Mad Hatter's tea party

[Lara]

On 17/11/2017 at 8:04 AM, Mad Hatter said:

I do find flexibility training really, really interesting as there are so many misconceptions about what it is, and in general our knowledge about it is really slim compared to strength or endurance training.

While most people think it's just this boring thing where you flop around a bit that you're supposed to do after a workout.  

Being flexible helps with absolutely everything in our lives, how did we ended thinking it's just something we do to stretch our muscles after a workout?

I remember when I began the FF program and after only a few days of hip work I noticed I had more range of movement at something as simple as walking. Until that moment I always thought "stretching" was equal to "relaxing".

 

15 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Woke up at 6:45 (I'm all over the place this week!) and tried to handstands

Hardcore 

 

10 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

And the thought that one day when we start our own NF circus, I want to be a part of it

 

6 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

If NF did that I would totally run away and join the circus

And I'll be there too... in the audience...  

[Elastigirl]

6 hours ago, zenLara said:

And I'll be there too... in the audience...  

. WolverineLara is part of the act. We will dip you in an giant tank of ice water and amaze the world at how long you can just hang out in the ice.

[Echoceanic]

On 18/11/2017 at 11:28 AM, zenLara said:

I remember when I began the FF program and after only a few days of hip work I noticed I had more range of movement at something as simple as walking. Until that moment I always thought "stretching" was equal to "relaxing".

 

I can attest to this.

Heck I don't do that much flexibility training (the most is trying to touch my toes) and after just a few weeks of bodyweight workouts  I advanced so much it freaked me out.

[raptron]

NF Circus, yesss.

[Mad Hatter]

Yeaah NF circus  

 

On 11/18/2017 at 6:45 PM, Elastigirl said:

. WolverineLara is part of the act. We will dip you in an giant tank of ice water and amaze the world at how long you can just hang out in the ice.

Haha brilliant!  

 

On 11/18/2017 at 12:28 PM, zenLara said:

Being flexible helps with absolutely everything in our lives, how did we ended thinking it's just something we do to stretch our muscles after a workout?

 

Sure, but there's a point where you have adequate mobility and any extra is unnecessary and hard to maintain. Sadly this doesn't apply to most people, so many people don't even have the baseline mobility required for basic human function, like walking, running, hanging and squatting...

[Mad Hatter]

Saturday 18 Nov and Sunday 19 Nov

 

My brain broke. I didn't put on clothes. It was no fun. My brain is dumb.

 

Monday 20 Nov

 

Slept for 12 hours and I'm exhausted...

[LouCarJo]

6 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Saturday 18 Nov and Sunday 19 Nov

 

My brain broke. I didn't put on clothes. It was no fun. My brain is dumb.

 

Monday 20 Nov

 

Slept for 12 hours and I'm exhausted...

Oh no :-(.  Can you pamper yourself tonight, unwind, get to bed and start again tomorrow?

[sylph]

1 hour ago, Mad Hatter said:

Saturday 18 Nov and Sunday 19 Nov

 

My brain broke. I didn't put on clothes. It was no fun. My brain is dumb.

 

Monday 20 Nov

 

Slept for 12 hours and I'm exhausted...

 

Hang in there, m'dear. Thanks for checking in.

[Lara]

Oh  

[NeverThatBored]

Booo. I definitely have days like that. I hope you feel your energy comes back soon!

[Elastigirl]

You are probably fighting off a bug of some sorts. Hope your energy returns soon. Do you take Vitamin D? That might help with the SAD

[WhiteGhost]

12 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

so many people don't even have the baseline mobility required for basic human function, like walking, running, hanging and squatting...

And too many don't even realize it (I sure didn't for the longest time)

[Lara]

3 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

(I sure didn't for the longest time)

You are not alone.

[KB Girl]

All the hugs! You're still posting here with a broken brain, that's very good. 

 

21 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Sure, but there's a point where you have adequate mobility and any extra is unnecessary and hard to maintain. Sadly this doesn't apply to most people, so many people don't even have the baseline mobility required for basic human function, like walking, running, hanging and squatting...

Mobility and flexibility often get confused. If it's mobility you want/need then there are much more efficient ways of getting it than working on flexibility. In your case it's actual flexibility you need, right?

