Bookish Badgers Some More

[Plazmotic]

4 hours ago, Wolfen said:

If we did that, he said, this country would be in better shape.

Only for a very small slice of society, that's for sure.

[Diadhuit]

Okay, so I truly hate that anyone "lard" or any similar statement when talking about their weight. It always reminds me of:
 

 

But I also seriously love that there is a nice, respectful conversation around this. 

I am going off what this topic is about now, but I really needed to say that I never had this perspective and it really changed my outlook! Thanks!

[Bookish Badger]

Week 2 Update:

Exercise: Did Darebee workouts 5 days out of 7. One point each to Blade and Acrobatics.

 

Walking): Due to weather and generally feeling less-than-wonderful on a few days, I only walked 2 days out of 7. It seemed like more, but the Hobonichi doesn't lie. No Athletics point.

 

Keto Eating: 3 days out of 7. No Light Armor point. (My weight is holding steady, so at least I haven't lost ground.)

 

Gratitude Journaling: 3 days out of 7. No Restoration point.

 

While the numbers aren't great when spelled out like that, I do feel that overall I made a bit of progress. So I feel positive and looking forward to the coming week.

 

Also, a patented Bookish Badger review of Intuitive Eating is coming soon. I just have to go back through the sections that I earmarked and organize my thoughts.

[Severine]

11 hours ago, Bookish Badger said:

the Hobonichi doesn't lie

 

This made my heart swell.

 

11 hours ago, Bookish Badger said:

(My weight is holding steady, so at least I haven't lost ground.)

 

Not a small thing. Something to be grateful for, even (look at that...two birds with one stone)

 

11 hours ago, Bookish Badger said:

Also, a patented Bookish Badger review of Intuitive Eating is coming soon. I just have to go back through the sections that I earmarked and organize my thoughts.

 

I am very genuinely looking forward to this.

[Bean Sidhe]

12 hours ago, Bookish Badger said:

Week 2 Update:

 

While the numbers aren't great when spelled out like that, I do feel that overall I made a bit of progress. So I feel positive and looking forward to the coming week.

 

Glad you are feeling progress. I know the numbers don't always show how we feel, but that is the important part here. And especially when you didn't feel great and the weather is stupid, feeling like there is progress is a HUGE THING.

Keep it up

[Bookish Badger]

On 1/15/2018 at 7:22 PM, Severine said:

I am very genuinely looking forward to this.

Here you go - hope it lives up to the hype!  

 

Intuitive Eating, by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch.

 

Not too long ago, I read and wrote about Bright Line Eating, by Susan Pierce Thompson. Boy, this is a change in direction.

 

Bright Line Eating takes the stance that to control weight and be healthy (but mostly control weight) one should abstain from - absolutely and without exception - those addictive foods that trigger uncontrollable eating binges. Intuitive Eating takes the stance that to control weight and be healthy (but mostly be healthy) one should not restrict or eliminate any food since restriction triggers uncontrollable eating binges. 

 

It made me think of something Gretchen Rubin wrote: "There are abstainers and there are moderators. Every nutritionist I've ever met has been a moderator."  

 

Let's give this dichotomy some context. Bright Line Eating is based on the Food Addicts Anonymous program, a 12-step program based on abstinence. 

 

In contrast, Intuitive Eating is based on the authors' work as counselors who specialize in eating disorders and disordered eating habits. In their experience, crash dieting and the thought patterns it leads to are what cause overeating, binging, weight gain, damaged metabolisms, and all sorts of other bad stuff. 

 

The author's basic hypothesis goes something like this: any diet that unilaterally restricts any food is setting you up to fail, and fail painfully. Such restriction makes the forbidden food even more alluring (rebellion, resistance) and induces feelings of guilt when you inevitably eat them. Then you're weak, you've failed, and there's no where to go but to the store for more Ben & Jerry's. It leads to a vicious binge-and-diet cycle that is self-reinforcing and gets worse the longer it continues. 

 

They recommend several steps intended to break this cycle and restore a healthy approach to food.

 

1. Reject the diet mentality. 

2. Honor your hunger. 

3. Make peace with food. 

4. Silence the Food Police. 

5. Feel your fullness. 

6. Seek satisfaction. 

7. Cope with emotions without using food. 

8. Respect your body. 

9. Exercise for the sake of exercise. 

10. Honor your health with gentle nutrition. 

 

Overall, these are really good things to work on regardless of your health and fitness goals. Those who have been lurking around @Tanktimus the Encourager's thread have already seen a lot about this book and the benefits to be had. If you've ever been on a restrictive diet, you'll find some good food for thought here. 

