Ever Heard of the Hero's Journey?

[timbarber142]

John Romaniello did a really good writeup of it over at the Art of Manliness (it's written in a way that applies to women, too)

 

I was just wondering if this is something that you guys have ever heard of or if you've ever tried to use it for your own benefit before. I'm really starting to get into it!

[DrVornoff]

Been reading Joseph Campbell for years, so yes.  It was introduced to me by a high school English teacher.

 

The Hero's Journey is a concept that I fear most people have trivialized in their minds by boiling it down to a formula rather than Campbell's intended deconstruction.  One of the single best depictions I've ever seen of the Hero's Journey in recent media was in fact Journey.  Extra Credits did a whole episode about this on YouTube a couple years ago.

[timbarber142]

I can't believe I missed this reply!

 

I agree, that taking it as a simple formula is doing it a disservice.

I also think that a lot of the nuance gets lost when it's cut and paste and then built around. in the EC episode some time ago, that attitude of â€You got an awesome sword? Now kill ALL THE THINGS!†was so indicative of most depictions.

 

I've been trying to find ways to view my life and my own goals and aspirations that way. A lot of behavior change seems to be making the black really black and the white really white. To make the Point A, the Ordinary World, as bland and uninteresting as possible, and then making the Point B something either amazingly wonderful or gravely important. I think fitness is both, and the Ordinary World of pizza and sedentary living is utterly uncompelling in comparison.

 

I loved Journey especially because of the way that this compelling story structure was laid out all with no dialog or script, and yet we can still understand it and be compelled by it. It underpins how we approach and understand stories.

[Miw_Sher]

I have heard of it, yes, though I never read the original work describing it so I can't say I really know it. I have never thought of applying it to my own life, though or to my own benefit. Sounds intriguing though. Could you give some examples maybe?

[Strickland5]

For me the Hero's Journey makes me think Star Wars

[Vella]

As a writer, I have kind of a knee-jerk reaction to the Hero's Journey, because while I think it's interesting and informative, and a good tool for thinking about stories, I have had so many people recommend I write my stories around it, or "must" follow it to have a compelling narrative ... as you said, missing the point.

It might also have something to do with the fact that fantasy scholars are still obsessed with Freud and they insist on bringing Freud into the Hero's Journey (even though tHJ is more Jungian), which makes interpretations simplistic, reductionist and vaguely to blatantly sexist (in both directions) (more so than some of the steps about renouncing the mother and killing the father that are in there and can be interpreted ... well or badly).

[/rant]

Sorry, this made up a lot of my university life last year, and I'm still kind of recovering

 

That said, I'd be interested to see some techniques of applying it to fitness.  What sort of things did you envision?

[Miw_Sher]

 

It might also have something to do with the fact that fantasy scholars are still obsessed with Freud and they insist on bringing Freud into the Hero's Journey (even though tHJ is more Jungian), which makes interpretations simplistic, reductionist and vaguely to blatantly sexist (in both directions) (more so than some of the steps about renouncing the mother and killing the father that are in there and can be interpreted ... well or badly).

[/rant]

 

Right… 

Although butchering complex theories seems to be rather common, especially when it comes to philosophers and Jung is not exonerated from it. I am seeing the MBTI become rather popular for character creation now, and while I can see how it can be a useful tool, I have also see people assume that you need to have all 16 personality types in your story to make it balanced. Which, in theory, could actually be an interesting challenge as a writer, if you commit to doing it well. Otherwise you will end up with cardboard characters regardless of what deep psychological tool you are using. (controversies about the MBTI aside)

[Vella]

 

 

Right… 

Although butchering complex theories seems to be rather common, especially when it comes to philosophers and Jung is not exonerated from it. I am seeing the MBTI become rather popular for character creation now, and while I can see how it can be a useful tool, I have also see people assume that you need to have all 16 personality types in your story to make it balanced. Which, in theory, could actually be an interesting challenge as a writer, if you commit to doing it well. Otherwise you will end up with cardboard characters regardless of what deep psychological tool you are using. (controversies about the MBTI aside)

 

 

Oh heck yes.  MBTI is a great tool ... but it's not the be-all and end-all of a character.  Each combo has its own nuances and it's limiting to just stick with those 16.

 

I didn't mean to imply that Jung was not used poorly also, just that Freud was emphasised and then simplified for interpreting tHJ more than Jung, despite the prominence of Jung's theories in the original idea of tHJ.

[Miw_Sher]

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that Jung was not used poorly also, just that Freud was emphasised and then simplified for interpreting tHJ more than Jung, despite the prominence of Jung's theories in the original idea of tHJ.

 

 

Oh, I didn't interpret it that way at all! I was merely expanding on your comment since it rand very true. Sorry if it came across that way.

