Steroids, Anyone?

[Kvothe Gainskiller]

Alright, so I noticed that there wasn't really a true steroids discussion thread. Whether this is by design or by chance, I do not know, but let me make a few things very clear before I go on:

• This is not a "post your stacks here, bros"-type thread.
• This is not a place to post purchase or sale offers or places to buy PEDs of any kind.
• This is not a place to express your everlasting love or absolute hatred of steroids and those who do or do not use them.
• This is a thread for logical discussion on the morality and safety of steroid use, both in and outside of sports.

Now, since that has been made clear, the mods can feel free to remove this thread if it breaks any rules. I couldn't find any that address this issue, so I will carry on. Just, please, don't ban me; I like Nerd Fitness.

 

So, here are a few questions to guide you in your response (with an implied "why or why not?") :

1. What is your overall knowledge concerning steroids? If you want to shorten your response to this, use a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "what are steroids?" and 10 being a Ph.D. in Endocrinology and personal use for multiple years.
2. Do you think non-medical steroids should be legal? For whom should it be legal? What types of regulation should we have (high taxes, prescription only, free steroids for every man, woman, and child)?
3. In your eyes, what are the possible dangers of steroid use, both long term and short term? For what group of people would it be most dangerous?
4. What are the possible benefits of steroid use? Whom do you think would benefit most from the legalization of recreational use?
5. Do you think steroid use in professional sports is cheating? In collegiate sports? In amateur and high school sports? Recreational use by "Gym-rats," going only for teh gainz? Do you support it even if you consider it to be cheating?
6. Would you ever consider using them yourself if they were legal? If they were still illegal?

A few footnotes before I express my opinions:

• Any time the word "steroid" appears, it refers specifically to artificial anabolic hormones, not corticosteroids or PEDs in general.
• All references to legality assume US residency. If you live elsewhere, please preface your response with a synopsis of your country's laws.
• If you want any other questions available for general discussion, include them and your responses to them, and I'll probably include them in the original post.

Now for my opinions:

1. This whole thread started because I watched Bigger, Stronger, Faster*, and because I thirst for knowledge, I decided to research the subject for a while. That said, I am far from an Endocrinology Ph.D., and I've never used. I'd give myself a 4 or 5.
2. I do think they should be legal for recreational use. Not only could they provide tax income for our woefully underfunded country, they could be regulated in a way that they can't be now. It's essentially the same argument people use for the legalization of weed. Regulation would be high taxes and a limit on the quantities allowed to be purchased by a single person in a given amount of time. Users would also need to register as such.
3. The dangers are really unknown. One of the unfortunate side-effects of their illegality is that we aren't able to do studies on them; we have to rely on anecdotal evidence from the users themselves. We do know that the dangers have been exaggerated by the media, but that doesn't mean that they are safe. Right now, it hasn't been proven either way. That said, I don't think a decision to do steroids should be based on a lack of evidence that they are unsafe. But, like anything, there are safer ways to do steroids, and there are very unsafe ways to do them. They are prescribed by the medical community for certain conditions, so there is at least one way to do them safely. Determining whether they can be done safely without a medical condition requires research that we currently cannot do. However, much can be said for moderation. They would probably be most dangerous for those under 25 years old. Before then, the body is still developing, and during this development, it is better to be safe than sorry when talking about hormones.
4. There are some obvious benefits: strength and size increases, reduced recovery time after working out, and various psychological boosts. However, the greatest beneficiaries of legalization are less obvious. Because we are talking about legalizing recreational use, I can't include those who have medical conditions; they can already get steroids as a prescription. I suppose the greatest beneficiaries would be older folks who no longer produce enough hormones, but don't have a diagnosable condition and therefore can't get a prescription. Perhaps the only real beneficiary would be Big Pharma.
5. If cheating means "anything that is against the rules," then it's cheating if the sport's league prohibits it. However, if cheating is defined as "anything that gives an unfair advantage," it gets more complicated. If the majority of the players use steroids, then they are no longer an advantage. We all know that testing clean is not the same as being clean. Athletes can get around tests pretty easily. One obvious user who has always tested clean is Usain Bolt. He has broken records that were set by users who did not test clean. In other words, the best sprinters could take steroids and still lose to Bolt. This isn't really an attack on him; he is a genetic marvel, but so are the people who are using steroids and losing to him. TLDR: Steroids are only cheating if they give an unfair advantage. In some sports, you must use steroids to have any chance in competition. In these sports, not doing steroids is an unconquerable disadvantage. Therefore, I can't say steroid use in pro sports is really cheating. End TLDR. However, the line blurs further for collegiate athletes. Because college athletes have the best chance of being drafted into pro sports, they too must sometimes use steroids in order to be considered for pro sports. This is a really tough one for me. The possibility of a multi-million dollar contract makes it seem like pro sports, but because steroid users make up a smaller percentage of college athletes, I would call steroids an unfair advantage, and therefore cheating. For high school, I object for age reasons first, then because I consider it cheating. Nevertheless, steroid use in high school sports is definitely cheating.
6. I won't consider steroids for a long time. I estimate that I have about ten years before I reach my genetic potential. I'm also not on track to be a pro athlete, and I'm not really competing against anyone but myself. Regardless of legality, I won't use steroids for a long time, probably ever. That being said, I won't judge those who have reached their genetic potential or are in pro sports and then choose to use steroids.

