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Stronglifts form check (B day lifts)


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For today, I lowered the safety pins one notch to encourage me to go lower. I am trying to focus on pushing more through my heels. I'm keeping my squat weight at 170 lbs while I work on form (at least through this week). Stronglifts wants me at 185 (if I were still following linear progression). Similarly, I'm keeping OHP at 90 for the same reasons.

 

170 lb squat

apologies on the false start. Unracked the weight and it just didn't feel right. In review, it looks like I could go a little deeper. Push my ascot out a little bit more to try and stay over heels on the way down (am I looking at that right)

 

90 lb OHP

Think I'm getting better at tightening up. I know I'm still arching back near the end. Also, saw that my toes came up (guessing its related to arched back)

 

220 lb deadlift

I saw definite rounding of my back. Will work on that Friday. Also saw that it didn't look like I "locked out" on the 3rd rep (shoulders were still forward). Had to stop (~1 minute) after 3rd rep cause it felt like fingers were going to rip off my hands. I did go back and get the last two reps, but didn't get recorded. I think I had trouble locking out those last two.

 

Am I looking at these right? Trying to learn how to critique myself in addition to letting the brothers in arms see.

 

Thanks!

Fitbit username: farflight   (would love to have more people on there)

Getting life in order is a challenge worth doing.

 

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Squats:

GET LOWER. GET LOWER. GET LOWER.

I cannot stress that enough. Your knees are definitely in a better position, but you could go a little farther back. Which, coincidentally, will help you GET LOWER.

 

OHP:

I've got nothing but encouragement on OHP. Form looks good, that last rep was a struggle, so a little form failure is expected.

 

Deadlift:

I'm gonna beat you up a little bit here. There's several things you need to work on. First, when you grab the bar and get set, even without seeing your feet I can tell you're too far from the bar. Your knees are way over the bar, which helps lead to the rounding you're seeing as well as lifting with your arms and shoulders. If you watch the top of the first rep, you can actually see your arms start to curl the bar a little bit. Which is going to mess with your grip. It got progressively worse each rep. Which is why you felt like you did after rep three. Also. You stiff legged the weight on the way down and bent in half like your were a compound bow. That's asking for back trouble. Finaly note, Stop looking at the bar. Keep your head neutral. If it stays in line with your spine, it will also act as a cue to maintain that rigid spine.

 

Also, watch this.

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44 minutes ago, Grumble said:

Also, watch this.

Link isn't working. Will try again when I get on home network (could be a firewall/security issues at the school).

 

45 minutes ago, Grumble said:

I'm gonna beat you up a little bit here.

Just a friendly spar :D

 

When I setup, I tend to put the bar about midfoot, that's what I've read as recommended. I might be squatting down wrong (similar to my squat problems). 

 

Thanks for looking!!

 

 Next B day is scheduled for Friday. I'll try practicing form with a broom this evening.

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Fitbit username: farflight   (would love to have more people on there)

Getting life in order is a challenge worth doing.

 

Happiness is the journey, not the destination (took me forever to learn that)

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I'm sorry Grumble, but I disagree with you on some of your squat and deadlift assesment. No disrespect, but I have some different thoughts.

 

The squat starts well, but during the decent you are getting too much pronation at the feet. When you lose the stable base of the feet you will not acheive a full depth squat. You could probably benefit off a slight heel lift so that you can push from a whole foot on the way up. If you sit your hips back more and drift more to your heels your squat will look more and more like a good morning, thus preventing you from using your quads. Squats are drive by the quads, so lets keep them involved. As you learn to drive from a whole foot and use the quads your ankle mobility will improve (becuase you've gained more stability) and you won't need a heel lift- or you might, you look like you have long legs.

 

The deadlift needs some work too, but its very close! I like the set up, the bar should be over the arches in your foot, not against the shins. If the bar is too close to the knees the hips will rise and this will look like an RDL or stiff leg deadlift. Let the knees stay forward where they are so you can drive through the whole foot and use the quads off the floor. The pick up was a little rough because you jerked at the bar. Think of it like towing a car, we want to tighten the line before we start pulling. Get some tension on the bar (pick up 90% of the weight) so you can brace your core for the lift. When you get tight, take in a good breathe to the torso, and push through the feet to break the bar off the floor. Be patient off the floor, but explosive to finish. Grumble was correct with your shoulder placement over the bar. Once you get the bar set over your arches and you get tight, sit back just a tad. Keep taking videos so you can see this line from shoulders, to bar, to arches. 