[SymphonicDan]

For the flexibility, would it help to have some specific goals to work towards... define a baseline that you think you should have (much higher what 99% of people have/want) and then work from there. That might prevent you neglecting important prerequisites, and prevent you from feeling inadequate from not having whatever higher echelon of flexibility that you see other people have. Maybe something like:

• side splits
• front splits (R)
• front splits (L)
• bridge to touching ankles
• flat pancake
• touch head to legs with legs straight
• ...?

I'm just writing down random stuff here but you get the idea. I found this helpful when I came back to bodyweight training after a break. I'll set goals of things I've achieved in the past, but framing it this way makes it interesting again, rather than just atoning for the recent neglect of that aspect of my training.

[Mad Hatter]

Thanks for all the positive vibes guys!

 

I feel better again, completely drained but better. I don't really know what's happening at the moment. It feels like my episodes are coming on more frequently and intensely than in the past, but luckily they also don't last very long. They're more sneaky now too. Before there was a longer lead up so to speak where I could tell that something was going wrong (if I paid attention that is), but right now I'm fine one day and then BOOM the next day I'm slapped down hard into some very dark territory. 

 

Bleeh. I hate how stupid and irrational it is. And how extremely crippling it is. On Saturday I meant to go climbing and then hang out with my friends. But I just could. not. move. Part of me wanted to go, and rationally I knew I might even feel better, but physically it felt impossible. And when my friends were all messaging me and wondering where I was, I couldn't bring myself to answer. Because I didn't know what to say. So I hid my phone. And then the guilt and shame just added to the spiral.

 

Yesterday the friend that I'm working confronted me about my hiding and then told me that his partner is actually rather upset with me and I felt I had to apologise to her. So I messaged her explaining at least a little bit why I didn't come/answer. This is something I find incredibly hard to do. I'm fairly open about my issues here on the forums, but in real life not many people know. I think it's only a few people that I've lived with that I couldn't hide it from that have an idea of what I'm going through at times, I don't think I've ever told anyone. But I'm glad I told her, not in very many words, because words are hard, but enough for her to understand. And after our chat I just feel so incredibly grateful that I have people around me close by that still love me even when I'm acting crazy. 

 

15 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

You are probably fighting off a bug of some sorts. Hope your energy returns soon. Do you take Vitamin D? That might help with the SAD

I honestly don't think so, I think it's all mental. I've also been sleeping really badly, with some awful dreams. Today I had such a bad dream I woke up crying. And even now I still get upset even thinking about it. 

 

I do take vitamin D. I feel it's practically a requirement this far north.  And I started to add in fish oil on the off chance it might help. But honestly I think my diet is so messed up right now I need to fix that first before anything else can help...

 

 

[Elastigirl]

2 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

I honestly don't think so, I think it's all mental. I've also been sleeping really badly, with some awful dreams. Today I had such a bad dream I woke up crying. And even now I still get upset even thinking about it. 

 

I hate dreams like that. I am a very vivid dreamer.  Sorry  you are dealing with depression. Woot for having the courage to tell your friend about it. I'm glad she was supportive

[Mad Hatter]

4 hours ago, KB Girl said:

Mobility and flexibility often get confused. If it's mobility you want/need then there are much more efficient ways of getting it than working on flexibility. In your case it's actual flexibility you need, right?

Ahh, excellent question, now we're heading into a rabbit hole for real.  

 

This is going to be a bit of my own philosophy here, but personally I feel like the mobility vs flexibility language needs to die. It is all the same thing. In the past years there has been this development that stretching == flexibility == completely passive == no control == death and injury. And mobility == superior end range strength and control == best thing since sliced bread. But if you think about it contortionists have some of the highest flexibility of all people, but they also have phenomenal control and strength, i.e. "mobility". But they're training flexibility which is "bad". See where I'm heading with this? There's also this idea that active flexibility is end all be all, but the truth is that unless you have the passive flexibility you'll never have the active flexibility. They always go hand in hand. Training flexibility and mobility both require the same components - stretching, end range strength and motor control. And in the end a mobile person is a flexible person and a flexible person is a mobile person. Now of course it's important to minimise the gap between active and passive ROM, but I don't see that as a a difference between mobility and flexibility, but rather as an issue of programming. If you miss out on the strength and motor control components then that's just crappy programming and the equivalent of doing bicep curls all day every day and nothing else or whatever. I guess that the concept of mobility always encompasses all three as far as language currently goes, and that flexibility only involves the stretching part. Which is completely wrong and antiquated and why I don't think the words should be used like two different things. 

