Fat Shaming/Fat Acceptance Movement

[Hit]

 

 

Being female is one of my deal breakers, that doesn't make me a homophobe. You are attracted to what you are attracted to, it is largely hardwired, you can only consciously manipulate this to some degree. What you are naturally attracted to and not attracted to is not wrong.

 

Well that depends entirely on how you expressed that sentiment - "fuck off faggot i aint no queer" would be you expressing that men are a deal breaker for you in a super homophobic way. Same if you took home a "mid height white girl that is athletic and strong, but still curvy", then she told you she was a post-op trans woman and you flipped your shit, then you'd be transphobic. 

The point here is that if a deal-breaking feature is something that doesn't actually represent that person as any more than belonging to a certain group (ie skin colour, a penis, body size) then your issue is no longer about what your attracted to but what attributes you associate with said feature. You associate a penis with male-ness, and are not interested in pursuring men, so the presence of one is a deal breaker. You associate being with fat with an inactive lifestyle, and as an active person are not interested in pursuing inactive people, so fat people are a deal breaker. Now complete this sentence:

 

I associate dark skin with [non-racist reason] and are not interested in pursuing [non-racist reason], so the presence of dark skin is a deal breaker.

 

And then go read this study: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark

 

 

 

The problems I have with the whole fat acceptance movement are mostly the same problems I have with feminism and the majority of the gay rights movement. 

 

Those darn marginalized groups, always causing problems for the nice, clean, straight-cis-white men. 

[Machete]

They have small d**ks

 

Wait, for real? They don't like this? Well, everything suddenly makes sense to me now...

 

I read an article about a writer who couldn't get her romance novel approved because the protagonist was Asian. The guy had to be a European dude who was adopted into an Asian family from Asia, complete with the Asian name. He just couldn't be Asian ethnically. (Probably because of my small penis.)

 

I do personally think it's a little racist to exclude an entire ethnic group from possible attraction before one even has sufficient data to support one's hypothesis. It's heuristic and operates in the same way that racism does, but not necessarily in an illegal way. I'm not saying that people who exclude entire demographics are bad people, I just think that they are making a hasty generalization by doing so (and I don't think there's anything practically wrong with that). Me, I try to minimize the number of deal-breakers that I have as much as possible. Attraction isn't a choice, and I can't tell when it will happen; I can only tell when it is there. "Human" isn't even a prerequisite anymore, thanks to Zoe Saldana.

 

[Phytomancer]

Wait, for real? They don't like this? Well, everything suddenly makes sense to me now...

 

I read an article about a writer who couldn't get her romance novel approved because the protagonist was Asian. The guy had to be a European dude who was adopted into an Asian family from Asia, complete with the Asian name. He just couldn't be Asian ethnically. (Probably because of my small penis.)

 

I do personally think it's a little racist to exclude an entire ethnic group from possible attraction before one even has sufficient data to support one's hypothesis. It's heuristic and operates in the same way that racism does, but not necessarily in an illegal way. I'm not saying that people who exclude entire demographics are bad people, I just think that they are making a hasty generalization by doing so (and I don't think there's anything practically wrong with that). Me, I try to minimize the number of deal-breakers that I have as much as possible. Attraction isn't a choice, and I can't tell when it will happen; I can only tell when it is there. "Human" isn't even a prerequisite anymore, thanks to Zoe Saldana.

 

 

Yep. I actually read romance. It's odd for men, but I'm not into stereotypes. It bugs me a lot that all the protagonists are objectified white men. The cover usually doesn't even have a face. Just a chest and abs.

 

So yeah, Asian men are pretty much rejected in romance genre. So is fat men, short men, men who prioritize work and family. Men who don't have a washboard abs. Men who ain't white. And we wonder why romance fan are all into white men with 'piercing blue eyes'. with a chest that 'pushed out against his shirt.'

 

I do have a deal breaker myself (hateful, distrust, disloyal, etc.) so I can't say much. However, I agree that eliminating an entire race is a bit much.