 

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On 12/12/2017 at 5:16 AM, Grumble said:

Deadlift:

I'm gonna beat you up a little bit here. There's several things you need to work on. First, when you grab the bar and get set, even without seeing your feet I can tell you're too far from the bar. Your knees are way over the bar, which helps lead to the rounding you're seeing as well as lifting with your arms and shoulders. If you watch the top of the first rep, you can actually see your arms start to curl the bar a little bit. Which is going to mess with your grip. It got progressively worse each rep. Which is why you felt like you did after rep three. Also. You stiff legged the weight on the way down and bent in half like your were a compound bow. That's asking for back trouble. Finaly note, Stop looking at the bar. Keep your head neutral. If it stays in line with your spine, it will also act as a cue to maintain that rigid spine.

 

On 12/16/2017 at 5:02 AM, kettlebellkungfupanda said:

The deadlift needs some work too, but its very close! I like the set up, the bar should be over the arches in your foot, not against the shins. If the bar is too close to the knees the hips will rise and this will look like an RDL or stiff leg deadlift. Let the knees stay forward where they are so you can drive through the whole foot and use the quads off the floor. The pick up was a little rough because you jerked at the bar. Think of it like towing a car, we want to tighten the line before we start pulling. Get some tension on the bar (pick up 90% of the weight) so you can brace your core for the lift. When you get tight, take in a good breathe to the torso, and push through the feet to break the bar off the floor. Be patient off the floor, but explosive to finish. Grumble was correct with your shoulder placement over the bar. Once you get the bar set over your arches and you get tight, sit back just a tad. Keep taking videos so you can see this line from shoulders, to bar, to arches. 

 

I've only watched the deadlift video, so I've only grabbed those pieces of the discussion. Grumble has it right on this one. Although the only issue I have with the advice you've given @kettlebellkungfupanda is about the knees. If you drive your knees over the bar too far you have to move the bar around your knees thus decreasing the efficiency of your lift, and if you start with the bar too far away from you, you either have to start the lift by swinging the bar into your body, or you fail to engage the lats properly (the main muscle group stabilizing your back during a deadlift) and put additional stress on your low back.

 

Finally, although jerking the bar off the ground is bad, if you start your pull slow, you will finish it slow unless its a sub maximal weight. If you're pulling maximal weight, once you lose bar speed, you won't ever get it back unless you're hitching/ramping (both illegal in power lifting and not recommended for training good form). So pull the slack out of the bar, tighten up your core, engage your lats, and then drive your feet into the ground aggressively.

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3 hours ago, Juni0r83 said:

 

 

I've only watched the deadlift video, so I've only grabbed those pieces of the discussion. Grumble has it right on this one. Although the only issue I have with the advice you've given @kettlebellkungfupanda is about the knees. If you drive your knees over the bar too far you have to move the bar around your knees thus decreasing the efficiency of your lift, and if you start with the bar too far away from you, you either have to start the lift by swinging the bar into your body, or you fail to engage the lats properly (the main muscle group stabilizing your back during a deadlift) and put additional stress on your low back.

 

Finally, although jerking the bar off the ground is bad, if you start your pull slow, you will finish it slow unless its a sub maximal weight. If you're pulling maximal weight, once you lose bar speed, you won't ever get it back unless you're hitching/ramping (both illegal in power lifting and not recommended for training good form). So pull the slack out of the bar, tighten up your core, engage your lats, and then drive your feet into the ground aggressively.

 

I respect your difference in opinion, but I want to defend what I said because I feel some of it may have been taken out of context. The point about the knees over the bar, I'm not suggesting he push them farther forward, but that they are fine where he is set up. They will easily move out of the way as he starts to extend the knees and hips. I don't think the slight dorsiflexion will affect the bar path, but I could give a definite answer if I was coaching him in person. The position of the knees is usually dependant on the limb length of the person performing. Shorter legged people will not need as much dorsiflexion to get in a good position to drive off the floor. 

 

To the point on bar speed, with no disrespect to farflight, he is a novice lifter. A novice lifter does not need to work on bar speed off the floor, they need quality technique practice and reps. They aren't going to even generate enough force for a while to worry about power. If we need to slow down the pick up in order to perfect technique early on then I'm ok with that. I'd be happy to work on an aggressive push when he can be consistent with his pulls off the floor. He also doesn't need to push maximal weights because Novice lifters will see strength gains lifting as little as 40% of their max. This means there isn't really a point in pushing the weights too heavy or trying to pull high bar speeds when all we need to see gains is moderate weighted, high volume, high quality work.

 

This is a great discussion, I hope we can keep it going and all get better from it. Thank you, I'm always interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on training so I can continue to learn.