 

As for what's more efficient, then I'm a little bit torn actually. On one hand sports specificity rules. If you want to be good at your typical trendy "mobility" type exercises, animal walks, floor work, whatever, then you should train "mobility". If you want to do contortion stuff then you obviously need to train more "flexibility". But I'd keep in mind that it's much harder to mask deficiencies when you're stretching in a controlled manner than when there are a lot of moving parts. 

 

Let's say doing a bear walk. And the person can't reach with their heels to the ground and has a shoulder issue at that. It's easy to mask the shoulders simply by shifting the weight forward. Then it doesn't matter how many bear walks the person will do if they always end up compensating. In that case some targeted stretches could be much more efficient, unless the person is very disciplined or have a watchful coach. Similarly for the heels not touching the ground issue. That could be caused by literally anything along the back chain - tight calves, hamstrings, low back, neck, nerves. In that case it could also be much more efficient to try and find and then work on the most restricted area first in isolation. And personally I find that it's much easier to learn new movements when you already have the prerequisite flexibility than if you're trying to do two things at the same time. Like say, moving in and out of bridges, a movement that has crossover in both the "mobility" world and "flexibility" world, is 100x easier to learn and with a much reduced risk of injury if you already have a solid bridge.

 

But in the end it's all a matter of what you think is fun, what your body's like and what you're training for. If you love yoga then it doesn't matter that you spend years and years learning to do the splits, when it would've taken months with a targeted program. If you want to do animal walks all day long then train for that. But when it comes to efficiency for gaining ROM I think a targeted stretching program is the most efficient. For moving in general, well, it depends, but probably a combination of both. And as to what's the most efficient stretching program is, and how you split the stretching, strengthening and motor control components, that's another discussion.  That really depends on body type (joint mobility and structure, age, musculature, neural tension, posture), lifestyle (stressors, working environment), past and current activities (lifting vs circus, general movement) etc etc. 

 

[Echoceanic]

1 hour ago, Mad Hatter said:

I feel better again, completely drained but better.

 

I'm so glad you're doing okay. Your brain breaking can be rough, everyone gets it at some point in some form or the other. I usually get the drained feeling. When I can't write, then I know something is wrong.

 

While communicating with people is rough, it helps a lot. Even if it's two words informing them that it's not them it makes you feel better in the long run. And then when it happens again, they know. 

 

Also I loved reading your flexibility-mobility post. I used to think that you didn't need strength for flexibility, and then I realised that is stupid, but I didn't realise how much these two are connected till I started exercising.

[WhiteGhost]

7 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Ahh, excellent question, now we're heading into a rabbit hole for real.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote there.  I don't have enough experience with either stretching or mobility workouts but based on what I have been doing over the past few months, it has become apparent to me that flexibility without strength can be really hard on the joints.  On the other hand, focusing on mobility without the proper flexibility makes it much easier to pull something that isn't ready to move that way yet.  The sweet spot for me is doing both in tandem, getting into a stretch and them working on limited mobility within the stretch to get the body more comfortable being in that position.  I have  been very happy with my results from this method.

 

That said, I get really confused when people talk about both flexibility and mobility because it seems like no two people have the exact same definition for those words.  Even in my bit above, I am not even sure that those words accurately reflect what I am trying to convey...  

[Mad Hatter]

10 hours ago, Echocheanic said:

 

I'm so glad you're doing okay. Your brain breaking can be rough, everyone gets it at some point in some form or the other. I usually get the drained feeling. When I can't write, then I know something is wrong.

 

While communicating with people is rough, it helps a lot. Even if it's two words informing them that it's not them it makes you feel better in the long run. And then when it happens again, they know. 