 

But....

 

You knew there was a "but" coming, right? 

 

I have a few major reservations about the authors' approach. Just like the diets they reject, this book isn't a one-size-fits-all proposition. There are some serious limitations.

 

Dated nutritional information. The book was written in 1995. Don't let the "3rd Edition" fool you - it may have been republished a couple of times but the nutrition is so 25-years-ago. They literally say that lots of carbs are necessary and if you don't eat plenty of bread and pasta EVERY DAY that horrible things will happen. Regardless of what you think about carbs, y'all know that's just wrong. 

 

So I advise skimming over anywhere they start talking about nutrition and go elsewhere for nutritional advice. 

 

Food Addictions and Super-Normal Stimuli. The authors sidestep the question of food addiction. They say that the research is "mixed" and offer other explanations compulsive eating. Since they have their answer to compulsive eating (deprivation caused by the diet mindset), they clearly aren't interested in the topic. Here's an excerpt from the book:

 

Q: Won't I eat uncontrollably and gain lots of weight?

A: When you have made complete peace with food and know that what you like will always be available, you'll be able to stop after a moderate amount...Remember, guilt is what tends to make people overeat.

 

The authors also say, "If you ate chocolate all day, you'd feel sick...Do you want to continue feeling that way? If you listen to your body, you will not feel good...and when you truly know you can have the food again, it doesn't take too much to satisfy you," and "how many times have you overeaten on 'good' foods when you would have been satisfied with a handful of chips?"

 

That sounds so reasonable, and probably would be if we were talking about real food. When was the last time you heard of someone eating themselves sick on kale and broccoli?

 

But we're not talking about real food. What do people binge on? Sweets, baked goods, convenience snack foods. These are the things that we inhale in quantity and when it's gone, we go looking for more even though we're so stuffed we are miserable and hate ourselves. Why do we do this? 

 

It might be because of diet-induced deprivation, but it might also be because these food products are literally engineered to make us want more. The manufacturers even brag about it:

 

 

So I'm not sure how realistic it is to tell people they'll be "satisfied with a small handful" of something engineered to leave you unsatisfied. Wouldn't it be easier just to avoid these "foods" altogether? 

 

Root causes are not addressed. They neglect the very thing that causes us to go on a diet in the first place. If dieting were truly the sole cause of overeating and weight gain, then no one would need to go on a diet. So where does that leave us? Once again, here are the authors' words:

 

Q: Will I ever lose weight doing this?

A: If you have been eating without attention to your intuitive signals and have been eating for emotional reasons, it's likely that you're not at your natural healthy weight. As you heal from the diet mentality, it is likely that your weight will normalize...if you have an unrealistic view of normal weight and are trying to be thinner than your natural healthy weight, you won't lose weight.

 

Q: What if I can't lose weight?

A: If you're someone who is genetically destined to weigh more than society's or your expectations and therefore can't lose weight...[this process will make you happier by eliminating the guilt and failure of dieting.]

I paraphrased the part in brackets. 

 

Food intolerances are not addressed. IBS, lactose intolerance, diabetes, and other serious food-related issues don't exist in the authors' world. Sorry, @Sloth the Enduring. I guess you'll just have to cope with your diet-deprivation mindset. 

 

Eating for a purpose is barely mentioned. Blink and you'll miss it. This is the closest thing to hope that the whole book offers those with food intolerances, or who want to avoid certain foods for other reasons. Here's the whole paragraph:

 

Achieving "authentic health" is a process of dynamic integration of your inner world and the external world of health guidelines, which include exercise and nutrition. You decide, if and what, of the external world you'd like to integrate, ultimately, to achieve "authentic health." The external world includes health policy (usually a consensus from experts, based on a body of research). The external world can also include philosophical preferences, such as a desire to eat locally grown foods with a low carbon footprint. If you are truly inner-attuned, you can integrate this value, while paying attention to hunger, fullness, satisfaction, and so forth. If, however, you enter this realm too soon, there is a risk for the new mind-set to be embraced as another rigid set of rules. 

 

Are you using Keto to reverse T2 diabetes? Do you have agonizing IBS, or an auto-immune disorder that flares out of control when you eat certain foods? If so, I'll paraphrase a quote from the awesome movie, The Martian.

 

In the face of overwhelming odds, you're left with only one option: you're going to have to integrate the shit out of this.

 

Bottom line: I think the book makes a lot of good points about how we start out with good intentions and then completely mind-fuck ourselves along the way. Unhooking ourselves from artificial deprivation caused by all-or-nothing dieting can only be good for our mental health - and ultimately, our physical health. But it isn't a perfect program that if followed perfectly will result in eating more while weighing less....hang on, this is starting to sound like a plug for a fad diet, doesn't it?  

