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The IF/Leangains Mutual Support Thread


scotticus

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I'm not going to reply on AJ_rock's behalf, but I will suggest that you pick a few wrestlers whose form you might want to emulate and see if you can find out what they're doing. Obviously, you're not them so just doing what they do won't be the be all and end all, but it might give you some other ideas. I remember reading on CnP a while back that Triple H uses some form of ketogenic diet to stay lean AND huge. In short, more research, good sir :)

First triple h isn't that lean. he's just huge. Second a lot of wrestlers (HHH included) use(d) steroids. Wether they admit it publically or not. Third I only want another 10 lbs but want to be lean. I think this can help me yeah? And honestly it's just too convenient for me to live eating all my calories at the evening than throughout the whole day. So this really is a lifestyle that appeals to me.

So what is the reason I shouldn't do this? To me it is simply just way too convenient.

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First triple h isn't that lean. he's just huge. Second a lot of wrestlers (HHH included) use(d) steroids. Wether they admit it publically or not. Third I only want another 10 lbs but want to be lean. I think this can help me yeah? And honestly it's just too convenient for me to live eating all my calories at the evening than throughout the whole day. So this really is a lifestyle that appeals to me.

So what is the reason I shouldn't do this? To me it is simply just way too convenient.

Thing one, the pic that CnP posted of Triple H was of him in pretty lean (pronounced muscle separation) and still huge form.

Thing two, I don't think anyone's suggesting that you shouldn't try leangains/IF per se. The issue is just that if your training volume is really high and you don't (or can't) cycle rest/work days it doesn't work as well. The reason for this is that when you're running a caloric deficit without adequate rest, you can't recover properly. Then you get overtrained, burnt-out, and that's when muscle and stregth loss happens.

The bottom line is that you can't get by on recovery day macros if you're doing four hours per day of wrestling training or whatever. If that's the case, you need more carbs and calories every day in order to a) have the energy to train a hard as you need to and B) not use your precious muscle as fuel.

Based on your training program it sounds like you might have better success with something else.

Also, check out Martin from leangains - he's big, ripped beyond all reason, AND 100% natural.

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I have another question to pose. Say someone does work out 5 days a week but still wants to utilize Lean Gains. What if some days were done on "rest" days. Would this be detrimental? Just curious. :)

Strength training + rest day style calories would mean you'd burn both fat and muscle that day.

You gotta experiment to find out what works for you.
PM me with any questions about, well, anything! :)
Current challenge: Catspaw Starts Strong

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Strength training + rest day style calories would mean you'd burn both fat and muscle that day.

So in order to maximize the program you would need to eat your 20% over every single workout day, even if that meant five days a week, and do your unders on true rest days? All that really means is that you're going to lose weight slower, right?

The old believe everything; the middle aged suspect everything: the young know everything.

~Oscar Wilde

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okay. here is my training schedule (typically)

Sunday Four hours of wrestling training. some cardio. lots of pushups and squats and crunches. just a good sweaty workout.

Monday (if i'm not too beat from my training day) then I lift weights.

Tuesday lift.

Weds off

thursday and friday lift.

saturday off.

Does this make sense? So that said i don't know if that is too much training. maybe it is. I dunno. You guys know a lot more about it than I do.

Also last night i did my workouts but in the Reverse pyramind style as Martin prescribes and it kicked my ass. Seriously i'm hurting so bad right now. :D

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okay. here is my training schedule (typically)

Sunday Four hours of wrestling training. some cardio. lots of pushups and squats and crunches. just a good sweaty workout.

Monday (if i'm not too beat from my training day) then I lift weights.

Tuesday lift.

Weds off

thursday and friday lift.

saturday off.

Does this make sense? So that said i don't know if that is too much training. maybe it is. I dunno. You guys know a lot more about it than I do.