 

Also I loved reading your flexibility-mobility post. I used to think that you didn't need strength for flexibility, and then I realised that is stupid, but I didn't realise how much these two are connected till I started exercising.

Thanks, appreciate it!  It's rough when it happens, but I'm kinda used to it by now. And just knowing that it will pass makes it easier to deal with.

 

No doubt about it, I just find it so hard. I just don't want my moods to affect other people. Of course it does either way, but being rational is not exactly my strong suit when my brain decides to go haywire on me.  

 

Yep very connected! Even if someone has zero interest in flexibility, it still affects them and their strength training. If muscles are not in their optimal resting state, i.e. too tight or too stretched out, that limits force production and they won't be able to lift as much or run as fast. It's all connected yo!

 

3 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

I agree with a lot of what you wrote there.  I don't have enough experience with either stretching or mobility workouts but based on what I have been doing over the past few months, it has become apparent to me that flexibility without strength can be really hard on the joints.  On the other hand, focusing on mobility without the proper flexibility makes it much easier to pull something that isn't ready to move that way yet.  The sweet spot for me is doing both in tandem, getting into a stretch and them working on limited mobility within the stretch to get the body more comfortable being in that position.  I have  been very happy with my results from this method.

 

That said, I get really confused when people talk about both flexibility and mobility because it seems like no two people have the exact same definition for those words.  Even in my bit above, I am not even sure that those words accurately reflect what I am trying to convey...  

I gets confused because they really mean the same thing. It's just that some people demonize the word flexibility because they equal it to people flopping into massive over splits they can't control and evil coaches jumping on children in their splits. While it does unfortunately still happen, it's not particularly relevant in the discussion of how to safely and effectively train for flexibility. It's much better to talk about active ROM (good), passive ROM (also not evil!) and the gap between them (smaller is better) and then apply that ROM to whatever skills you want to achieve.   

[Mad Hatter]

12 hours ago, SymphonicDan said:

For the flexibility, would it help to have some specific goals to work towards... define a baseline that you think you should have (much higher what 99% of people have/want) and then work from there. That might prevent you neglecting important prerequisites, and prevent you from feeling inadequate from not having whatever higher echelon of flexibility that you see other people have. Maybe something like:

• side splits
• front splits (R)
• front splits (L)
• bridge to touching ankles
• flat pancake
• touch head to legs with legs straight
• ...?

I'm just writing down random stuff here but you get the idea. I found this helpful when I came back to bodyweight training after a break. I'll set goals of things I've achieved in the past, but framing it this way makes it interesting again, rather than just atoning for the recent neglect of that aspect of my training.

I honestly don't get super inspired by say just doing the splits, to me that feels a bit pointless without context. (And probably a reason why any of my "work on splits goals" have tended to fail) But maybe I could think about skills that involve them like handstands or whatever.  That could maybe make things more interesting! 

 

12 hours ago, Elastigirl said:

I hate dreams like that. I am a very vivid dreamer.  Sorry  you are dealing with depression. Woot for having the courage to tell your friend about it. I'm glad she was supportive

It's unfair, I only have vivid dreams when they're crappy.  

 

Thanks! It's ok though. Or, it's not ok, but there's no need feel sorry. I really do consider my lucky that my episodes don't last very long! And while it sucks it does make me appreciate things in a different way.  

[Lara]

2 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

and evil coaches jumping on children in their splits

This will give me nightmares.

Loved your mobility/flexibility reflection.

 

Happy to see you're feeling better  *hugs*

[KB Girl]

First things first; that's very good that you talked to her about it, even if it's just small bits! I have two girls at the gym who talk about similar things pretty openly with a select few other gym members and it's so well received and seems to sort of improve everyone instead of burdening them. 

 

16 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Putting this quoting thing here while I'm actually going to copy paste the relevant bits and comment in a different colour

 

Ahh, excellent question, now we're heading into a rabbit hole for real.  

Yess! Loving this rabbit hole. Good to discuss it with someone who has a very different background/experience set than people I usually discuss it with! 

 

This is going to be a bit of my own philosophy here, but personally I feel like the mobility vs flexibility language needs to die. It is all the same thing. In the past years there has been this development that stretching == flexibility == completely passive == no control == death and injury. And mobility == superior end range strength and control == best thing since sliced bread.