 

This book's ultimate value might be in giving people a way to get over all the ingrained disordered-eating diet all-or-nothing thinking that sets us up for failure, so that we can get back to dieting eating the foods we know are best for us, and do it sustainably this time. At least that's my plan.

 

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

A good review. I kind of suspected that the book wouldn't work for everyone, but I know it's working for me.

[Diadhuit]

Here you go - hope it lives up to the hype! [emoji6] 
 
Intuitive Eating, by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch.
 
Not too long ago, I read and wrote about Bright Line Eating, by Susan Pierce Thompson. Boy, this is a change in direction.
 
Bright Line Eating takes the stance that to control weight and be healthy (but mostly control weight) one should abstain from - absolutely and without exception - those addictive foods that trigger uncontrollable eating binges. Intuitive Eating takes the stance that to control weight and be healthy (but mostly be healthy) one should not restrict or eliminate any food since restriction triggers uncontrollable eating binges. 
 
It made me think of something Gretchen Rubin wrote: "There are abstainers and there are moderators. Every nutritionist I've ever met has been a moderator."  
 
Let's give this dichotomy some context. Bright Line Eating is based on the Food Addicts Anonymous program, a 12-step program based on abstinence. 
 
In contrast, Intuitive Eating is based on the authors' work as counselors who specialize in eating disorders and disordered eating habits. In their experience, crash dieting and the thought patterns it leads to are what cause overeating, binging, weight gain, damaged metabolisms, and all sorts of other bad stuff. 
 
The author's basic hypothesis goes something like this: any diet that unilaterally restricts any food is setting you up to fail, and fail painfully. Such restriction makes the forbidden food even more alluring (rebellion, resistance) and induces feelings of guilt when you inevitably eat them. Then you're weak, you've failed, and there's no where to go but to the store for more Ben & Jerry's. It leads to a vicious binge-and-diet cycle that is self-reinforcing and gets worse the longer it continues. 
 
They recommend several steps intended to break this cycle and restore a healthy approach to food.
 
1. Reject the diet mentality. 
2. Honor your hunger. 
3. Make peace with food. 
4. Silence the Food Police. 
5. Feel your fullness. 
6. Seek satisfaction. 
7. Cope with emotions without using food. 
8. Respect your body. 
9. Exercise for the sake of exercise. 
10. Honor your health with gentle nutrition. 
 
Overall, these are really good things to work on regardless of your health and fitness goals. Those who have been lurking around [mention=9216]Tanktimus the Encourager[/mention]'s thread have already seen a lot about this book and the benefits to be had. If you've ever been on a restrictive diet, you'll find some good food for thought here. 
 
But....
 
You knew there was a "but" coming, right? 
 
I have a few major reservations about the authors' approach. Just like the diets they reject, this book isn't a one-size-fits-all proposition. There are some serious limitations.
 
Dated nutritional information. The book was written in 1995. Don't let the "3rd Edition" fool you - it may have been republished a couple of times but the nutrition is so 25-years-ago. They literally say that lots of carbs are necessary and if you don't eat plenty of bread and pasta EVERY DAY that horrible things will happen. Regardless of what you think about carbs, y'all know that's just wrong. 
 
So I advise skimming over anywhere they start talking about nutrition and go [mention=3909]Sloth the Enduring[/mention]. I guess you'll just have to cope with your diet-deprivation mindset. 
 
Eating for a purpose is barely mentioned. Blink and you'll miss it. This is the closest thing to hope that the whole book offers those with food intolerances, or who want to avoid certain foods for other reasons. Here's the whole paragraph:
 
Achieving "authentic health" is a process of dynamic integration of your inner world and the external world of health guidelines, which include exercise and nutrition. You decide, if and what, of the external world you'd like to integrate, ultimately, to achieve "authentic health." The external world includes health policy (usually a consensus from experts, based on a body of research). The external world can also include philosophical preferences, such as a desire to eat locally grown foods with a low carbon footprint. If you are truly inner-attuned, you can integrate this value, while paying attention to hunger, fullness, satisfaction, and so forth. If, however, you enter this realm too soon, there is a risk for the new mind-set to be embraced as another rigid set of rules. 
 
Are you using Keto to reverse T2 diabetes? Do you have agonizing IBS, or an auto-immune disorder that flares out of control when you eat certain foods? If so, I'll paraphrase a quote from the awesome movie, The Martian.
 