Alright guys, keep it clean. I realize that my views may be too lenient for many of you, and I understand that. I encourage you all to reply to all the questions yourself before debating anyone else. Make sure that people know where you are coming from before you debate them on their views. Also, I may edit this post if I feel that I did not make something clear. I'll make it clear where I did this and why. 

[MadPict]

Alright, so I noticed that there wasn't really a true steroids discussion thread. Whether this is by design or by chance, I do not know, but let me make a few things very clear before I go on:

• This is not a "post your stacks here, bros"-type thread.
• This is not a place to post purchase or sale offers or places to buy PEDs of any kind.
• This is not a place to express your everlasting love or absolute hatred of steroids and those who do or do not use them.
• This is a thread for logical discussion on the morality and safety of steroid use, both in and outside of sports.

Now, since that has been made clear, the mods can feel free to remove this thread if it breaks any rules. I couldn't find any that address this issue, so I will carry on. Just, please, don't ban me; I like Nerd Fitness.

 

So, here are a few questions to guide you in your response (with an implied "why or why not?") :

1. What is your overall knowledge concerning steroids? If you want to shorten your response to this, use a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "what are steroids?" and 10 being a Ph.D. in Endocrinology and personal use for multiple years.
2. Do you think non-medical steroids should be legal? For whom should it be legal? What types of regulation should we have (high taxes, prescription only, free steroids for every man, woman, and child)?
3. In your eyes, what are the possible dangers of steroid use, both long term and short term? For what group of people would it be most dangerous?
4. What are the possible benefits of steroid use? Whom do you think would benefit most from the legalization of recreational use?
5. Do you think steroid use in professional sports is cheating? In collegiate sports? In amateur and high school sports? Recreational use by "Gym-rats," going only for teh gainz? Do you support it even if you consider it to be cheating?
6. Would you ever consider using them yourself if they were legal? If they were still illegal?

A few footnotes before I express my opinions:

• Any time the word "steroid" appears, it refers specifically to artificial anabolic hormones, not corticosteroids or PEDs in general.
• All references to legality assume US residency. If you live elsewhere, please preface your response with a synopsis of your country's laws.
• If you want any other questions available for general discussion, include them and your responses to them, and I'll probably include them in the original post.

 

I shall attempt to answer, my knowledge base is reasonable (if a tad spotty) and filled out with observations, and people I know on them, or who have used. I shall discount stories from said people, as everyone has a 'friend of a friend who...'. Additionally, I have no intrest if you dear reader, are using steroids or not. I could not, conceivably care less about it, so I won't discount someones opinion just because they use steroids, or have used them. Onward to my answers.