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3 hours ago, kettlebellkungfupanda said:

I respect your difference in opinion, but I want to defend what I said because I feel some of it may have been taken out of context. The point about the knees over the bar, I'm not suggesting he push them farther forward, but that they are fine where he is set up. They will easily move out of the way as he starts to extend the knees and hips. I don't think the slight dorsiflexion will affect the bar path, but I could give a definite answer if I was coaching him in person. The position of the knees is usually dependant on the limb length of the person performing. Shorter legged people will not need as much dorsiflexion to get in a good position to drive off the floor. 

 

My problem wasn't with the position of his knees in the video, but with your descriptor of where they should be. His knee position in the video is fine, but the bar should but pulled back further to decrease the moment arm of the lift (the back). The five step setup linked in Grumble's post has a great deal of physiology behind its development (it's also backed by the guys who run Barbellmedicine.com, who are also actual MDs), and takes into account differing body proportions. The barbell being against the shins, and held against the legs by tight lats will ensure that 1) the bar path is as efficient as possible and 2) that the correct muscle patterns are developed to ensure his trunk is held tight during the lift.

 

It's important to note that the deadlift is not a squat movement pattern, but a bend movement pattern. You shouldn't be trying to make it more like a squat - and on this I'm speaking for personal experience.

 

3 hours ago, kettlebellkungfupanda said:

To the point on bar speed, with no disrespect to farflight, he is a novice lifter. A novice lifter does not need to work on bar speed off the floor, they need quality technique practice and reps. They aren't going to even generate enough force for a while to worry about power. If we need to slow down the pick up in order to perfect technique early on then I'm ok with that. I'd be happy to work on an aggressive push when he can be consistent with his pulls off the floor. He also doesn't need to push maximal weights because Novice lifters will see strength gains lifting as little as 40% of their max. This means there isn't really a point in pushing the weights too heavy or trying to pull high bar speeds when all we need to see gains is moderate weighted, high volume, high quality work

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, except that he's doing SS, which means the weight will quickly increase to the point that it is maximal loading. Better to build good habits now that to try and detrain bad ones later. If he was being managed by a hands on coach, it would be a completely different story, as the shift from sub-maximal loading with technique as a focus to maximal loading with force production as a focus would be relatively seamless and built up as his experience and movement patterns improve. But as he is running a cookie cutter method, the closer to optimal he can lift now, the better prepared he will be as the weight increases.

 

Dwarf Warrior
I am today what I made myself yesterday, I will be tomorrow what I make of myself today.

Current challenge: Juni0r83 works on his Schedule-Fu

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12 hours ago, kettlebellkungfupanda said:

with no disrespect to farflight, he is a novice lifter.

Truth here. Experience ranges from being terribly outta shape for 20+ years (was really good at 12 oz and 1 oz curls). Did bodyweight and dumbbells for about a year before stronglifts. Almost through 12 weeks of stronglifts now

 

9 hours ago, Juni0r83 said:

will quickly increase to the point that it is maximal loading

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^So freaking true. I think I'm getting to max loads right about now. Not kinda happy with where I am, but I'm too stubborn and committed to quit. I like moving heavy things. Got my first deload prompt for OHP the other day, so It's "kinda" nice to know where my strength really is. 

 

Historically, I've always lived in the geographic center of my comfort zone, so I never really had to peer over edges. It's starting to feel like now I've wandered to the fence and am dangling a foot over the abyss. Thankfully, NF shows me that while I might not see the ground, My feet SHOULD hit something solidish.

 

Alway appreciate form feedback!

Fitbit username: farflight   (would love to have more people on there)

Getting life in order is a challenge worth doing.

 

Happiness is the journey, not the destination (took me forever to learn that)

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@Juni0r83 I agree with the statement that the bar should be touching the shins, but I interpret that as the shins can come forward to meet the bar. I think the more important technique cue is to keep the bar over the midfoot so that the weight is distributed across the whole foot. 

 

The deadlift is a hinge, but I don't look at hinging and squatting as black and white, but rather a spectrum. For instance the squattiest movement being a reaching plate squat (completely vertical torsos w/ full knee flexion) and the hingiest being a snatch grip romanian deadlift (chest to floor with full hip flexion and minimal knee flexion), the convential deadlift is definitely on the hinge side, but has some knee flexion and a higher chest position. 

 

I used to pull the bar back to my shins instead of putting the bar over my midfoot and letting the shins come to the bar until I read this from Rippetoe. It added about 45lbs to my deadlift, but mostly it improved my bar speed. He outlines this idea better than I do if you want to check it out yourself. https://www.t-nation.com/training/deconstructing-the-deadlift

 

I have a feeling we have the same school of thought on the deadlift, even though our descriptions are not matching up right now. Thanks for continuing our intelligent discussion.

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