Also last night i did my workouts but in the Reverse pyramind style as Martin prescribes and it kicked my ass. Seriously i'm hurting so bad right now. :D

Seems doable - you'd just have to experiment with the macros a bit to acheive the fat loss you want. I'm not an expert, by my initial thought would be to limit the caloric surplus on training days (i.e. keep it in the low-moderate surplus range) and be pretty agressive with the rest days... could work.

Also, since you have a "maybe" workout on Monday you could develop a system for dealing with that - eat mid-range calories/macros or eat like a training day if you train, rest day if you rest. It might not be the optimal system, but you would still benefit from the daily fast, some macro cycling, etc.

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Strength training + rest day style calories would mean you'd burn both fat and muscle that day.

Not only that but it would destroy your recovery abilities, leading to illness, burnout, crappy workout sessions and when combined with muscle catabolism, loss of strength and additional lean mass. Definitely not a win...

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Seems doable - you'd just have to experiment with the macros a bit to acheive the fat loss you want. I'm not an expert, by my initial thought would be to limit the caloric surplus on training days (i.e. keep it in the low-moderate surplus range) and be pretty agressive with the rest days... could work.

Also, since you have a "maybe" workout on Monday you could develop a system for dealing with that - eat mid-range calories/macros or eat like a training day if you train, rest day if you rest. It might not be the optimal system, but you would still benefit from the daily fast, some macro cycling, etc.

So this makes me wonder. What is the necessity of eating one way on a training day and another on a rest day? What benefit does that cause?

Why more on training and less on rest? Is it not an "average" of calories that is taken into account and not a day to day thing? I'm not sure I'm asking properly but....why would say 3k calories every day not be okay? why is it different i guess is what I'm getting at. I keep trying to read the lean gains site but it keeps locking up on my browser at work (no idea why). So i can't really get through it for the info needed.

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So this makes me wonder. What is the necessity of eating one way on a training day and another on a rest day? What benefit does that cause?

Why more on training and less on rest? Is it not an "average" of calories that is taken into account and not a day to day thing? I'm not sure I'm asking properly but....why would say 3k calories every day not be okay? why is it different i guess is what I'm getting at. I keep trying to read the lean gains site but it keeps locking up on my browser at work (no idea why). So i can't really get through it for the info needed.

Check out the "why is leangains so effective?" link in the OP. It pretty much covers all the bases.

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read it once. and now as i'm reading it again i'm realzing things i didn't notice or overlooked or just simply did not understand...either way i'm seeing things that make more sense now. I'll read this about 9 times and it will finally click.

Hear, hear!

The old believe everything; the middle aged suspect everything: the young know everything.

~Oscar Wilde

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Ok, I'm back to chime in. Doesn't anyone WORK around here... ? :P

First, anyone who gets lean on a keto diet is probably doing a CKD. Which kind of reverses most IF principles, in that on 3/4 work-out days, you eat very little and work very hard, metabolically. Then you eat like a pig while resting, have one MONSTER strength workout, then rest day again. Rinse and repeat. I did something similar during the fall/winter, and it's a crazy way to eat/train. Effective, but exhausting. It could also be TKD. Rather than explain all the concepts (I'd be here until I came in to work again tomorrow -_-), Lyle McD has tons of info regarding all keto diets. He even wrote a monster 300 page tomb on the subject, exhaustive, thorough, and dry.

Second, Leangains craps out on explorer for some reason. Better off viewing using chrome. Keep reading it though. Like I said, it's subtle metabolism manipulations that do it, and you won't see results as quickly as doing traditional bulking/cutting.

Third, for your training purposes, one day of cardio won't get you very far. Like weight training, chronic, consistent stimulus must be applied over time. One day simply isn't enough to make your body adapt. Heavy strength training will do good things for your anaerobic systems, but you won't have much in the way of endurance.

Anyway, for your goals, you can still make progress both ways even if you exercise 4-5 days a week. But IF is already kinda slow at 3 days a week, and more working days will slow fat loss. Endurance type cardio *may* help you in that regard though.