 

1) Knowledge base, BSc Biology, some people known who have used for 2 or more years (under discounted), background reading based on own intrest.

 

2) Difficult to fairly answer. Most governments drug policy, in my opinion, is based entirely on alot of spinning on the spot and seeing what they fall onto. I think they have a place as testosterone replacement for people with a deficit, and given that sperm counts are dropping, and serum testosterone too in the western world, they may have a place. However, that raises a question on follicle stimulating hormone, which steroids can lower. This helpful hormone encourages sperm production. Over use may result in simply switching one problem for another.

 

3) Depends on the usage. From what I have gathered, high steroid doses, and continual use cycles tend to drop life expectancy nicely into the 50's or early 60's. Heart problems seem to be pretty likely too. On the flip side, I know of two lads who have been running cycles semi continually for years who are apparently in good health (get their blood work done). They tend to hover around 220-230lbs though, so no 300lb behemoths. There seems to be a hard limit on how heavy the human body can be and still function normally.

 

4) Benefits? Well, PED's, Performance Enhancing Drugs have their benefits subtly hidden in the name. As to steroids, more rapid muscle growth (if doing the work), enhanced recovery, feeling of well being (some times).

 

5) On cheating. I think it depends entirely on the sport. If a sport, or meet is 'clean', meaning no PED's, no steroids, I think it is only correct that it should be so. Keeps things level for all concerned. On the flip side, if it is not specified, people should be allowed to go crazy. I would much prefer if the olypmics were split into a 'clean' and 'anything goes' style tournament. However, it is human nature to cheat. I guess if everyone is cheating, and you are not, you could feel good, but never win anything.  That then leads onto a question of the importance of said competition. I would offer that professional sports, where huge sums of money are involved, going crazy could be the only way to do it. A backyard meet of powerlifters? That should be clean, or at least honest about whats going off.

 

6) Prohormones are legal over here. Would I consider them? Yes. Would I use them? No point at the moment as getting beginners gains.

 

I shall knock together a second post on the post cycle stuff, problems and niggles steriods seem to cause later.

[MalleusMaleficarum]

1. What is your overall knowledge concerning steroids?

 

Probably a 5 or 6. I'm really scientifically literate but I don't have topical knowledge other than that a lot of them are testosterone analogues modified to have longer biological half life.

 

2. Do you think non-medical steroids should be legal? For whom should it be legal? What types of regulation should we have (high taxes, prescription only, free steroids for every man, woman, and child)?

 

I don't really care. 

 

3. In your eyes, what are the possible dangers of steroid use, both long term and short term? For what group of people would it be most dangerous?

 

People can say what they want about "doing it safely" but people who use steroids have this habit of dropping dead of heart attacks at absurdly young ages. There's also some really goofy side effects like getting purple sores all over the backs of your arms, enlarged organs, liver problems etcetera that probably have to do with specific drugs I don't know about individually, but just as a rule some goofy and tragic things can happen to a person's body when they start manually tweaking hormone levels. Obviously people are going to do everything possible to try to be safe, but there is basically no upper limit on long term consequences.

 

4. What are the possible benefits of steroid use? Whom do you think would benefit most from the legalization of recreational use?

 

Getting swole and strong, obviously. Who will benefit most is hard to say.

 

5. Do you think steroid use in professional sports is cheating? In collegiate sports? In amateur and high school sports? Recreational use by "Gym-rats," going only for teh gainz? Do you support it even if you consider it to be cheating?

Would you ever consider using them yourself if they were legal? If they were still illegal?

 

 

I don't know that I'd call it cheating but I don't know that I'd call it "not cheating" either. Seems to me that what happens is that when enough competitors in anything (i.e. strongman, NFL) start doping, you now HAVE to dope to keep up. Considering the risk of life long harm to the body, I don't think it's right that people should be forced via competition intensity to take steroids.

 

 

I wouldn't take steroids for any reason other than as part of intensive medical treatment. I'm far too holistic of a person to get involved in something like that. I want to be extremely fit and healthy independent of the need to consume any specific substance by the time I'm 50, and steroids aren't in line with that goal at all. Never ever even if I was paid.

