LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[realbrickwall]

Basically, yeah. And there are plenty of groups that are as restrictive as L, G, or T, and there are plenty of transsexual and transgender groups that don't accept every kind of transsexual or transgender person...

So, yeah, long acronym is at the very least an attempt to be friendly. But it can't be the only friendly gesture we make. Having a good safe space in any community is hard work.

[azsf]

queer means out-of-alignment, broken, weird etc, and i like to use it in that fashion personally. some people get annoyed at that because they identify as queer, but then again some people don't like being called queer because it means broken/weird so what can you do

[maggerson]

My partner was a lesbian until she met me, and now she identifies as pan-sexual. however, she feels pretty ostracized from her old friend groups for no longer being a lesbian, and a little weird around my primary friend group (which is pretty much all hetero couples). i suspect the issue might be exactly like the one mentioned by cyingadena, that LGBT people keep their personal life to themselves around non LGBT people, while straights are more open in general. has anyone else gone through, or had a partner go through, a similar experience? how did you deal with it?

In my own experience in the LGBTQA community, there can be a lot of biphobia. Mostly this seems to stem from an "us" vs "them" mentality where a lesbian may feel betrayed if an ex partners up with a man. It's sometimes brushed off as a solidarity theme - like, "why would you go back to heteronormativity" and whatever - which is way uncool. There's also this awesome double-standard in the straight community where a bisexual woman could just be going through a phase, but a bisexual dude is automatically assumed to be gay but lying about it.

Really, the best advice I can offer here is for your ladyfriend to try to interact more closely with your primary friend group, or possibly even to try sitting down with her lesbian friends and having kind of a reverse coming-out talk.

Also can I just say how absolutely happy it makes me that you're all here? Seriously, thanks guys.

[azsf]

Really, the best advice I can offer here is for your ladyfriend to try to interact more closely with your primary friend group, or possibly even to try sitting down with her lesbian friends and having kind of a reverse coming-out talk.

Thanks for the advice maggerson (and thanks for making the thread!). This is what we've been talking about, and she's trying to reach out to her old friend group a little more. Fingers crossed hey!

[Unda]

In my own experience in the LGBTQA community, there can be a lot of biphobia. Mostly this seems to stem from an "us" vs "them" mentality where a lesbian may feel betrayed if an ex partners up with a man. It's sometimes brushed off as a solidarity theme - like, "why would you go back to heteronormativity" and whatever - which is way uncool. There's also this awesome double-standard in the straight community where a bisexual woman could just be going through a phase, but a bisexual dude is automatically assumed to be gay but lying about it.

Really, the best advice I can offer here is for your ladyfriend to try to interact more closely with your primary friend group, or possibly even to try sitting down with her lesbian friends and having kind of a reverse coming-out talk.

Also can I just say how absolutely happy it makes me that you're all here? Seriously, thanks guys.

bingo, as a bi girl I can attest that it's often really hard to be bi in that you feel like you don't belong in either group. I've never felt comfortable going to rallys because I'm married to a man and I worry what people will think. It get so ingrained that often I fear that people will critisise me for saying that I'm bi despite never having been with a woman, the reason for that is simply that I met my hubby when I was 17 and have been with only him since. I've only been with one other man and that was just before I met my hubby. But it's stupid because I still think about women as much as I think about men, if not more, and my first film crush was Uma Thurman as Poison Ivy *sigh* so I know what I am.

It's just stupid sometimes you know?

Again, thank you for making this space and it's nice to see that NF is just a whole nother level of awesome and accepting people. I think this is genuinely the best place on the internet. When people see sucky forums and people being dicks on the internet and wonder where all the nice people are... I guess it's cause they're all here instead!

[Lizifer]

bi guy, currently in a hetero relationship. i have a hard time dating guys, but i do enjoy them

Pretty sure one of the latest discussions was about a artinums partner, so it does come up. though i agree that most LGBT people stay quiet unless in a openly LGBT space. so hopefully this thread will bring that out? Because this thread was just listed as a 'space', im going to use it like the mens thread to ask for a little bit of random advice and get the ball rolling.

My partner was a lesbian until she met me, and now she identifies as pan-sexual. however, she feels pretty ostracized from her old friend groups for no longer being a lesbian, and a little weird around my primary friend group (which is pretty much all hetero couples). i suspect the issue might be exactly like the one mentioned by cyingadena, that LGBT people keep their personal life to themselves around non LGBT people, while straights are more open in general. has anyone else gone through, or had a partner go through, a similar experience? how did you deal with it?

Yay! Another "I like 'em, I just don't want to DATE 'em"-er!