This made me laugh and I agree that this is a bad train of thought, however I don't think that mobility and flexibility are the same thing at all and are useful terminology!

But if you think about it contortionists have some of the highest flexibility of all people, but they also have phenomenal control and strength, i.e. "mobility". But they're training flexibility which is "bad". See where I'm heading with this? There's also this idea that active flexibility is end all be all, but the truth is that unless you have the passive flexibility you'll never have the active flexibility. Yes. I see your point! The idea that flexibility is somehow bad is just.. but mobility somehow good? That's just ludicrous.  

They always go hand in hand. Training flexibility and mobility both require the same components - stretching, end range strength and motor control. You're forgetting one more thing, which is the neurological aspect. Let's take the splits as an example.. you might have the required flexibility for it, (most people actually do) but your nervous system is not convinced it's safe. You can test this by putting both legs into the splits position seperately. I bet you can do it. However, to do both legs at the same time is impossible because your nervous system will get VERY nervous and basically lock you down. What you're then doing by active stretching is just calming down your nervous system and gently guiding it into allowing the movement. It has nothing to do with tissue whatsoever. 

And in the end a mobile person is a flexible person and a flexible person is a mobile person. Not really.. because the nervous system locks stuff down people may have the required flexibility already but aren't able to use this. Another simply test for this (that I use very often in kettlebell coaching) is completely relaxing and then moving arms overhead. Note the ROM. Then brace your 'core' and test again. I'm willing to bet that for 95% of people reading this there will be a bigger ROM. Which is achieved simply by telling the central nervous system that it's safe to do this movement by bracing. Hence my comment that mobility is SO MUCH EASIER than flexibility. Because often people ARE flexible enough to do the things they want to do. Achieving the same overhead ROM by (active) stretching would take months, or fail completely. 

That said, probably for circus and contortionists it's very true that they are both flexible AND mobile because they have done ALL THE WORK to calm down their nervous system. Their CNS feels completely cozy and safe in all sorts of ROMs. 

Now of course it's important to minimise the gap between active and passive ROM, but I don't see that as a a difference between mobility and flexibility, but rather as an issue of programming. If you miss out on the strength and motor control components then that's just crappy programming and the equivalent of doing bicep curls all day every day and nothing else or whatever. I guess that the concept of mobility always encompasses all three as far as language currently goes, and that flexibility only involves the stretching part. Which is completely wrong and antiquated and why I don't think the words should be used like two different things. I need to use these words as two different things to get the point across to people that they need to do homework that will manipulate their CNS instead of the stretching they have been doing and has gotten them nowhere. Ofcourse I'm dealing with very different goals from what you've encountered.. and Jaap and Roy (our two body control teachers) actually do a lot of active stretching because the needs of their athletes are very different. 

I think you could say flexibility has to do with actual structural and tissue issues while mobility has to do with range of motion and motor control.. stretching is capable of contributing to both. Both require the CNS to calm the fck down. 

 

As for what's more efficient, then I'm a little bit torn actually. On one hand sports specificity rules. If you want to be good at your typical trendy "mobility" type exercises, animal walks, floor work, whatever, then you should train "mobility". If you want to do contortion stuff then you obviously need to train more "flexibility". But I'd keep in mind that it's much harder to mask deficiencies when you're stretching in a controlled manner than when there are a lot of moving parts. 

 

Let's say doing a bear walk. And the person can't reach with their heels to the ground and has a shoulder issue at that. It's easy to mask the shoulders simply by shifting the weight forward. Then it doesn't matter how many bear walks the person will do if they always end up compensating. In that case some targeted stretches could be much more efficient, unless the person is very disciplined or have a watchful coach. Similarly for the heels not touching the ground issue. That could be caused by literally anything along the back chain - tight calves, hamstrings, low back, neck, nerves. In that case it could also be much more efficient to try and find and then work on the most restricted area first in isolation. And personally I find that it's much easier to learn new movements when you already have the prerequisite flexibility than if you're trying to do two things at the same time. Like say, moving in and out of bridges, a movement that has crossover in both the "mobility" world and "flexibility" world, is 100x easier to learn and with a much reduced risk of injury if you already have a solid bridge.