[Noitca]

1.  What is your overall knowledge concerning steroids? If you want to shorten your response to this, use a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "what are steroids?" and 10 being a Ph.D. in Endocrinology and personal use for multiple years.

 

I would say somewhere in the lower middle.  3-5 perhaps?  5 being the extreme high.

 

2.  Do you think non-medical steroids should be legal? For whom should it be legal? What types of regulation should we have (high taxes, prescription only, free steroids for every man, woman, and child)?

 

Need to see more testing to fully answer this question.  To my limited knowledge, certain drugs are controlled because of they are very addictive and have adverse affects when mixed with other legal substances (alcohol) and long term use poses a documented risk to the user's life. 

 

IMO, general over the counter use should remain illegal until it is proven that they do not pose a threat to the general population while under the direct influence.  For example, someone takes a dose/shot/whatever..  downs a shot of alcohol... then goes for a drive.  ?  Not intoxicated beyond legal limit, but remaining within the legal limits of drinking and driving (BAC below 0.08).

 

3.  In your eyes, what are the possible dangers of steroid use, both long term and short term? For what group of people would it be most dangerous?

 

Short term, probably very little.  Long term, really don't know.  I have "feelings" about long term affects, but I really think those are more imposed by popular reaction to them, more than scientific fact.  I do find the anecdotal evidence to be alarming though.  Professional wrestlers going into depression and getting suicidal.  Known users dying fairly young.  However, along with that, these people have also done some strange things to their body, and would be difficult to blame all their issues that lead to their deaths solely on steroid use.

 

4.  What are the possible benefits of steroid use? Whom do you think would benefit most from the legalization of recreational use?

 

I think pop-culture has skewed what everyone thinks steroids actually do.  Direct benefit:  reduced recovery/healing time.  Basically, I think they make you more like Wolverine!  The "jacked muscle effect" that everyone thinks steroids actually do is a side effect, because those individuals choose to recover from lifting weights and not some other activity. 

 

IMO, look at baseball's steroid list.  There are individuals on there that are muscle bound idiots, like Barry Bonds (not saying that muscle bound steroid users are all idiots, but Barry Bonds is an idiot, as well Clemens, Canseco, and plenty of others).  There are others on there that just look like normal dudes who play baseball.  Guys like Ryan Franklin or Jay Gibbons are skinny to super skinny dudes. No way would you pass them on the street and think "steroid user". 

 

Who benefits the most?  The person who gains an advantage recovering closer to 100% in short order.  Thus why it is such an attraction in  professional sports that have long seasons and/or take a huge toll on the body.  I don't expect there to be an explosion of steroids use in golf. 

 

5.  Do you think steroid use in professional sports is cheating? In collegiate sports? In amateur and high school sports? Recreational use by "Gym-rats," going only for teh gainz? Do you support it even if you consider it to be cheating?

 

Cheating? YES!  Period.

 

I am and will remain 100% against steroid use in competitive sports for many  reasons.  One of them is that I don't think you can draw the line of where you begin to accept it.  Let's entertain allowing it beginning in high school.  First off, I KNOW that use would show up before the high school level.  Overzealous parents "getting their kids ready".  PLUS, if you allow it, and it clearly gives an advantage.. then basically the average player is going to be on them.  So, in order to compete at an average level, you must also be on them.  Then quality comes into play.  Are some better than others? (I don't know)  Now throw in expense? (are they/would they be generally expensive to begin with?)  If there is a quality difference, I would assume there is also a cost difference.  Now you have introduced affluence into the team sport (as if it wasn't there to begin with, but this would amplify it).  Families/schools with a bigger budget can perform better, regardless of the talent they have on the field.  Not good.  And all of this is neglecting the affects that they could have on a developing kids body.

 

6.  Would you ever consider using them yourself if they were legal? If they were still illegal?

 

No.  I would not.  Even if they were legal.