This reminds me a LOT of the Chasing Amy conundrum I think more of us experience than most recognise: you may love being with your same gender, but going back to Kinsey: sexuality is a spectrum. It's tough to be ostracised from a community that you love and identify in due to what you do with your parts. In general, I don't discuss my queerness - I'm cisgendered woman in partnership with men. I don't read as gay to the community, but the straight side recognises me as "... off." I chose "queer" as my identifier because I don't fit as a lesbian, but I'm also 100% NOT het-normative. It's strange place to live, between the identifiers - that lack of a solid "belonging" can suck out loud sometimes.

I found that people open up a lot when in the presence of pop-culture references to which they can relate and open discussion - there have been an increasing number of movies that address unusual relationship paradigms outside the LGBTQA space that I've used as launching pads for those conversations. Plus, y'know: I live in the South, so there's a LOT of "Let's go to Chick-fil-A for lunch!" which gives me conversational gambits to get stuff rolling too for the primary group o' friends. As for her old friends, it might not be the worst idea ever for her to call up her besties from that group and say "hey, um, I kinda miss y'all since I started dating azsf. What's up?" over dinner and some tequila.

As a sidebar, I happened across this article today, which I thought was a rather nice piece for all of us, wherever we fall on teh spectrum.

[CyningaDena]

I'm not sure I see a tremendous difference in what you two are saying, weirdquark and CyningaDena. From weirdquark, I get that NFers choose what they disclose, and for some that does not involve their personal life at all. True statement, IMO. From CyningaDena, I get that when there is disclosure, however, it trends toward queer invisibility. Also true, and WQ seems to acknowledge that.

You are going to be such an excellent lawyer. Squee! Also, you are totally right.

I've always understood that "queer" is a derogatory term and should be avoided (unless using it as the original definition of "something out of the ordinary," and even then it is better to use "odd"). Has this changed? Is it ok to use the term in general public when referring to a non-hetero-aligned person (that's about as politically correct as I could get)? Or is this similar in sorts as the "N-word" used in reference to people of African descent (in other words, only acceptable to use by people who already identify as such, and not by anyone else)?

I wonder if we might should have the discussion of whether anyone participating finds the term offensive. Or perhaps the generational wheel has turned enough that it no longer carries such violent undertones. I dunno.

I tend to self-identify as queer because "gay" has come to mean an entire cluster of specific behaviors, attitudes, activities, tastes, and purchasing habits instead of just a description of who, roughly, I look to for a partner. It's become a legitimate consumer demographic, and any time some marketing wonk can ask, "What do the gays think," I get a little twitchy.

"Gay" also boils down an entire spectrum of human desire, eroticism, shifting preferences, changeable fantasies, sensuality, sexuality, and full-on shagging to just one axis -- male or female -- and then treats that one axis as if it's a legitimate description of something I am. Which I think is silly. "Queer," I think, at least tries to remain more flexible by not being limited to gay/straight (I have friends who identify as queer and are in heterosexual relationships) and by picking up political overtones of opposition to hetero-norm.

TL;DR -- Some people still find it offensive, mostly older folks, I've found (sorry to any strapping young lads and lasses I've just insulted!). Just have to feel out the crowd on that one. It's not a "reserved" word like the n-bomb, as long as you're using it as an honest descriptor.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

As a sidebar, I happened across this article today, which I thought was a rather nice piece for all of us, wherever we fall on teh spectrum.

Great article, perfect for this thread.

If someone makes the mistake of thinking you’re queer, too, and asks for your phone number, react like an adult and decline politely

I've had to do this at least twice and this is how I did it. For some reason I set off some poeple's gaydar now and again, no clue why. Maybe it's the way I tend to carry myself with my shoulders back for good posture?

[Lizifer]

I wonder if we might should have the discussion of whether anyone participating finds the term offensive. Or perhaps the generational wheel has turned enough that it no longer carries such violent undertones. I dunno.

I tend to self-identify as queer because "gay" has come to mean an entire cluster of specific behaviors, attitudes, activities, tastes, and purchasing habits instead of just a description of who, roughly, I look to for a partner. It's become a legitimate consumer demographic, and any time some marketing wonk can ask, "What do the gays think," I get a little twitchy.

"Gay" also boils down an entire spectrum of human desire, eroticism, shifting preferences, changeable fantasies, sensuality, sexuality, and full-on shagging to just one axis -- male or female -- and then treats that one axis as if it's a legitimate description of something I am. Which I think is silly. "Queer," I think, at least tries to remain more flexible by not being limited to gay/straight (I have friends who identify as queer and are in heterosexual relationships) and by picking up political overtones of opposition to hetero-norm.

