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30 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

It's everywhere! Is this food good or bad for you? Is it healthy? How much of it should/could you eat? It's something my wife and I talk about in regards to our kids. We obviously don't want them to develop any kind of eating disorder. But still we sometimes hear them ask "Is this food healthy?" "Is this food satiating?" It's really difficult to know how to talk about these things. They obviously notice that their friends (and their friends parents) eat more cookies and candy than what we want our kids to eat. And so the questions come...

Oh geez, it must be sooo difficult with kids! Especially if you're struggling with those issues yourself and have conflicts with your wife about it, kids pick up on that shit. :/

 

32 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

This is so easy to say, and even "know" when looking at it with a clear head. But when it really comes down to it I still have difficulties with this thought :( I guess you could say that I "know" it, but don't "feel" it.

Yep. Me too. Or rather, for me it's conditional as @@mu mentioned, if I feel strong and still haul up my butt then it's kind of ok, but it's still problematic. I don't know how to solve it though. I think one thing that can help is observing how I think about other people's weight and try to apply the same to my own body. I might observe people as fat but typically I don't judge them for it, or like them less. Why wouldn't the same apply to you? 
 

36 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

I've pretty much stopped questioning "why me" at this point. As you say, does it really matter? What matters is how I handle it going forward!

I think maybe for some people it can help if they can understand their triggers. But as you say it's so complex it's tricky to unravel and action going forward really is the most important thing!

 

37 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

Yeah, I apparently do/did have the discipline to diet. And did end up with a clinical ED. And yeah, it sucks just as much as you think. And it is scary! A couple of weeks ago I watched a video about a girl with bulimia who literally ate herself to death during one of her binges. That truly scared me!

 

:( That's horrific.

 

32 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

 

I've been guilty of this. Sorry. Now I know better. That same podcast as I mentioned in my reply just above mentioned this too. And gave pretty much the same examples as you did, plus a few more. Like a mother breastfeeding her child. No one would (hopefully) never tell a mother to stop breastfeeding her child because "you're just doing it because you're addicted to it!"...

No need to apologize, media is doing a hell of a job of taking snippets out of scientific articles and completely bastardizing them. It's extremely difficult to get an objective view of food and nutrition these days as there are so many extremist views that shout louder.

I'm just glad that you're finding the anti-diet movement and health at every size movement just as eye-opening as I did! I really believe that changing one's value systems it's the first step to long term sanity. 

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10 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

 

I was listening to a podcast this morning about this actually. They saw it more as a behavioral addiction than a substance addiction. Like gambling, or sex addiction. Not like cocaine abuse. Made a lot of sense to me when I heard it actually.

 

That makes a lot of sense to me too. Because then it also works for food restriction (no substance...) and "auxiliary" rituals. It's not uncommon for people with an ED to have some OCD as well or traits that fall under "personality disorders" issues (not a fan of that term though).

 

Also re the risking getting fat / accepting that a smaller vs bigger weight doesn't matter:  I do think this is key,  but I also think it's much harder for people  who are seen as big/fat by society and are regularly shamed because of it.  There is discrimination between the different types of EDs too (e.g. anorexia vs bulimia vs binge eating). People still assume that you cannot be anorexic if you are not feather weight.  Fortunately it's changing but anorexia almost passed as glamorous at some point... Now it's fit and lean, but it's not that much better...

 

1 hour ago, Tobbe said:

Yeah, I apparently do/did have the discipline to diet. And did end up with a clinical ED.

 

That level of discipline is still encouraged by society, it does have a positive ring to it while binges are the little out-of-control disgusting monsters, right? I will caricature a bit, bear with me, but imo it's quite the opposite. Binges are the rebels revolting against a form of fascism. Whether it's your little internal judgment voice or social/peer pressure. But they are the bit of life in you saying "no I can't take this any more, I deserve to feel satisfied ffs". I do agree they can end up being pretty self-destructive. They will scale to the level of authoritarianism you are facing... But there is a voice in them asking to be listened to.