 

Side comments:

Bigger, Faster, Stronger was awesome.  Very eye opening to steroid use in general and I thought was fairly balanced in providing both sides of the story and not too much to one or the other (pro vs. anti).

I do laugh at the notion that someone who is using steroids for strength use is "cheating" some how or putting in less effort than someone who doesn't.  I think more often that someone on steroids and is lifting weights is working harder than the average person.

[Waldo]

1. Eh, I'd say 7-8. I've never closely known users personally nor have myself, but consider myself extremely well read on all aspects of diet and performance and understand the biology quite well.

2. Yes they should be legal. Prohibition of drugs is absolutely out of control in this country (and all of western society). The cartel of doctors and drug companies have things on absolute lockdown to ensure their pockets receive continuous filling. The risks associated with steroids (and almost all PEDs plus recreational drugs) is grossly exaggerated (and there are A LOT of benefits that are kept from people). Some of the most dangerous drugs are perfectly legal, but barely anyone does them because of the danger (datura/nightshade/etc..).

3. The dangers? Being an idiot, using too much for too long when too young, messing up your natural hormonal system. Idiots can own guns, which are far beyond anything else on the danger scale; if idiots are to be trusted with guns, they should be trusted with anything.

4. The main benefits would fall into two broad categories, TRT and recovery. I would wager that less than 25% of men (and women, women can be deficient too and it causes issues) that would benefit from TRT actually have a doctor recognize it, can afford it, and do something about it. You can't watch TV without seeing a constant barrage of hard-on pills, a lot of that target audience would benefit even more from TRT. Low dose testosterone would really help a lot of people live better lives. The other place where there would be a serious benefit is recovery. Aspirin takes the pain away and does little else (anti-inflammatory properties actually SLOW healing), steriods speed up the healing process. A cortisone shot to help injuries heal is standard procedure for many injuries, more people should have easy access to this. Every little injury doesn't require a doctor; if I sprain my ankle real good or develop bicep tendonitis, there is no point in going to the doctor except for a cortisone shot. What if only doctors could give out band-aids?

5. Cheating, no. You still have to do the work. What defines what is and isn't cheating is downright silly. Trying to maintain this gray area middle ground is just plain stupid because the best are simply the ones that are the best at not getting caught. Some people win the genetic lottery and produce an overabundance of test/GH, and they can naturally become famous athletes because their potential is so much higher.

Other people win the genetic lottery and are gifted with extremely high IQ's. What happens when "drugs" are developed that would verifyably boost IQ by a significant amount with minimal to moderate side effects even with abuse, virtually no side effects with proper low dosage use? Should these be illegal to all except those that can get docs to sign off on them being exceptionally dumb? What happens if a user would happen to win the nobel prize in physics, would it be asterisked because he used PED's?

6. If legal an readily available? Sure. At least for recovery. I don't really see a point personally for growth/performance enhancement, however I do not have low T, if anything mine is actually high for my age. If I had low T I would definitely consider it, however spending the rest of your life on pills/drugs is not a decision to be taken lightly (brushed up against this concept when a little younger but stopped after a few years (nothing to do with steroids though), doctors are way too eager to push people toward this, especially (and shamefully so) kids).

I'm very libertarian when it comes to gov't control of drugs/chemicals that have little danger outside of self-harm, keep that in mind; I'm very much an all drugs should be legal and available kind of person, whether limited availability drugs a la the pharmacy or banned recreational drugs.

[Zorch]

1. What is your overall knowledge concerning steroids?  3-4ish. I consider myself more well-read on most topics than the majority of people, but not having delved seriously into this particular topic, I can't compare myself to someone who has used, trained people who have used, or really researched the subject.

Do you think non-medical steroids should be legal? For whom should it be legal? What types of regulation should we have?  Tricky question.  I think the potential for abuse and people screwing themselves up is substantial - though I'm generally of the libertarian mindset in that I believe that things that could hurt an individual, but do not put others at risk, should be legal.  Of course, I believe in the process it's important to have more open information on the subject with regard to risks and side effects(conventional drug ads don't cut it here), so that individuals can make informed decisions.