See this is where it gets confusing. Because if you are training flexibility then you are training mobility. It's just that if it's mobility you want you need to figure out if you're already flexible enough and if you are then you gotta stop stretching and fix the other things. That's efficiency. If you're not flexible enough then that's ALWAYS the first thing to fix. Which is basically what you're saying. 

 

Let's use something completely different as an example; a proper squat! You might be coming forward in your squat and rounding your back..

- so this might be a flexibility issue: tight calves will limit ankle mobility thus limiting your ability to stay upright, you can solve by either stretching or buying lifting shoes

- OR it's a motor control issue: you don't open your hips so your butt goes to far back instead of down, thus limiting your ability to stay upright.. you can solve by queuing the movement right

BOTH are mobility problems. The distinction between flexibility and motor control is thus important, because in the second example if you spot the problem of not opening the hips and you start stretching them.. you will get absolutely nowhere. 

 

But in the end it's all a matter of what you think is fun, what your body's like and what you're training for. If you love yoga then it doesn't matter that you spend years and years learning to do the splits, when it would've taken months with a targeted program. If you want to do animal walks all day long then train for that. But when it comes to efficiency for gaining ROM I think a targeted stretching program is the most efficient. Only if you don't already have the required flexibility for the ROM. If you do, then you can gain the ROM within like... 5 minutes. And keep it with a couple hours work. For moving in general, well, it depends, but probably a combination of both. And as to what's the most efficient stretching program is, and how you split the stretching, strengthening and motor control components, that's another discussion.  That really depends on body type (joint mobility and structure, age, musculature, neural tension, posture), lifestyle (stressors, working environment), past and current activities (lifting vs circus, general movement) etc etc. I'm actually.. not that familiar with all the ways one could stretch. We often use a combination of passive and dynamic stretching but the main thing we try to focus on is ehm... activating the proper muscles to use. For example tight hamstrings are often caused by the gluteus medius not firing, so first stretch hams, then do side planks to stimulate the medius. (The medius doing it's job properly calms the CNS down and will often release tension in the hams and also allow more freedom of movement.)

 

 

Edit: just tagging @The Most Loathed here because I bet he'd love this discussion but I don't think he follows MadHatter.

[Mad Hatter]

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

Yess! Loving this rabbit hole. Good to discuss it with someone who has a very different background/experience set than people I usually discuss it with! 

Me too!  Shame the discussion is not over a beer though.  

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

This made me laugh and I agree that this is a bad train of thought, however I don't think that mobility and flexibility are the same thing at all and are useful terminology!

I really don't think that the language is correct though. I agree that it would be useful to have different terminology to describe different things, but currently the terms are used in a very confusing and highly biased way which I don't agree with. That's why I'd rather discuss things in more concrete anatomical and unambiguous terms. (I don't strictly follow that rule, but I do think it'd be better)

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

You're forgetting one more thing, which is the neurological aspect. Let's take the splits as an example.. you might have the required flexibility for it, (most people actually do) but your nervous system is not convinced it's safe. You can test this by putting both legs into the splits position seperately. I bet you can do it. However, to do both legs at the same time is impossible because your nervous system will get VERY nervous and basically lock you down. What you're then doing by active stretching is just calming down your nervous system and gently guiding it into allowing the movement. It has nothing to do with tissue whatsoever. 

I haven't forgotten that, I just didn't want to bring in yet another thing into the argument.  I completely agree about the neurological aspect of it, but in my mind if you have the passive ROM for it but you're body is too nervous to use it, then you don't actually have that flexibility. It's completely irrelevant if you can do the splits - but only when unconscious. Then how you get there is a different story. Active gentle stretching can definitely help. Sometimes it's more useful to use more strength based protocols. But sometimes even passive stretching can be a helpful exercise when done correctly and can be very calming for the nervous system. (Like in the case of people experiencing emotional releases through stretching)

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

And in the end a mobile person is a flexible person and a flexible person is a mobile person. Not really.. because the nervous system locks stuff down people may have the required flexibility already but aren't able to use this. Another simply test for this (that I use very often in kettlebell coaching) is completely relaxing and then moving arms overhead. Note the ROM. Then brace your 'core' and test again. I'm willing to bet that for 95% of people reading this there will be a bigger ROM. Which is achieved simply by telling the central nervous system that it's safe to do this movement by bracing. Hence my comment that mobility is SO MUCH EASIER than flexibility. Because often people ARE flexible enough to do the things they want to do. Achieving the same overhead ROM by (active) stretching would take months, or fail completely. 