 

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3 minutes ago, @mu said:

Binges are the rebels revolting against a form of fascism. Whether it's your little internal judgment voice or social/peer pressure. But they are the bit of life in you saying "no I can't take this any more, I deserve to feel satisfied ffs". I do agree they can end up being pretty self-destructive. They will scale to the level of authoritarianism you are facing... But there is a voice in them asking to be listened to.

I really like this. Especially the last part.

 

6 minutes ago, @mu said:

I do think this is key,  but I also think it's much harder for people who are seen as big/fat by society and are regularly shamed because of it.

100%. Thin privileges are very real and I'm uncomfortably aware that my situation is very different from someone considered fat.

 

6 minutes ago, @mu said:

There is discrimination between the different types of EDs too (e.g. anorexia vs bulimia vs binge eating)

Which is fucking insane.

 

23 minutes ago, @mu said:

anorexia almost passed as glamorous at some point... Now it's fit and lean, but it's not that much better...

It really isn't - orthorexia is the new anorexia.

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1 hour ago, Mad Hatter said:

Oh geez, it must be sooo difficult with kids! Especially if you're struggling with those issues yourself and have conflicts with your wife about it, kids pick up on that shit. :/

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I have my portions under control at the moment, but what I am eating is pretty crap overall. I'm trying to get better, but then the kids want something and it looks, smells, and sounds so much better than what I am having... It's tough.

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3 hours ago, Tobbe said:

I was listening to a podcast this morning about this actually.

 

3 hours ago, Tobbe said:

That same podcast as I mentioned in my reply just above mentioned this too.

 

If anyone's interested, this is the episode: http://dietitiansunplugged.libsyn.com/episode-39-is-sugar-addiction-a-real-thing

 

What buggs me a little bit though is how they basically use "food addiction" and "sugar addiction" interchangeably. And then go on and compare it to for example alcohol addiction, saying "You can live a life without alcohol, but you can't live without food". And that's obviously true. But you can in fact live a life without candy and cookies. And probably without refined sugar too, but that is much more difficult just because there is sugar added to sooo much food.

 

And I also didn't like how they said something about cookies in the break room at work. Something along the lines of "You might be able to resist it three or four times, but eventually you're going to break down, so you're better of learning how to deal with it/eat it". To me that's like saying to an alcoholic "You might be able to resist that can of beer offered to you a few times, but eventually you're going to drink it, so you better learn how to drink responsibly". Which is totally not how the typical approach to alcohol abuse treatment goes...

 

But yeah, still worth listening to. Did bring up many valid points and views on things :) 

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18 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

To me that's like saying to an alcoholic "You might be able to resist that can of beer offered to you a few times, but eventually you're going to drink it, so you better learn how to drink responsibly". Which is totally not how the typical approach to alcohol abuse treatment goes...

Perhaps not but on the other hand the idea is not to struggle through and fighting the cookie every single day for the rest of your life. That’s not a real treatment that’s preemptive damage control. 

 

The idea is to be able to eat like a “normal” person, who can eat a cookie, or even five, without guilt and shame and self judgement. And if you choose to not eat any cookies it shouldn’t be a moral judgement, or as a response to fear, but simply a choice of whether you want it or not at the given moment.

 

Yes you could live a life avoiding all sugar, but since you enjoy it (when not bingeing) then why would you want to cut it out of your life? (Health is not a valid answer here, yes too much is bad but that truly only happens when you binge anyway. And even then your body is still healthy.) That’s just going to lead to an endless cycle of feeling deprived and then bingeing. It also doesn’t need to be so black and white, one day you might want to eat and one day it might not be worth it, that’s fine.

 

I don’t know how equal substance abuse is to food abuse, and if fighting substance every day is the only way to go (i.e. whether “once a junkie always a junkie is true,” I think not but don’t know enough about substance treatment options) but at least with EDs that’s definitely not true and shouldn’t be something to aim for.