[insanity]

 

 

Those darn marginalized groups, always causing problems for the nice, clean, straight-cis-white men. 

So lets in response, marginalize them, while ignoring any complaints they may have and throw them under the bus for the actions of a few members of that group, and then expect them to support us in our fight.

 

It's thoughts like this that make it hard to be an ally, granted I don't throw the entire group under the bus and know that there are good people out there that balance it out, like the guy I met this last weekend.

 

Ironically enough, you appear to be ok with groups marginalizing you, so long as they're a member of another marginalized group. Unless you don't think straight black men, straight black women, or straight white women do it as well.

[Hit]

Ironically enough, you appear to be ok with groups marginalizing you, so long as they're a member of another marginalized group.

Either you dont understand sarcasm, or this is some amazing double cross satire. I mean i know youre an mra and all, but damn kid. Be smarter than that.

[StillWaters]

Eh, I think you are pushing this a bit too far. Most people don't know WHY they are or aren't attracted to someone, they just aren't. Trying to fit an explanation to it leads to things like this. If a girls "type" is big burly Scots or Scandinavians, your 6'2 250 lb built like a tank type, any explanation as to why she isn't attracted to Asians is going to sound racist, chances are she's never met or seen one that really blew up her skirt like her type. I realize this is an extreme example and reality is far more subtle, but everyone has this attraction bias, some people have it very strong, but attempts to explain it are usually poorly worded and pitiful.

 

So the next time I see or experience a black man telling a black woman that "No offense, but I don't date black women. I don't think they are attractive." its because its "hardwired" into him? I'm supposed to believe that his comment comes from a place that is not internalized racism as the result of a western culture that puts European beauty standards up on a pedestal and systematically conditions black girls from a young age to believe that the way they naturally look is ugly and unwanted even by male members of their own ethnicity?

 

There is hardwired attraction, and then there is social conditioning, and once we move away from sexual orientation, it increasingly become difficult to tell the difference between the two. 

[Zorch]

So lets in response, marginalize them, while ignoring any complaints they may have and throw them under the bus for the actions of a few members of that group, and then expect them to support us in our fight.

 

It's thoughts like this that make it hard to be an ally, granted I don't throw the entire group under the bus and know that there are good people out there that balance it out, like the guy I met this last weekend.

 

Ironically enough, you appear to be ok with groups marginalizing you, so long as they're a member of another marginalized group. Unless you don't think straight black men, straight black women, or straight white women do it as well.

I think her post was in response to the sentiment expressed below:

 

 

The problems I have with the whole fat acceptance movement are mostly the same problems I have with feminism and the majority of the gay rights movement.  There are probably great people connected to all three, but they're massively drowned out by screeching harpies who are dragging other worthwhile causes down, or belittling everyone around them, to make their cause seem more worthy.

 

I think the mistake in the above statement is to confuse the loudest members of a movement with the entirety of the group.  The loudest members of a group are, almost by definition, not representative of the group at large, and they, by this same definition, are often of the "vocal minority" within said group.

 

My experience is the opposite - the vast majority of feminists/gay rights advocates/fat acceptance advocates are determined, but are focused on making things better for their cause, instead of making the news or getting hits on a website.  However, those that usually show up on the news/with websites, etc. are generally those with the strongest feelings, or who feel that they are best suited to speak for a large, non-homogenous group of people - they are sometimes aligned with the mainstream movement, but often times not.  To draw an analogy, did Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell represent the views of all Christians?  Thankfully, not even close.

 

One of the primary(disgusting) tactics often used to discredit a group is to focus on vocal fringe members of a group and use those members to pain the entire group in a negative light.  Don't fall into that trap.

[insanity]

I think her post was in response to the sentiment expressed below:

 

 

I think the mistake in the above statement is to confuse the loudest members of a movement with the entirety of the group.  The loudest members of a group are, almost by definition, not representative of the group at large, and they, by this same definition, are often of the "vocal minority" within said group.

