A Discussion about God

[Guest Snake McClain]

I need to say some things.

First. I love all of you guys. Period.

Second. I respect that we can all have a differing view here.

Third myblove and respect for you guys is the ONLY reason I don't get defensive by this thread. It seems somehow no one has blown this up yet and its probably because of the same reasons I don't. Just be very careful not to let this go bad if you're keeping it going.

[humanperson832]

It is taking every ounce of will power I have to not scour the internet for a clip from the first South Park movie where they say that the correct religion is Mormon. Or the episode where they write the song about how the book of Mormon was written.

Because South Park does cultural satire to perfection.

[So Late So Soon]

i knew it was only a matter of time

[dshale]

Also, saw this the other day - I figure the NF demographic can appreciate the humor, regardless of your beliefs.

After reading that I could hear Alec Guinness's voice saying it.

[Guest Tigger]

I don't really see why this thread would need to be shut down... yet... but I understand the concerns.

I don't have a specific religion I adhere to, but I do like talking about the subject in a civilized manner. One of my biggest hang-ups has always been how people can even fight over things like religion because from what I understand, it's a deeply personal matter. Sometimes I just want to drag the people fighting outside and make them watch a sunset or something. They're surrounded by a world that is truly beautiful and they are missing it because they are too busy fighting I understand religion to be a part of the person, almost like an arm that you never knew you had... and anything that allows you to know more about yourself can't be a bad thing, right? My dad calls himself a 'Roman Catholic once removed') always tells me that he loves Faith, but can't stand religion. I think that's similar to the human element that was being discussed earlier.

For me it's obvious that there has to be something higher than we humans can understand. If you go back you eventually get to the point where science is stumped for now (ex: chicken, egg, fish, bacteria, cell, big bang, particle of big bang...unknown) and that's where I wonder what happened because it's almost too perfect for random circumstance (phi, pi, etc.). I'm just not willing to assign human reasoning and interpretation to what is clearly beyond our comprehension thus far, it's too big of a gap for me :\

I'm sorry If I started anything bad with this. I just thought a drastically different view on "God" may be appreciated

PM me if it needs to be deleted!

[herpius_derpius7]

Guys, I really don't see this thread going anywhere productive. I think we should lay it to rest before it gets closed down. For the good of Nerd Fitness.

I'm just going to be honest when I say that I don't really understand why. I suppose I've never had experience with a discussion that actually has indeed turned sour. I personally think we had a great exchange of ideas going on, and I am open to whatever anyone has and had to say because each time someone makes a comment it makes me think more deeply about what I believe and challenge it further and thus strength it -- or perhaps even re-evaluate it.

I also never intended to offend anyone with my comments and if I have caused people to get defensive internally then I apologize; once again, it's just so rare to find a group of individuals so open to philosophical discussion about God -- and it seemed like most of us actively participating in the debate had pretty cool heads about the subject.

Also, I want to make it clear that I have nothing against Christianity. I was raised Catholic for eighteen years of my life -- it's just that afterwards, I found something that felt better and made more sense to me. Oystergirl was right when she said

Benchmarks of a valid religion:

Does it connect you to the divine?

Does it make you a better person?

Does it help you play nice with others?

Answer yes to all three... we're good.

I feel this way about any and every religion; I just don't personally adhere to a strict, easily recognizable "religious faith". That doesn't mean that I reject their validity in the eyes of other people.

Like I said, I honestly don't see why this thread should be shut down, but I respect that that is the majority opinion. This is my last post in this thread, but once again, if anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to PM me! I'm not easily angered and I enjoy discussing things, and I'd like to think I'm relatively open-minded!

But this thread, while it lasted, was wonderful. Thank you to everyone who participated. I think that I learned a lot today

[Silentplanet]

Benchmarks of a valid religion:

Does it connect you to the divine?

Does it make you a better person?

Does it help you play nice with others?

Answer yes to all three... we're good.

and that's all I'm saying on the subject.

I find it sad that some people need religion to "make them a better person" and "play nice with others". I think that should be up to the person alone.

[Guest Tigger]

I find it sad that some people need religion to "make them a better person" and "play nice with others". I think that should be up to the person alone.

I think it was in response to the question of "What constitutes a valid religion?"

I looked at it more like a bonus point. For example: Happiness 20/20, Friendliness 20/20.... Link discovered 'Religion'!...Happiness 21/21, Friendliness 21/21. So without religion a person can still be full (20/20), and they can be full with religion (21/21). But once they make religion a part of themselves, without it, they feel incomplete (20/21).

wait....did that even make sense? (really bad at explaining myself)

[Guest Gemeaux]

My main issue with religion is the whole anti gay marriage thing . I am not going to get into the discussion about why I do not believe in God . I would get banned .