If I had to really recommend something, I'd say something along the lines of easy day / hard day, rather than work/no work. High level athletes train most days of the week, but some days are easy, and some are hard. Easy would be couple sets of high-ish reps or LISS cardio, hard would be 5x5 or HIIT or something like that. Honestly, if your goal is extraordinary, you're gonna need some extraordinary planning, which means have a coach plan out this stuff for you. Not to say I or anyone else here is wrong, but like, you need somebody to guide you. The absolute worst person to gauge an athlete's level of overtraining is the athlete themself.

Fourth, @ monsieur Wade: like I mentioned above, a system of easy day hard day would serve you better if the concept of 'rest' does not exist in your dictionary :P

In general, if you want a more 'laissez faire' approach to your workouts, measure your heart rate upon waking every morning. Know your baseline. If it's <110% baseline, go as hard as you want that day while working out. If its 110%+, take it easy, maybe have a rest day. A high resting heart rate is indicitive of the heart having to do extra work because it's falling behind on nutritional supply.

Of course, HR variability is a much better indicator, but you need a HR monitor for that :)

Why must I put a name on the foods I choose to eat and how I choose to eat them? Rather than tell people that I eat according to someone else's arbitrary rules, I'd rather just tell them, I eat healthy. And no, my diet does not have a name.My daily battle log!

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that is a lot to read. I don't think i want extreme gains or changes. I'm at 15% bf now. and 192lbs. so gaining 8-10 lbs while burning 5-6% bf. is that really so impossible?

Also I have no qualms with switching how many days I workout for the results I want. I spend my days doing things such as (wresltling is all bw stuff) 2 or 3 days doing heavy lifting, (bench, deadlift, squat ohp with some dumbell stuff) and then one day now doing complexes. So barbell work but much lighter. Like I said yesterday I followed martin's reverse pyramid program and it was great. I flew through my workout. it was hard. it left me sweating like crazy and I loved it. So that will continue as well.

Does that help? or am i just beating the same dead horse over and over again? SHould i just leave this discussion and go do roids? (joking)

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Lol well it WOULD work :P but still not recommended.

In terms of workload, lets just say that if you think you can handle it/ARE handling, just do it. Take what you've learned and apply it. If bad things happen or you're just spinning your wheels, come back to it and we'll dig a little deeper. I do think we've pretty much exhausted the knowledge base to work from here though.

Why must I put a name on the foods I choose to eat and how I choose to eat them? Rather than tell people that I eat according to someone else's arbitrary rules, I'd rather just tell them, I eat healthy. And no, my diet does not have a name.My daily battle log!

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Lol well it WOULD work :P but still not recommended.

In terms of workload, lets just say that if you think you can handle it/ARE handling, just do it. Take what you've learned and apply it. If bad things happen or you're just spinning your wheels, come back to it and we'll dig a little deeper. I do think we've pretty much exhausted the knowledge base to work from here though.

I feel like you guys are convincing me NOT to do this. Probably because there is something I'm not fully understanding. Truth is i'm going to probably switch to eating all my food only at night as it's just too convenient. I'm going to stick to a mostly paleo diet and make sure I eat enough to give me the calories needed. I'm going to continue to lift and work my ass off in the gym and in class and I guess see what happens. *shrug*. Regardless I'll be better off than I ever was before so I'm not worried about it. I have until october 27th to hit my goal so I think i can work it out by then.

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I feel like you guys are convincing me NOT to do this. Probably because there is something I'm not fully understanding. Truth is i'm going to probably switch to eating all my food only at night as it's just too convenient. I'm going to stick to a mostly paleo diet and make sure I eat enough to give me the calories needed. I'm going to continue to lift and work my ass off in the gym and in class and I guess see what happens. *shrug*. Regardless I'll be better off than I ever was before so I'm not worried about it. I have until october 27th to hit my goal so I think i can work it out by then.