In your eyes, what are the possible dangers of steroid use, both long term and short term? For what group of people would it be most dangerous?  Short-term, there are minor effects such as acne - but the biggest danger may be any emotional disturbances associated with hormonal upset(the legendary "roid rage").  Longer-term, the risk is disruption to one's endocrine system, which can have all kinds of nasty side-effects.

What are the possible benefits of steroid use? Whom do you think would benefit most from the legalization of recreational use?  Benefits are primarily improved recovery and muscle gain.  Biggest winners would be folks with marginal testosterone, but not enough to get a formal diagnosis/prescription, older folks who have trouble building muscle mass, but could substantially benefit from it, and individuals looking to regain strength/functionality when recovering from injuries.

Do you think steroid use in professional sports is cheating? In collegiate sports? In amateur and high school sports? Recreational use by "Gym-rats," going only for teh gainz? Do you support it even if you consider it to be cheating?  "Cheating" is a tricky discussion - by my definition it's when one person is playing by a different set of rules from everyone else.  In that context, a steroid user competing with nonusers in a sport where steroids are banned is "cheating", but in a sport where something is not explicitly illegal, using it is not "cheating".  Thus gymgoers aren't ever "cheating" - the guy that wants to look like a beast isn't costing the non-user anything, so no harm, no foul.  Just don't be a douche and lie about it.

Would you ever consider using them yourself if they were legal? If they were still illegal? Honestly, I'd have to research the subject a bit more to understand if I think I could reasonably use them safely.  I'm not a goody-two-shoes, follow-the-law-to-the-letter kind of person, but I also don't believe in taking stupid risks.  I'm not opposed to it on any kind of moral grounds.  Though admittedly, there's more than a little a bit of pride attached to being able to say "I built this body with hard work, nutrition, and nothing else".

[Jolt]

1. I'd say 8ish. Am an M.D. but it's been a while since my endocrinology exams. I'd rate myself higher for different contexts.

2. I'm leaning towards legal with a mandatory consult as to proper use. Most of the ill effects I've seen at work (and there has been more than a few) could probably be linked to misuse,overdosing, bad product etc. Much of this could likely be avoided in a regulated, legal setting.

3.I would see young men as the major risk group. I have seen cardiac and vascular complications unattributable to other causes in the OR. That said, much of the danger comes from misuse(doing it wrong) rather than doing it per se.

4. Many and varied. However most of the users I've met in person could easily have made the same gains without, in my opinion, had they put in the effort. The quality of life benefits possible from treating a manifest deficiency are another thing altogether.

5. If the agreed upon rules say no PED, then yes. But the rules about PED make very little sense.

6. I might take them to treat deficiency, but I doubt I will ever need to take them for athletic reasons. I'm simply not in a league where I need those last performance percentages. And safe or not, a pragmatic rule of thumb for pharmaceuticals is "if there is an effect there's a risk of side effects".

[Shortgorilla]

1. I dunno, 5-ish?  I've read plenty, but I'm not stupid enough to think I'm knowledgeable enough to discuss them in a bio-chemical sense.

Steroids and all other drugs should be legal and controlled.

The dangers vary depending on the drug in question.  Some do elevate aggression, some elevate unwanted hormones, some cause hair loss, etc.  Long term side effects and damage?  There don't appear to be too many, unless your talking heavy doses of oral compounds.  But then again the long term studies are also gravely lacking.

Almost everyone (or anyone willing to use them) would benefit from their legality.  They offer immune system benefits, and obvious performance and body composition benefits.

The only thing that would be cheating is having robot parts or having someone/something do the physical work for you.  You still have to train and put in the hours and effort.  You still have to put yourself through years of determined anguish to achieve anything.

Honestly?  I would use steroids in a heartbeat if it were an option for me.  But due to the illegal status of them I won't put my family or my career in jeapordy for the sake of 'dem gainz.'  But personally I don't see any reason not to implement whatever means available to improve yourself.  Are they necessary?  Absolutely not.  Would they be great to have?  Absolutely.