There is no point arguing about God , no one is going to change their mind .

[Lachy]

I really don't think this thread is a good idea. This is a fitness forum, and though we do discuss many aspects of life, religion is a contentious issue. If this is a Christian thread, will other religious threads be allowed/encouraged? Then a sub forum? Where do you draw the line? How can you have a healthy discussion of varying ideas and beliefs? You can't. If you could you should get a job with the UN, they could use you!

I think discussions of faith should be kept to other sites.

[Bean]

I am sad to have missed this thread last night - I was sleeping while all the debate was going on.

Being a Christian and married to a methodist minister, it has been very interesting to read and I would love to have contributed some thoughts - particularly on why the bible is so man-centred and the difference between faith and religion.

Reluctantly however, I have to agree that the thread should be shut-down. This is a fitness forum and although this thread is in the off topic lobby, I still think it is a little too off topic.

[Korosia]

I really don't think this thread is a good idea. This is a fitness forum, and though we do discuss many aspects of life, religion is a contentious issue. If this is a Christian thread, will other religious threads be allowed/encouraged? Then a sub forum? Where do you draw the line? How can you have a healthy discussion of varying ideas and beliefs? You can't. If you could you should get a job with the UN, they could use you!

I think discussions of faith should be kept to other sites.

I must admit, it had never occured to me that it might get that out of hand. I light of that, I agree that it would be a good idea that this discussion ended, on the NF forum at least. If anyone can think of anywhere else we could continue this discussion, I'd definatly be up for that, but as Bean said this is ultimatly a fitness forum and as much as this discussion has been great, we probably should stop before it starts distrupting things.

[Guest Snake McClain]

I must admit, it had never occured to me that it might get that out of hand. I light of that, I agree that it would be a good idea that this discussion ended, on the NF forum at least. If anyone can think of anywhere else we could continue this discussion, I'd definatly be up for that, but as Bean said this is ultimatly a fitness forum and as much as this discussion has been great, we probably should stop before it starts distrupting things.

Become Facebook friends with the people you want to talk about it with. Talk there.

[msuroo]

Become Facebook friends with the people you want to talk about it with. Talk there.

Lol, you can almost feel all of the things that Bruce wants to yell in this post. Anyway, the fact that just the presence of a religious discussion triggers these kinds of responses (or thoughts, from those who have remained quiet but share that opinion) is a good enough reason to can the thread.

We're all part of the same rebellion, but thoughts and ideas become incompatible pretty quickly when religion and politics come into play. Don't surpress your faith, by any means, but I think it's best if we keep the actual theological discussion elsewhere. Not to single out Loren, but he has struck this balance nicely.

I'm not a mod or admin or anything -that's just my opinion.

[Guest Snake McClain]

Lol, you can almost feel all of the things that Bruce wants to yell in this post. Anyway, the fact that just the presence of a religious discussion triggers these kinds of responses (or thoughts, from those who have remained quiet but share that opinion) is a good enough reason to can the thread.

We're all part of the same rebellion, but thoughts and ideas become incompatible pretty quickly when religion and politics come into play. Don't surpress your faith, by any means, but I think it's best if we keep the actual theological discussion elsewhere. Not to single out Loren, but he has struck this balance nicely.

I'm not a mod or admin or anything -that's just my opinion.

I didn't mean to sound venomous. :/ sorry if I did guys.

[bigm141414]

I didn't mean to sound venomous. :/ sorry if I did guys.

Snake, sounding venomous....nooooooo. I crack myself up sometimes.

[msuroo]

I didn't mean to sound venomous. :/ sorry if I did guys.

It wasn't, and sorry to use you as an example - I was just trying to point out that a diacussion on religion inevitably triggers strong emotional reactions, and that's a good enough reason not to do it (even if the thread itself remains civil).

[dshale]

I would hate anyone to take offense to things I and others post here. I am not uptight about things and can take a punch. If it stays light and doesn't get into more heated subjects then this could be a flourishing discussion.

They're topics on finance and other self improvement here. If this is taken the right way based on principles and looking at the Bible as the word of God and not taken out of context then it can be very productive. So many aspects in life are discussed in the Bible and a discussion of religion and the Bible can be fitness related. One could take the following as an encouragement to change ones diet:

Daniel 1:8-16 (NIV)

8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way. 9 Now God had caused the official to show favor and compassion to Daniel, 10 but the official told Daniel, “I am afraid of my lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. Why should he see you looking worse than the other young men your age? The king would then have my head because of you.”