It doesn't seem like that to me, it's just seems like leangains is a very specific program and you are trying to alter it, which is fine, but difficult. I think the idea of doing +5% on workout days and -10% on rest days would work for you. Like it was mentioned, leangains != IF. Leangains utilizes IF. So, you can do IF without doing the caloric deficit and surplus on alternating days.

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It doesn't seem like that to me, it's just seems like leangains is a very specific program and you are trying to alter it, which is fine, but difficult. I think the idea of doing +5% on workout days and -10% on rest days would work for you. Like it was mentioned, leangains != IF. Leangains utilizes IF. So, you can do IF without doing the caloric deficit and surplus on alternating days.

This!

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I feel like you guys are convincing me NOT to do this. Probably because there is something I'm not fully understanding. Truth is i'm going to probably switch to eating all my food only at night as it's just too convenient. I'm going to stick to a mostly paleo diet and make sure I eat enough to give me the calories needed. I'm going to continue to lift and work my ass off in the gym and in class and I guess see what happens. *shrug*. Regardless I'll be better off than I ever was before so I'm not worried about it. I have until october 27th to hit my goal so I think i can work it out by then.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your thinking here. There's no hard and fast rule that says you must eat at a certain time in order to achieve your goals.

At the end of the day, it's still calories in/calories out. Try this way of eating for a few weeks, gauge your progress, then make your adjustments as needed.

The old believe everything; the middle aged suspect everything: the young know everything.

~Oscar Wilde

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I don't think there's anything wrong with your thinking here. There's no hard and fast rule that says you must eat at a certain time in order to achieve your goals.

At the end of the day, it's still calories in/calories out. Try this way of eating for a few weeks, gauge your progress, then make your adjustments as needed.

Exactly. N = 1. Try and see if it works for you. If it doesn't, make adjustments. If It does, great.

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All right, so, since this is the place to be for Leangains-related stuff, I figure I might as well post some progress.

At the end of one week of properly following the protocol, I have managed to cut myself from 16.3% bodyfat down to 12.7%. This according to skin fold caliper measurements. My weight has dropped from 172 lbs down to 170.

Two things that were immensely helpful to making this work were the calculator and the Daily Burn tracking app, which is free.

This week was mostly about dialing it in and getting used to getting the proper macro amounts on the recommended days. I've been getting my body used to eating lots of protein again, which is a very fine process apparently. Anything in the 100-110 region seems to be just fine. I go too far beyond that range, and it's paint-peeling time.

I also wasn't perfect in hitting the exact macro amounts each day. I'd underestimated the carb load in a full pack of vegetables, not to mention that most nuts which are good for fat come with some carbohydrates as well. There were also a few days this week where I went out to do fast food. The past couple days I did, in particular, due to friends and work respectively, and those two days absolutely wrecked my ratios for the day.

It really puts things in perspective. I had no idea I was taking in so many calories and wrecking my ratios so thoroughly whenever I went out. Friday in particular, I went out to Wendy's and ordered more than I should have. I ended up starting the fast early to make up for it and pulled... I think a 19 or 20 hour fast to make up for it. I think that mitigated the damage somewhat, and doing karate that night helped to burn some of the extra off. Even so. I think I'mma start going for smaller things when I go out to those places.

On the other hand, though, I've actually found the past week to be a lot of fun. Putting together the right foods for me to eat that day is like playing Tetris: the Leangains Edition, and eating this way has allowed me to put a lot of variety back into my diet that I had lost and didn't realize I was missing.

My exercises are coming along as well, but this is a diet thread so I won't change the subject.

So, while this has been an exciting week, I suspect that this is equivalent to newbie gains in a strength training program. Newbie losses, I guess? Well, regardless, I suspect this is going to get harder in the next week, since I'll only have a couple of days for strength training to work with. Still, that just makes it interesting, right? :)

How's everyone else doing?

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