 

My experience is the opposite - the vast majority of feminists/gay rights advocates/fat acceptance advocates are determined, but are focused on making things better for their cause, instead of making the news or getting hits on a website.  However, those that usually show up on the news/with websites, etc. are generally those with the strongest feelings, or who feel that they are best suited to speak for a large, non-homogenous group of people - they are sometimes aligned with the mainstream movement, but often times not.  To draw an analogy, did Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell represent the views of all Christians?  Thankfully, not even close.

 

One of the primary(disgusting) tactics often used to discredit a group is to focus on vocal fringe members of a group and use those members to pain the entire group in a negative light.  Don't fall into that trap.

The problem is she does the same thing that the post finds issue with. Dismissing an entire group, based on the actions of a few... it's not the first time she's said stuff like that.

 

and I don't fall into that trap, like I said, met a pretty cool dude this past weekend. I don't fully know him yet, so he might be one of those "Vocal minority" but as of now, he's just another member of the group... just so happens to have a husband at home. Now that I think about it, there's practically every group represented and my FNM get together... no trans or lesbians, that I know about but other than that.

 

 

Either you dont understand sarcasm, or this is some amazing double cross satire. I mean i know youre an mra and all, but damn kid. Be smarter than that.

Not an MRA, it just get's irritating to constantly here things like "Oh you're just a guy, who cares" or "You don't know what it's like to be *insert variable here* " then to be expected to support those very same people in their own fights...

[Estrix]

Just because you're a member of a minority/fringe group/whatever doesn't mean you're not a douche. No movement should be protected from criticism, and its members should not be protected from criticism either just for belonging to said group.

[Hit]

Sorry insanity i didnt mean to offend you with my low brow* attempt at humour.

Just because you're a member of a minority/fringe group/whatever doesn't mean you're not a douche. No movement should be protected from criticism, and its members should not be protected from criticism either just for belonging to said group.

Yup. But if you say "this member of x group was a douche, hence all of x group are douches" you start running into problems. Which was the attitude i was mocking above.

Its also the attitude i took umbrage with in regards to saying "all members of x group are unattractive to me". So you know, consistency and all that.

But do feel free to walk away thinking im a douche. Im sure theres plenty of people here who would agree with you.

[Estrix]

...

Yup. But if you say "this member of x group was a douche, hence all of x group are douches" you start running into problems. Which was the attitude i was mocking above.

Its also the attitude i took umbrage with in regards to saying "all members of x group are unattractive to me". So you know, consistency and all that.

But do feel free to walk away thinking im a douche. Im sure theres plenty of people here who would agree with you.

 

Sorry, to clarify, I'm not aiming that at anyone. It was mostly just the point that often the loudest, craziest and most extreme indviduals in a group will attempt to hide/cower behind the group. They wil claim that simply being in said minority/ fringe group, should protect them from critisism. And this seems to work far more than it realy should. And, in  my opinion, this is what allows quite extreme views to proliferate within these groups.

[insanity]

Sorry insanity i didnt mean to offend you with my low brow* attempt at humour.

 

*cheers*

 

Less offended, just more irritated.. I don't see those as the same.

 

It wouldn't be so bad, if the reverse was taken as just a joke as well. Which adds to the irritation... :-)

[Hit]

Well if he comes back and says he was joking, ill accept your point. But Im not holding my breath.

[insanity]

Well if he comes back and says he was joking, ill accept your point. But Im not holding my breath.

In her defense, you didn't quote the whole section.

 

The problems I have with the whole fat acceptance movement are mostly the same problems I have with feminism and the majority of the gay rights movement.  There are probably great people connected to all three, but they're massively drowned out by screeching harpies who are dragging other worthwhile causes down, or belittling everyone around them, to make their cause seem more worthy.  

 

 

 

She wasn't dismissing the entire group on the basis of a few, but merely pointing out that the vocal minority bring down the entire group by belitting others or dragging other causes down, much like your comment above, while apparently sarcastic, dismisses any complaints straight white men may have.