 

I also think it’s important to do things one step at a time. Getting to grips with the disorder should come first, then think about nutrition and food choices when you’re in a better headspace to make those choices. And the thing is you’re already doing great by mostly eating really tasty, varied and fresh food, so it’s not like you have to restrict because of disease or anything like that, which makes things a lot more difficult. It’s so much more important to focus on your mental health and happiness and then you can fine tune your nutrition if you still feel the need. But baby steps!

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2 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

but simply a choice of whether you want it or not at the given moment.

 

I've yet to encounter a situation where I deep down truly don't want the cookie. But some day I might get there... 

 

2 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

why would you want to cut it out of your life?

 

Ohh, I don't! But as you say, I do want to be able to act like a normal person around sugar (and food).

 

2 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

It’s so much more important to focus on your mental health and happiness

 

Yes! I wish I could just let all the food obsession and crap go, and focus on mental health, happiness, energy to do the things I want to do, etc! But it's so hard!

 

I watched part of a YT video today about a girl who tried to eat for just $1.50 per day, which is apparently the poverty line/limit in USA. It had nothing to do with diet, health, fitness or anything like that. Just awareness about poor people, and that not everyone has the means to eat real fancy food all the time. Anyway... The first thing she said she noticed was that she felt that she didn't get enough food/energy, because the portions were just too small. And that in turn gave her problems concentrating, focusing on the work she had to do, remembering things...  Those are all things I'm having trouble with as well. I hope the answer is as easy as I just need to eat more. But I don't know. And I'm scared to try :( Both because I'm afraid of getting "fat", but also - what if I'm really is just this stupid, lazy and with low work morale, regardless of how much I eat? Now at least I have something to "blame" it on...

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5 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

I've yet to encounter a situation where I deep down truly don't want the cookie. But some day I might get there... 

And that's ok too!

 

6 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

But it's so hard!

I know. Sorry. :( 

 

6 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

And that in turn gave her problems concentrating, focusing on the work she had to do, remembering things...  Those are all things I'm having trouble with as well. I hope the answer is as easy as I just need to eat more.

Looking at your portion sizes and activity level you absolutely need to eat more. 

 

8 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

what if I'm really is just this stupid, lazy and with low work morale, regardless of how much I eat?

Ooor you'll find out it's only because you've been spending all your time stressing and worrying about food.

And if you still feel that way then you'll deal with that too.

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20 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Ooor you'll find out it's only because you've been spending all your time stressing and worrying about food.

 

Ohh, 110% this too! It's so incredibly tiring and distracting! I wish it would just go away sometimes. But on the other hand - I love food. It's my greatest hobby right now. What would I do if I didn't allow myself to enjoy cooking? Create recipes, etc?

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26 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

 

Ohh, 110% this too! It's so incredibly tiring and distracting! I wish it would just go away sometimes. But on the other hand - I love food. It's my greatest hobby right now. What would I do if I didn't allow myself to enjoy cooking? Create recipes, etc?

Stressing and worrying sounds kinda the opposite to enjoying cooking to me. ;) You can still have a healthy obsession with cooking, it's the eating part that's problematic really. But I'm convinced it doesn't have to be and won't be forever. 

But I know what you mean - I sometimes feel like things would be so much easier if I could be on of those people that just see food as nutrients and a necessary means to survival. But it would be a lot less fun! :) 

 

12 minutes ago, Arkania said:

I think you already got better (eat more, eat fruit etc) in case of eating! @Tobbe

For sure!

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1 hour ago, Mad Hatter said:

Stressing and worrying sounds kinda the opposite to enjoying cooking to me

 

Ohh, no, cooking is very calming. Almost therapeutic. It's thinking about all the eating in the future, or thinking back about all I ate that I shouldn't have eaten that's stressing.

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