TL;DR -- Some people still find it offensive, mostly older folks, {em added by Lizifer}I've found (sorry to any strapping young lads and lasses I've just insulted!). Just have to feel out the crowd on that one. It's not a "reserved" word like the n-bomb, as long as you're using it as an honest descriptor.

^this^

I've got a number of older gay male friends who take a fair amount of offense to my chosen nomenclature of "queer," having, in some cases, been at things like Stonewall. To them, it is a perjorative. To the younger gang, it's a "taking it back," along the straight-ish lines of Riot Grrls taking back "slut" and "****." I HATE the term "bi" because it feels like I'm attracted to genitals, and in conversations with friends over time, it seems in the community, "bi" also carries a connotation of "I date with equinamity between cisgenders." "Queer" is a less restrictive descriptor - CIS or no, dating or just for sexytimes, and a comfort level regardless of gender identity.

Additionally, I have a kinda knee-jerk reaction to the adult industry's co-opting of "lesbian" to define a bunch of stuff that neither I nor my friends identify with - it brings to mind a bunch of highly over-siliconed, made up straight-guy fantasies instead of my reality. I will own that may be a quirk I alone have, though *laugh*

[azsf]

The chasing amy conundrum hey? So youre saying i should try for a threesome with my partner and my housemate?

Read that article, was good. Though the vibe i got from it was kinda 'hey queer people can be jerks just like straight people, and they might not like you coming into their bar. Stop creeping maybe?'. Solid advice.

[Lizifer]

<snip>The chasing amy conundrum hey? So youre saying i should try for a threesome with my partner and my housemate? </snip>

Well, if everyone is down and no one is gonan freak out about being the freak in question...

I was meaning more the pronoun game convo she has when bagging and shipping her books, but if Banky's weird thing about chicks who say "aboot" gets your juices flowin', I won't judge... *laugh*

[andygates]

Aboot - so that's what the A stands for!

Just kidding, though the Scrabble-salad usually keeps me away as much as expected-behaviour stereotypes do.

Nerd moment: it's 20 years since Star Trek DS9. Dax. Sly non-gender-normative stuff from the Roddenberry camp if ever there was one.

[erawka]

Ohhhh Dax. (takes a moment)

Anyway.

I've had to do this at least twice and this is how I did it. For some reason I set off some poeple's gaydar now and again, no clue why. Maybe it's the way I tend to carry myself with my shoulders back for good posture?

CoreyD, my cousin's boyfriend (both straight) gets this all the time. Perhaps because he's a well-spoken, well-dressed, good looking man living in NYC working as a Broadway actor and dancer. Also with good posture. And an immaculately trimmed facial hair situation. My cousin has taken to saying he's "gay on paper" for all the reasons CyningaDena gave for avoiding the term "gay" -- in every way but sleeping with men, he fits the marketing profile. It's funny to me how just one signifier can trigger gay/lesbian/queer/something else in a stranger's mind. But yeah, you did well.

That said, I'm pretty androgynous, and pass for 17 year old boy pretty regularly. Makes for some unwanted digits once in a while, but hey. It's flattering.

Speaking of flattering, you're very kind, CD.

[erawka]

Additionally, I have a kinda knee-jerk reaction to the adult industry's co-opting of "lesbian" to define a bunch of stuff that neither I nor my friends identify with - it brings to mind a bunch of highly over-siliconed, made up straight-guy fantasies instead of my reality. I will own that may be a quirk I alone have, though *laugh*

But are they wearing Birkenstocks?

[nightlight]

But are they wearing Birkenstocks?

but i wear really *cute* birks. *grumble*

(just kidding)

[erawka]

So does my GF. THEY'RE SO SENSIBLE.

Cliche for a reason?

[maggerson]

but i wear really *cute* birks. *grumble*

Really, is there any other kind?

I think we definitely should have the "is queer an okay word" discussion, just to clear it up in the here and now so nobody's all flustered or offended. I use the terms "queer", "lesbian", and "gay" interchangeably when referring to myself, and I really have no qualms with the word unless it's clearly uttered in a manner that is meant to be derogatory or threatening. So, I think it's all about the context. Thoughts?