That's pretty cool. And it makes sense that the nervous system will protect the body from wildly flinging kettlebells around.  I don't see how mobility is easier than flexibility though...? And again how you get that usable ROM is a different story. For some people it will be technique that's missing. For some it will be tissue restrictions. For some it will be neurological. If you can get that level of ROM by simply providing a different cue than all the better! 

 

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

I need to use these words as two different things to get the point across to people that they need to do homework that will manipulate their CNS instead of the stretching they have been doing and has gotten them nowhere. Ofcourse I'm dealing with very different goals from what you've encountered.. and Jaap and Roy (our two body control teachers) actually do a lot of active stretching because the needs of their athletes are very different. 

I think you could say flexibility has to do with actual structural and tissue issues while mobility has to do with range of motion and motor control.. stretching is capable of contributing to both. Both require the CNS to calm the fck down. 

I get that you need to use different words. I just don't think the words are not used in the right way and we'd be better of with more neutral, precise language. The discussion really is mostly about semantics. Stretching in itself can also help, but it needs to be done the correct way and address the right issues. For a strong muscular athlete for example I'd probably recommend a lot more active stretching, possibly using weights. While for a hypermobile person I'd recommend a lot more control work. Someone with nerve restrictions will have to stretch completely differently compared to someone with muscular restrictions. But it's still all goes under the flexibility umbrella to me. Maybe because that's the way I've been taught - I didn't go to a flexibility/stretching class and a different class for mobility, it's all the same and different people got different homework. 

 

I disagree that flexibility is structural. As you say yourself, the structural part is just a small component of achieving a certain ROM. And if higher degree of flexibility = more ROM than you have to address all the components. And that could be through stretching (which is also a very broad umbrella term) or through other methods.

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

See this is where it gets confusing. Because if you are training flexibility then you are training mobility. It's just that if it's mobility you want you need to figure out if you're already flexible enough and if you are then you gotta stop stretching and fix the other things. That's efficiency. If you're not flexible enough then that's ALWAYS the first thing to fix. Which is basically what you're saying.  

 Yep basically.  The most efficient way will be to find the biggest restriction and fix that first, then continue working up the chain. And this is what makes flexibility tricky because you need to figure where the restriction is. But doing lots of mobility training like loads of animal walks won't help. Of course that's not the only way to do it but that's what a whole lot of mobility IG "gurus" do. Who obviously already have the prerequisite mobility so it doesn't even translate to the super stiff office person.

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

Only if you don't already have the required flexibility for the ROM. If you do, then you can gain the ROM within like... 5 minutes. And keep it with a couple hours work

Sure, sometimes it's all about learning the correct movement pattern or technique. 

 

1 hour ago, KB Girl said:

 I'm actually.. not that familiar with all the ways one could stretch. We often use a combination of passive and dynamic stretching but the main thing we try to focus on is ehm... activating the proper muscles to use. For example tight hamstrings are often caused by the gluteus medius not firing, so first stretch hams, then do side planks to stimulate the medius. 

Which is awesome! For some things like backbends you'll probably want to reverse the order so the glutes are firing when going into the stretch. Or combine the two - so using the glutes actively to push you deeper into the stretch. Passive stretches should never really be completely passive though, unless it's specifically for the purpose of destressing.

 

Other ways to stretch would for example be ballistic stretching (which is kinda dynamic) and PNF stretching. You can use load the stretches (using weights or bodyweight like hanging) with something that looks more like typical strength protocols. Also nerves don't like to be stretched for prolonged periods so they need to be mobilized in a different way. And another thing is general tissue/joint mobilization with or without the use of tools peanuts/foam rollers, so not really classical stretching as such but can help prepare the CNS for stretching or generally for movement in higher ROMs.