[Machete]

Yep. I actually read romance. It's odd for men, but I'm not into stereotypes. It bugs me a lot that all the protagonists are objectified white men. The cover usually doesn't even have a face. Just a chest and abs.

 

So yeah, Asian men are pretty much rejected in romance genre. So is fat men, short men, men who prioritize work and family. Men who don't have a washboard abs. Men who ain't white. And we wonder why romance fan are all into white men with 'piercing blue eyes'. with a chest that 'pushed out against his shirt.'

 

I do have a deal breaker myself (hateful, distrust, disloyal, etc.) so I can't say much. However, I agree that eliminating an entire race is a bit much.

 

#TeamJacobForLife

 

So the next time I see or experience a black man telling a black woman that "No offense, but I don't date black women. I don't think they are attractive." its because its "hardwired" into him? I'm supposed to believe that his comment comes from a place that is not internalized racism as the result of a western culture that puts European beauty standards up on a pedestal and systematically conditions black girls from a young age to believe that the way they naturally look is ugly and unwanted even by male members of their own ethnicity?

 

There is hardwired attraction, and then there is social conditioning, and once we move away from sexual orientation, it increasingly become difficult to tell the difference between the two. 

 

Priming seems to lead to a lot of self-fulfilling prophecies. Some minorities have this subconscious voice telling them that being with a white woman is a sign that they have "made it". (That may be the reason why there are so many single black women in D.C.) Profiling may not be as common, but racism (to some degree) is definitely still there. Just look at the comments section of interracial porn videos.

 

We don't even have to limit it to race. Quite a few homosexuals still deny their sexuality and their attraction to one sex or the other because their social environment has primed them for so many years to think that they are straight, and possibly that homosexuality is bad. We hear all these "dirty gay secrets" from prominent individuals coming out, and at times macho guys we know saying "I'm not a homophobe or anything, but I'm just not attracted to dudes" yet at some point growing very confused about all these feelings they are having, then subsequently trying to banish those gay thoughts.

 

 

I'm not telling people not to knock it until they try it or anything. But I do support being open and honest with oneself. Constantly having to adjust to social pressure is such a bummer sometimes.

 

[Phytomancer]

I don't know about there not being Asain role models in screen and tv. I really like Chow Yun-Fat. Not just in his western movies but his Asain stuff as well, he first came to my attention in Crouching Tiger. Then again I don't restrict my movies to just English speaking mainstream drivel.

 

Chow Yun-Fat did some awesome thing like Crouching Tiger... he also became a cultural appropriation piece in Hollywood (Bullet Proof, saying that Asian culture is dying out and white kids have to appropriate them, cuz there is no deserving young Asians, not even females), and portrayed a respected Thai King as a old womanizer against the objection of real Thai people in a movie that come from the book I'll call a century-old Twilight Saga. Thai people in that movie speak a butchered Thai language and perform a butchered Thai culture for entertainment that most Thais didn't consent (I can write an essay on this alone).

 

But I do get your point, there are some fascinating Asians characters in Asia. Japan, Korea, and China have some good Asian role models. They just usually don't make it to the US. And Hollywood movies are made to fame that even Thai actors in movies and dramas now are mostly half whites. Thai kids suffer the 'whiter' complex, and now there are so many 'whitening' creams on the market. Many of them under the market, containing toxic things like mercury or heavy metal until it turns pale blue. That's how damaging it is. And it's not in Thailand alone.  

 

I am not an Asian American man and will never claim to be (Just an alien), but if a person can't find a good identity in the world surrounding him growing up, you can't expect him to be confident against hate and stereotypes. Some will, but not all. 

[Machete]

^ Whitening cream is a concept that a lot of people here apparently cannot fathom (and for good reason). Miss India wasn't even good enough. She was too dark.

 

[Hit]

First - sorry for getting pronouns wrong there.