In the face of overwhelming odds, you're left with only one option: you're going to have to integrate the shit out of this.
 
Bottom line: I think the book makes a lot of good points about how we start out with good intentions and then completely mind-fuck ourselves along the way. Unhooking ourselves from artificial deprivation caused by all-or-nothing dieting can only be good for our mental health - and ultimately, our physical health. But it isn't a perfect program that if followed perfectly will result in eating more while weighing less....hang on, this is starting to sound like a plug for a fad diet, doesn't it? [emoji6] 
 
This book's ultimate value might be in giving people a way to get over all the ingrained disordered-eating diet all-or-nothing thinking that sets us up for failure, so that we can get back to dieting eating the foods we know are best for us, and do it sustainably this time. At least that's my plan.
 

Such a good review! I went from 'OMG, I should read this right now!' to 'yeah, I should read this!' I have been lucky enough that I had nutritionists that had that view and talked about it, but then always gave me a diet... so it confused me a lot!

[Bookish Badger]

10 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

A good review. I kind of suspected that the book wouldn't work for everyone, but I know it's working for me.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm glad it's working for you, and I think a lot of their message would help many. 

 

I got a lot out of it and have been questioning my cravings. I've always had trouble separating hunger (biological) from appetite (usually emotional, often I-saw-it-now-I-want-it triggers) from habit (boredom). I especially crave dessert-like things on Friday nights. 

 

After thinking about it, I realized that I was looking for something "special" to celebrate the end of the week. That used to be a stiff cocktail (or a few), but as we're not drinking anymore that's out. I need some sort of non-food/non-intoxicant .... ritual?... to shift gears from work week to weekend. (Not that I can't have ice cream if I really want it; I'm just not using food to cope anymore  ) What that'll be, no idea yet. 

 

I'm taking the authors' own advice and deciding what of their message, along with as many other sources as possible, I want to integrate into my inner world.

[Diadhuit]

 
Thank you.
 
I'm glad it's working for you, and I think a lot of their message would help many. 
 
I got a lot out of it and have been questioning my cravings. I've always had trouble separating hunger (biological) from appetite (usually emotional, often I-saw-it-now-I-want-it triggers) from habit (boredom). I especially crave dessert-like things on Friday nights. 
 
After thinking about it, I realized that I was looking for something "special" to celebrate the end of the week. That used to be a stiff cocktail (or a few), but as we're not drinking anymore that's out. I need some sort of non-food/non-intoxicant .... ritual?... to shift gears from work week to weekend. (Not that I can't have ice cream if I really want it; I'm just not using food to cope anymore [emoji6] ) What that'll be, no idea yet. 
 
I'm taking the authors' own advice and deciding what of their message, along with as many other sources as possible, I want to integrate into my inner world.

Give me a shout when you find that ritual! You just made me realire that I do a lot of Friday evening binge eating to relieve the stress of the week and get ready for the weekend!

[Bookish Badger]

Week 3 Update

We just finished Week 3, right? I've lost track. Anyway, here goes.

 

Keto eating: 6/7. One Light Armor point.

Walking: 7/7. One Athletics point.

Exercise: 5/7. One Blade point.

Gratitude Journal: 2/7. No Restoration point.

 

 

[Severine]

14 hours ago, Bookish Badger said:

Week 3 Update

We just finished Week 3, right? I've lost track. Anyway, here goes.

 

Keto eating: 6/7. One Light Armor point.

Walking: 7/7. One Athletics point.

Exercise: 5/7. One Blade point.

Gratitude Journal: 2/7. No Restoration point.

 

You appear to have crushed this week. Nicely done!

 

And thanks very much for the thorough and thoughtful review of the book. It's funny because some of the things you talked about were some of the big question marks I had in my head about the book, especially the part about hyper-palatable food and the difficulty of letting your body's natural appetite regulation grapple with food designed to confound that very system.

 

I do think, from what I've heard from you and Tank, that the book has many good points. Listening to fullness, paying attention to how the body feels after eating, questioning whether urges to eat are hunger or something else, and avoiding a moral approach to food that deems it "good" or "bad" in a sense that brings shame. All of these sound great! But for me, I suspect that finding peace with food is going to involve finding an approach that feels comfortable and healthy and that I will not view as oppressively restrictive, but which has more structure than what's outlined in the book.

 

I think ultimately even the best books or approaches are never going to 100% fit everyone, but there's a lot of value in mining those resources for the parts that fit and piecing together your own approach from a variety of sources that speak to you. It sounds like that's what you've done and I hope the parts you've taken from the book add to your overall sense of making peace with food and cravings and such.