[lizzies387]

My partner was a lesbian until she met me, and now she identifies as pan-sexual. however, she feels pretty ostracized from her old friend groups for no longer being a lesbian, and a little weird around my primary friend group (which is pretty much all hetero couples). i suspect the issue might be exactly like the one mentioned by cyingadena, that LGBT people keep their personal life to themselves around non LGBT people, while straights are more open in general. has anyone else gone through, or had a partner go through, a similar experience? how did you deal with it?

i generally dislike specific labels because it has a tendency to lead to this, and i've notice a general prejudice that happens within the true blue "homo" community against say bisexuals or those who maybe fall closer to the middle of the Kinsey scale then the outer limits. when my lesbian friends had a hard time with it if they were trying i tried to be nice and merely say they were hurting me by acting they way they were but usually i had to explain it in a

"so your going to discriminate against me in the same way that homosexuals have been in the past? because i don't fit into your "norm" im no longer the same person i was before i told you was with someone of the opposite gender? isnt that like someone telling you when you came out that your not the same person?"

i think part of it does fall under the feeling you have to hide, i was way out in high school but then i decided to join the military and ended up a "victim" as it were of "don't ask don't tell" before i was allowed to join the marines. so i can understand the....jealousy that goes a long with that but i think the other part is that someone who is no longer i guess acting in a homo status quo has the ability to ...go back to the "straight" and "normal" side of life (which is bullshit unless they hide as well) having had a girl tell me she didn't want to marry me because it wouldn't be a normal marriage i can kind of see it from all sides

however i don't really think prejudice in any form is right and i usually try to get people to see it from my point of view by making it apply to them.

in the end though if her friends really completely ostracize her and refuse to let it go i think that maybe they weren't true friends to begin with. like Dr.Suess said "be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" ,<---im still working on living this everyday, and i apologize if i threw to many person experiences in there!

[lizzies387]

ah sorry that posted really late i dont know why =/

im with you maggerson and even generally identify as queer or "labels are stupid im just me!", and i think athena might be on to something! but can you imagine fund raising " hi yes im with QuILT GAB were raising money for *deep breath* Queer-Intersex-Lesbian-Trans-Gay-Asexual-Bisexual. issues" *wheeze*

[Raikas]

Do you know, if you play around with the abbreviation, you can get the more catchy "QuILT GAB" instead of alphabet soup? Queer, Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Gay, Asexual, Bisexual.

What do you think? *lol*

Heh.

Seriously though, since you mentioned it (although the original post didn't) there's a bit of controversy around the "i" part (the shifting terminology, social vs. medical, label co-opting), which is perhaps worth some discussion at some point, maybe?

[lizzies387]

probably the big thing to take from it though a lot of people take it for granted is there's a big difference in what you feel your gender is (even bi-gendered) and what you feel your sexuality is. i don't know if that would warrant 2 different discussions. i think specifically with "labels" in general it seems that anyone here isn't trying to be down putting or mean, so i hope if there's term/label/word someone has a problem with we can talk about it and not use it if need be.

[Raikas]

i think specifically with "labels" in general it seems that anyone here isn't trying to be down putting or mean, so i hope if there's term/label/word someone has a problem with we can talk about it and not use it if need be.

Oh, I agree. It's not that I'm saying it's necessarily a bad thing, but I do think it's a little problematic whenever I see someone write "GBLTI" without really thinking about what that means (especially in terms of advocacy since so many DSD/intersex issues have more in common with the disability movement than they do the GBLT one) . Not that I'm saying that's going to happen here (or that there aren't a pile of other commonalities), just that I think it's worth pointing out early on, just in case.

[lizzies387]

i think your absolutely right! honestly a lot of these issues overlap falling under then minority/other/not the social "norm" i also think you bring up a good point of people (in the best sense or best intentions) advocating for something maybe they don't completely understand. but i think i get that you mean we should be more careful with "intersex". does anyone have any terms that they've been called that might have made them hate that particular word? most of mine are more general derogatory words for the female gender (starts with a C rymes with runt?) or slut. nothing that might be more sexuality specific

[maggerson]

(especially in terms of advocacy since so many DSD/intersex issues have more in common with the disability movement than they do the GBLT one)

Here's where I reveal that I'm not the grand authority on all things non-heteronormative: this had never occurred to me. Although I suppose this is the definition of cis-privilege, yes?

And if you'll pardon my naivete, are identifying as "intersex" and identifying as "trans*" different things? Again, things that have never occurred to me to think about or discuss.

[lizzies387]

as far as i understand ( i tend to fall in the my gender is fluid category) though Raikas might be able to better. is intersex like raikas said is more to do with the physical body not being 100% male or female in terms of biological characteristics and less with the person identifies as , where transgendered is a man born into a biologically female body or a female born into a biologically male body (typically) i don't remember all the terms/words at the moment but ive also known people who have talked about creating/ have created more "gender neutral" pronouns in the language to cover those who maybe don't want to fall into the binary system of male/female. but im also not an epert on things and this is more from my personally experiences, people ive known, and what ive read.