Second -

She wasn't dismissing the entire group on the basis of a few, but merely pointing out that the vocal minority bring down the entire group

And subsequently calls that her problem with THE GROUP AS A WHOLE. Thats her entire argument. And you just pointed it out and still somehow missed it.

Three - im done talking to you. I stood up and apologized to foster good faith here, but you wanna throw that back in my face anyway. You're not worth the words. Yes offence.

[Phytomancer]

^ Whitening cream is a concept that a lot of people here apparently cannot fathom (and for good reason). Miss India wasn't even good enough. She was too dark.

 

 

 

Now... whitening for a person who is already pale!

[Noname123]

Now... whitening for a person who is already pale!

 

This is such an odd concept to me as most super pale people I know (and I'm nearly a ghost) in the US spend huge amounts of money on tanning beds, sunning themselves and tanning lotions. Most girls/women I know want to be darker without any wrinkles in the US region I'm based in. 

[insanity]

First - sorry for getting pronouns wrong there.

Second -

And subsequently calls that her problem with THE GROUP AS A WHOLE. Thats her entire argument. And you just pointed it out and still somehow missed it.

Three - im done talking to you. I stood up and apologized to foster good faith here, but you wanna throw that back in my face anyway. You're not worth the words. Yes offence.

Then I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't see it as a problem with the group as a whole, just pointing out that the problem is with a few, that as a result bring down the efforts of the many.

 

and was merely using your comment as an example, since it was close by, of what I was talking about.

Edit: Just got back to my desk, I apologize if you see it as throwing it back in your face. That wasn't my intention.

[Trewest]

This is such an odd concept to me as most super pale people I know (and I'm nearly a ghost) in the US spend huge amounts of money on tanning beds, sunning themselves and tanning lotions. Most girls/women I know want to be darker without any wrinkles in the US region I'm based in. 

 

As one of those that are so pale I glow under blacklight, I can tell you that I don't mind my paleness, except on my belly and legs. Places where I feel like the uber pale colour will make them stick out, and thus somehow equate to a beache whale look. It doesn't help that a common descriptor for seriously pale skin is 'fish belly white'. Not a sexy mental image.

 

Now I'm left wondering if when I get down to my goal weight/shape/fitness, will I care that I am so pale that you can follow my veins from wrist to heart?

[Noname123]

Now I'm left wondering if when I get down to my goal weight/shape/fitness, will I care that I am so pale that you can follow my veins from wrist to heart?

 

I'm trying to figure out how I can not blind people at the beach this summer without increasing chances of skin cancer/aging it. I unfortunately I have some VERY prominent veins and crazy pale skin, esp the legs....and everywhere else that doesn't get sun year round. I can trace viens from the top of my big toe through my legs, over my belly, chest.....I look like a roadmap. Kinda cool if you want to study anatomy. Really not a cool beach look (unless someone else is taking an anatomy class I guess). 

[Trewest]

I'm trying to figure out how I can not blind people at the beach this summer without increasing chances of skin cancer/aging it. I unfortunately I have some VERY prominent veins and crazy pale skin, esp the legs....and everywhere else that doesn't get sun year round. I can trace viens from the top of my big toe through my legs, over my belly, chest.....I look like a roadmap. Kinda cool if you want to study anatomy. Really not a cool beach look (unless someone else is taking an anatomy class I guess). 

 

Ah, my fellow glowstick, I feel your pain. Of course it doesn't help that when I do get a little bit of sun, I go tomato red, and then back to deathly white with freckles. I know a lot of fitness models use the rub in tan to help get that extra 'defined' look, so I wonder how much my discomfort with my paleness comes from that feeling that I am gooey instead of cut?

[Noname123]

 Miss India wasn't even good enough. She was too dark.

 

 

 

I have to say I can't find a single thing on that woman I would change, she is perfect- I'm always floored at how people want to change things in others to fit their view of what is beautiful. 

 

 

 

Meanwhile I'm over here trying to keep whats under my skin from showing.