[Jarric]

Thank you for writing that review, it made for some really interesting reading.

 

On 21/01/2018 at 12:04 AM, Bookish Badger said:

But we're not talking about real food. What do people binge on? Sweets, baked goods, convenience snack foods. These are the things that we inhale in quantity and when it's gone, we go looking for more even though we're so stuffed we are miserable and hate ourselves. Why do we do this? 

 

It might be because of diet-induced deprivation, but it might also be because these food products are literally engineered to make us want more. The manufacturers even brag about it:

 

So I'm not sure how realistic it is to tell people they'll be "satisfied with a small handful" of something engineered to leave you unsatisfied. Wouldn't it be easier just to avoid these "foods" altogether? 

 

Interestingly, I agree with the authors on this point. I find that if I measure out a portion of crisps or chocolate (and then put the rest away before I start eating my portion), then once I've eaten it I am satisfied and I don't crave any more. This does of course only work when I am already in the mindset of preparing a portion size in the first place, but I do think it is doable.

 

 

On 21/01/2018 at 2:56 PM, Bookish Badger said:

I got a lot out of it and have been questioning my cravings. I've always had trouble separating hunger (biological) from appetite (usually emotional, often I-saw-it-now-I-want-it triggers) from habit (boredom).

 

I certainly know that feeling. Even when I'm concentrating on it I often can't tell the difference between "hunger", "stress" and "I did a core workout yesterday" either! Any tips on that from the book, or is it simply a case of assessing your eating desires more often?

[zeroh13]

On 1/21/2018 at 9:56 AM, Bookish Badger said:

After thinking about it, I realized that I was looking for something "special" to celebrate the end of the week. That used to be a stiff cocktail (or a few), but as we're not drinking anymore that's out. I need some sort of non-food/non-intoxicant .... ritual?... to shift gears from work week to weekend. (Not that I can't have ice cream if I really want it; I'm just not using food to cope anymore  ) What that'll be, no idea yet. 

 

On 1/22/2018 at 6:56 AM, Diadhuit said:

Give me a shout when you find that ritual! You just made me realire that I do a lot of Friday evening binge eating to relieve the stress of the week and get ready for the weekend!

 

Some ideas:

 

Playing a game

Reading a book

Taking a bubble bath (or use bath salts, or any of the other fancy bath things)

Listening to a podcast or music (as in just sit and listen to the music, or dance, or listen to music while taking a relaxing bath)

Get a massage

 

Basically, find something fun and/or pamper yourself, and make that the thing you do (and look forward to) on Fridays.

[Bookish Badger]

8 hours ago, Jarric said:

Any tips on that from the book, or is it simply a case of assessing your eating desires more often?

The book recommends "checking in" with your body frequently - throughout the day, right before meals, a few times during, and after meals, etc. - to determine if you're really hungry or not. If you aren't sure, wait a little while before eating anything and see what happens.

 

The clients they see have such disordered eating, if not full-blown eating disorders, that they have no clue what "hungry" feels like. Either they eat so little and on such a strict schedule that they've completely shut out the hunger signals, or they are in a rebound phase and eat constantly. That's why recognizing that one is hungry - and feeding oneself when hungry, even if lunch was only an hour ago - is the first step. The authors acknowledge that this can be a difficult step for many, but necessary before any further work can be done.

 

Perhaps ironically, this awareness has encouraged me to eat less. Since I've been eating ketogenicly (if that's a word) I don't experience much hunger and I've been having difficulty remembering to eat during the day. I pack a snack and a lunch, will usually eat the snack somewhere between 10-11am - I start work around 6am- then...really don't feel like eating anything more until dinner. I'd been forcing down lunch because "I need to," but then decided, hey, forcing myself to eat when I'm not hungry isn't honoring my hunger. So if I really don't feel like eating, I save it for the next day.

 

I'm hungry by dinner, but it's a "wow I get to eat soon and it's going to taste soooo good" hunger, not a "don't get between me and the fridge if you value your life" ravenousness. It's hard to describe but for now it's working.

[Bean Sidhe]

Thank you for the awesome book review. It sounds like that book has already helped you with a few things. I went through a period of time where I was eating maybe once a day because "I will eat later" and it is hard to train yourself to eat regularly. I still have issues with this and I ultimately started by setting alarms to remind me to eat. In fact, I generally still don't get hungry, but I will "crash" I guess, where i become a snickers commercial. I get all weepy and tired and I just stop. I have finally taught myself that when I see that to go eat and see if it helps. But I never realize I am hungry, just running on empty. Make sense.

Great job last week with your goals. Keep it up

[Bookish Badger]

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