The "Right…" was a comment of desperation towards people trying to see Freud everywhere, by the way. Not on your analysis. I have become slightly sensitive towards these kinds of interpretations after spending six months doing film analysis at university… there were some moments when I seriously considered ditching my thesis in favour of an analysis of the different interpretations of a film. It seems a rule of thumb that 9 times out of 10 whenever an analysis contains the words "Freud" or "freudian" or "freudian analysis" you can expect to end up like this:

Without wanting to diss Freud or his work or anything. It is just some of the ways he is, as you said, emphasised and simplified and shoehorned into anything that make me go brain-dead.

[Vella]

 

 

 

Oh, I didn't interpret it that way at all! I was merely expanding on your comment since it rand very true. Sorry if it came across that way.

The "Right…" was a comment of desperation towards people trying to see Freud everywhere, by the way. Not on your analysis. I have become slightly sensitive towards these kinds of interpretations after spending six months doing film analysis at university… there were some moments when I seriously considered ditching my thesis in favour of an analysis of the different interpretations of a film. It seems a rule of thumb that 9 times out of 10 whenever an analysis contains the words "Freud" or "freudian" or "freudian analysis" you can expect to end up like this:

Without wanting to diss Freud or his work or anything. It is just some of the ways he is, as you said, emphasised and simplified and shoehorned into anything that make me go brain-dead.

 

 

I feel your pain.  Do you film folks also get the people attempting to explain that while Freud has been discredited, he's still totally relevant to fiction somehow?  Because that seemed to be a major theme for my research last year...

 

But I feel like this has gotten off topic. Apologies, people who aren't really interested in film and literary theory's relationship to discredited psychologists.

[Miw_Sher]

I feel your pain.  Do you film folks also get the people attempting to explain that while Freud has been discredited, he's still totally relevant to fiction somehow?  Because that seemed to be a major theme for my research last year...

 

But I feel like this has gotten off topic. Apologies, people who aren't really interested in film and literary theory's relationship to discredited psychologists.

Nah, or rather – people don't even attempt to explain, they just go ahead an analyse stuff from a Freudian perspective. Or they do their own analysis and then compare it to Freud's own.

I will also stop hijacking this thread now – apologies from me as well!

Soo… about using the Heroes Journey for Fitness…?

 

[hybrid756]

I remember asking my mum when I was about 10 'how do I know if I know myself?'

 

She sent me off with a pile of Joseph Campbell books.

 

And yes, I do think it's been over used in fiction as a cookie-cutter way of writing characters. I'm no film or literary nerd, but I can see how it's popularity has lent itself to a writing-by-numbers approach. There are so many more intricacies in it. 

 

I guess I do apply it to my challenges too! If you read any of the themed challenge threads on here about the hero of the challenge venturing out from their normal world, finding out what the elixir is that they want to bring back, their meetings with mentors and tricksters and various other characters... in fact NF has Hero's Journey written all over it, now I think about it

 

For me the Hero's Journey makes me think Star Wars

 

And maybe this is why! 

 

(PS: check it out: Star Wars: The Magic of Myth)

[DrVornoff]

Wow, really should have paid closer attention to this thread.

 

I've been trying to find ways to view my life and my own goals and aspirations that way. A lot of behavior change seems to be making the black really black and the white really white. To make the Point A, the Ordinary World, as bland and uninteresting as possible, and then making the Point B something either amazingly wonderful or gravely important. I think fitness is both, and the Ordinary World of pizza and sedentary living is utterly uncompelling in comparison.

 

Campbell actually wrote a few books on this subject, such as "Myths to Live By."  I haven't gotten them through my reading list yet.  I've had to sidetrack some of my personal interests the last couple of years to learn more about business and marketing out of necessity.

 

Although butchering complex theories seems to be rather common, especially when it comes to philosophers and Jung is not exonerated from it. I am seeing the MBTI become rather popular for character creation now, and while I can see how it can be a useful tool, I have also see people assume that you need to have all 16 personality types in your story to make it balanced. Which, in theory, could actually be an interesting challenge as a writer, if you commit to doing it well. Otherwise you will end up with cardboard characters regardless of what deep psychological tool you are using. (controversies about the MBTI aside)

 

 

I quite like Jung myself, which is why it always hurts to see his work dressed up in woo-woo bullshit.  Vice recently did a short documentary on ex-gay therapy and what a load of crap it is and hearing these counselors abusing Jung's ideas was like nails on a chalkboard.  Every now and again, I've found some philosophical takes on Jung that had interesting ideas, but most of it is just so much hot air and nonsense.

 

As for MBTI, it's a great system, but like any other personality type rubric it only gives you the broad strokes.  I'm writing a web series right now and while I have used the MBTI to help sketch out the characters, it's nothing more than a nice reference point at the end of the day.

 

It really burns my stones to see useful ideas like the MBTI and monomyth being reduced to templates, blunt objects in the hack writer's toolbox.

[Grifball]

I'd never heard of this before. Read that article and just ordered the book off Amazon. Gave me an excuse to order a new charging cable and cast iron skillet too. Thanks for posting this!

[timbarber142]

I should have paid closer attention too! I had been taking an internet fast for awhile, so I missed all of the progress and conversation!