11 Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, 12 “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” 14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.

15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. 16 So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

[ZenGwen]

Interesting except, dshale.

However, I would also prefer if the discussions on this forum remained mostly secular - or at least, not focused on religion specifically. It's an important force in many of our lives, but in many different ways for different people, and I would really prefer that it remain a topic which is only touched on in passing. It's not a matter of being offended or even of being afraid that arguments will flare up, but I spend enough time discussing and defending my faith in other forums (virtual and otherwise).

Here, I just want to talk about weights and food.

[Barbarossa]

They're topics on finance and other self improvement here. If this is taken the right way based on principles and looking at the Bible as the word of God and not taken out of context then it can be very productive. So many aspects in life are discussed in the Bible and a discussion of religion and the Bible can be fitness related. One could take the following as an encouragement to change ones diet:

Respectfully, the bold sentence above is the kind of thing that I think makes this (in my opinion) not the best fit for this forum, as it seems to imply that the Bible is "the word of God." While I realize that, from a Christian perspective this is true, there are those of us that fall outside the Christian paradigm and the implication is that this is a discussion that we are necessarily excluded from. Perhaps a better frame for such a discussion would be something along the lines of "a discussion of how your personal belief system affects your daily life." This would frame the same question in such a way as to, in my opinion, foster a more open and inclusive state of mind that would allow the larger community of atheists, non-theists, Neo-Pagans, Taoists, Buddhists, etc. a voice without denying the Christians here the opportunity to express their opinions.

Finance and self improvement are topics that all of us can be involved in, regardless of religious/philosophical outlook. I think that it would be an interesting discussion especially when one takes the attitude of mutual respect that the members of this community foster. However, religion and politics are very sensitive issues, and it would be easy to cause hard feelings among the community; this would be a tragedy.

Just my opinion of the issue, and I'll now bow out and let the community sort it out.

Regards,

P

[bigm141414]

Here, I just want to talk about weights and food.

We could talk about pastafarianism. You know since it is has a food based deity

/snark.

[The Tin Man]

I was just trying to point out that a diacussion on religion inevitably triggers strong emotional reactions, and that's a good enough reason not to do it (even if the thread itself remains civil).

Yep. Even a civil discussion about religion is highly unstable. And if just one person lashes out...

[Artinum]

We could talk about pastafarianism. You know since it is has a food based deity

/snark.

No, we really can't. Pasta is far too carb-laden. Now, a god made entirely of chicken and cottage cheese would be another matter, but that would be ridiculous.

I'm afraid I can't support the idea that the bible is the word of God. Not unless you accept the good bits and the bad bits together - and there are a lot of bad bits in there, and some downright confusing bits as well. The bible as the word of man, inspired by the word of God - that works better. It allows for error, political rewrites, plain misunderstandings and the interpretation of allegory as fact (or vice versa). Otherwise, if all of it is God's work, he's a terrible writer.

[macnip78]

Of course this is a slippery slope discussion, but it doesn't need to be closed. People are finite. Religion is a belief system based in faith. Faith can not be proven, the definition of the word is believing in something without proof. So, we are discussing a topic that is bigger than us. If we can keep an open mind and not judge each other, we should be fine.

Now, I'm a Christian. We tend to get a bad rap from the group of Christians who condemn people. Christianity is based in one thing, forgiveness. We are all forgiven of our sins through Christ. The people who condemn aren't following Christ. They are 'casting the first stone.' Everyone sins. There are no levels to it in God's eye. A sin is a sin. Lying is just as bad as murder (at least to God). Condemning someone is judging someone, our job as Christians isn't to judge (judging is actually a sin). We forgive. 'Hate the sin, not the sinner.'

[macnip78]

No, we really can't. Pasta is far too carb-laden. Now, a god made entirely of chicken and cottage cheese would be another matter, but that would be ridiculous.

I'm afraid I can't support the idea that the bible is the word of God. Not unless you accept the good bits and the bad bits together - and there are a lot of bad bits in there, and some downright confusing bits as well. The bible as the word of man, inspired by the word of God - that works better. It allows for error, political rewrites, plain misunderstandings and the interpretation of allegory as fact (or vice versa). Otherwise, if all of it is God's work, he's a terrible writer.

Why wouldn't you accept the good bits and the bad bits? Definitely not being accusatory here, just asking