 

The most interesting part for me is seeing it as kind of a framework for change and development. As a front-to-back method for successfully undertaking huge life changes.

Something about understanding the fact that you live in your Ordinary World, which is comfortable and familiar, if not exceptional or fulfilling. Stepping outside of that, crossing that threshold, and rejecting what you used to do, what everyone else does can be scary, but staying in it should be even scarier.

And then undergoing all of the Trials, the difficulties, finding Allies, meeting the Mentor, etc.

 

It just seems like a great way to view your own life and the things you want to accomplish.

We don't often stop to think about the fact that we're the hero of our own story, and that we have the tools to decide how it's told.

 

With fitness, all of these great case studies on NF, all of the amazing, inspiring examples of what people can accomplish to better their health - in these we have a promise of what lies beyond the Threshold, you know? The potential to do something greater -- to reach the Special World and be irrevocably changed.

 

That got kind of rambly - I hope it makes sense. Has anybody ever thought of that?

[DrVornoff]

A part that's often overlooked in that is the return home.  After being changed by his journey, the hero now has new vision, power and wisdom that he can impart to the people.  Through the hero's journey, civilization is an ever-ascending spiral of progression with each generation building upon and surpassing the accomplishments of the last.  The fact that this site exists is testament to that.

[timbarber142]

Agreed wholeheartedly! I think the closest analog I have for that is finding people who were once in the same â€Ordinary World†as you, and choosing to, as you said, impart that knowledge and wisdom.

 

The hero doesn't return to the Ordinary World in the sense that they return to the same way of life, they resolve the end of their journey with teaching others who are where they were before they crossed the threshold.

 

I've totally fallen in love with this idea, you guys. I love it!

[DrVornoff]

I dug up the Extra Credits episodes on Journey for anyone who's interested.

 

[Strickland5]

Then Guillermo Del Toro says ... (NSFW things behind spoiler)

 

[DrVornoff]

And del Toro is technically correct, but there's a little bit more to it than that.  He's not the first person to echo that sentiment.  Charlie Parker once said, "Master the instrument, master the music, then forget that shit and just play."  Other great creators have similarly echoed something along the lines of, "Learn everything about your craft, then forget all of it."

 

But here's the thing of it: most people skip over the learning part.  Del Toro has read Campbell, I guarantee you.  He's also no doubt read Jung, McLuhan and many others.  He has the knowledge and the tools, but more importantly he knows when and when not to use them.  And you cannot have that understanding without having made the commitment to study first.

 

John Coltrane started out as a technical wizard on the saxophone but a pretty mediocre soloist.  His first solo album Giant Steps had some unsure footing and while it has been recognized now as the start of something big in jazz, it's not his strongest work.  It was in his later works when he finally started breaking every rule and doing what he felt was right for the song that he was hailed as a genius.

 

Knowing the steps in the hero's journey without understanding what makes them important results in formulaic bullshit like Battleship and The Amazing Spider-Man.  On the other hand, complete ignorance of media theory leads to pandering, banal horseshit like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey.  To quote Order of the Stick, "There is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with a weapon."

[timbarber142]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I've kind of done a deep-dive into this idea. I need someplace to kind of brain dump, and you all seem to love this stuff as much as I do!

 

(Listening to "Concerning Hobbits" from the LotR soundtrack.)

 

As for putting it to use in our personal lives, more specifically with respect to fitness, I tend to think of my whole fitness plan as a journey, and each workout as a sort of mini-journey.

As for the long-term one, I lived in my Ordinary World - a world of 12 cans of Dr Pepper a day, frequent Taco Bell runs, and slumped over posture while I played video games. I heard the Call - saw an old friend of mine who'd dropped like 40 pounds of fat while packing on muscle - and wondered for a moment if I could do it too.

Refused the call - clinging for dear life to my sedentary / junk food lifestyle. As nerds, we tend to be very smart, and very creative - all the better to come up with every excuse in the book to not do something, right?

 

Anyway, I finally did Cross the Threshold, and I'm now facing Trials, Allies, and Enemies. I anticipate them, and have a plan for how to react when I face them. I feel like the Approach is when I can see (measurably) that I'm halfway to where I really want to be. To where the end goal is. There's so much that awaits me, but thinking about it in these terms has been radically helpful to know where I am in the greater scheme of progress - and to kind of know what I can ignore for now.

As highlighted above, it's pretty easy to become an underpants gnome.

 

So that's long-term... on the workout-by-workout basis, I grapple every morning with the slightest of thoughts that I don't want to go to the gym. I refuse the call. But there's an inevitability to my crossing the threshold which has allowed me to kind of let the complaints and excuses wash away and be replaced by what I've already decided to do. I mean, after all I've done this so many times before, why should I fail now?

 

Approach is when I'm running through the last superset of my workout - I'm close to the finish line, and I just need to push through it. I think of seeing the tower of Barad-Dur and Mount Doom - I can see where I need to get to.

 

I guess the Road Back only sucks on leg day - It's hard to walk back to the car. Haha.

 

Anyway - does that resonate with anybody?