• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Jarric

Putting Together a New Lifting Programme

Recommended Posts

Hi all, I'm putting together a new lifting programme for myself and was hoping to tap into the collective wisdom of the NF nerds to help put it together. Before I get fully into it, the tl;dr version is that I've been doing Juggernaut, I'm looking for something with a bit of a quicker turnaround, and I've hashed together something based on the principles of Juggernaut and 5-3-1 which I would love your help in refining.

 

Background

Currently most of my training focus is on running Obstacle Course Races (OCRs) and on bouldering (rock climbing). Because of this I run four times per week and climb as often as possible (which will only be once per week for the next couple of months). My remaining training is two lifting days and a swimming day, and it's the two lifting days I want help with programming.

 

I have been working using the Juggernaut programme, but only doing one major lift each day I'm taking two weeks to do what would be one week of the programme. For Juggernaut that means one training cycle takes 8 weeks and the full programme takes 32 weeks to run (plus if I miss a session for any reason it extends that time). It seems to me that spreading out my lifting so much is a bit problematic as it means I'm only doing each big lift once every two weeks, and overall I'm finding it hard to see progress and keep motivation when it takes 32 weeks for me to be in a comparative training block.

 

Ideally I'll have an hour in the morning for each gym session, including 5 minutes to do a basic mobility warm-up and at least 5 minutes at the end to stretch, but some days I may only manage 45 minutes. I'll be continuing to go to my local leisure centre gym which is generally fairly well kitted out with power racks, a deadlift platform and a few machines. I work out first thing in the morning, before breakfast and before work.

 

Stats

I am 29 years old, 5'10" (~175cm), and about 11 stone 10 (=164#, ~75kg).

 

My current working maxes (not tested 1RMs) are:

  • Bench: 62kg (~136#)
  • Squat: 85kg (~187#)
  • Overhead Press: 46kg (~101#)
  • Deadlift: 127kg (~279#)

 

The Plan So Far

I wanted to combine two big lifts into each day, and move to something where I can hopefully see incremental progress month-on-month. I like the idea of Jim Wendler's 5-3-1 programme for that basis, but I don't like the idea of pushing to failure every workout or continually testing my 1RM as I don't think that will sit well with my running training or with various races that I take part in. To start with I'm going to try out a similar system but with the rep scheme as 8-5-3 rather than 5-3-1. The last set of each workout I will push over the prescribed reps, but stealing an idea from Juggernaut I'll be leaving 2-3 reps in the tank on week one and 1-2 reps in the tank in week two, only actually going to failure on week three. Percentages for the four week cycle will be as follows:

 

8's Week:  60% x 8, 70% x 8, 80% x 8+

5's Week: 65% x 5, 75% x 5, 85% x 5+

8-5-3 Week: 70% x 8, 80% x 5, 90% x 3+

Deload Week: 40% x 5, 50% x 5, 60% x 5

 

Percentages will be of my "working max", which is 90% of my estimated 1RM. Estimated 1RM will be calculated at the end of week 3 in each cycle based on the following formula: weight + (weight*reps*0.033). (For example if I lift 80kg for 8 reps that gives me an estimated max of 80 + (80*8*0.033) = 80+21.12 = 101.12kg. Working max will be 90% of that, so 91kg.)

 

Assistance

Assistance is something I've really not quite got figured out yet, and any advice would be hugely helpful. To start with I'm going to add two assistance exercises to each day for 3 sets of 12, and see how it going from there and how that fits in time-wise. To start with I'm thinking:

 

Day 1 - Bench and Squat:

  • Dumbell Row (20kg per hand, 3x12) - Because I feel like there should be some upper body pulling work here?
  • Reverse Lunge (16kg per hand, 3x12) - Because I've found that regular squats and lunges combined are pretty much essential to keep me from getting hip problems when i run.

 

Day 2 - OHP and Deadlift:

  • Lat Pulldowns (85#, 3x12) - Because this kind of pulling strength is massively important for climbing, and I'm not strong enough to do pullups for sets of 12 yet (or even sets of 8).
  • Single leg straight leg deadlift (6kg per hand, 3x12) - I recently added this in as a hamstring exercise, but also to improve my balance and hopefully build some stabilising strength to help protect my ankles which can be slightly dodgy.

 

So that'as it! I'll be having my first go at this tomorrow and will tweak it with any advice I receive and information I gain from experimenting as I go. I'm not running a challenge this cycle, so for the next two weeks I'll also be using this as a place to update generally regarding this plan and how it's affecting my other training.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could also try to continue to run JTS with the lifts stacked and lag your second lift by one week if you're worried about too much fatigue or set time during the workout.

 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking at doing something similar. A 2 day lifting program to give me time to focus on all the other stuff I'm cramming into my life ;) It's worth pointing out that JTS has a suggested training plan for a 2 day a week program which essentially works by combining it with 5,3,1 on alternating weeks. 

 

Trying to figure out how to explain this and remember it off the top of my head. 

 

So say your first day is squat and bench. You'd do JTS for the squat and 531 for the bench. Then the other day you'd do JTS for OHP and 531 for Deadlift. So that you are alternating the upper and lower and keeping the high volume jts for just one of each and using the lower volume 531 for the alternative. 

 

Then the next week you flip it. That does extend out the mesocycle to 7 weeks instead of 4 and i know one of the things you are trying to do is shorten the cycle. Honestly, that's also why I'm not just going for it myself. 

 

 

For my own part I'm thinking about something closer to what you've proposed. I'm somewhat unconvinced by the lack of volume in 5,3,1 especially when only lifting twice a week but it has a real advantage of being a lot faster to run through. RangerBrain tells me that the less time I spend on the 'main lifts' the more time I have for other stuff ;) .   I believe pullups and dips belong in the main lifts section when thinking about the sport of OCR and I have come to accept that I need to be doing a lot more unilateral work (and core work) to support the insane amount of running I want to do next year.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Orion Antares said:

You could also try to continue to run JTS with the lifts stacked and lag your second lift by one week if you're worried about too much fatigue or set time during the workout.

 

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

That's a good point, I hadn't looked at it that way. It would mean never getting a deload week, but it's something to mull over.

 

 

1 hour ago, jonfirestar said:

I'm looking at doing something similar. A 2 day lifting program to give me time to focus on all the other stuff I'm cramming into my life ;) It's worth pointing out that JTS has a suggested training plan for a 2 day a week program which essentially works by combining it with 5,3,1 on alternating weeks. 

 

Trying to figure out how to explain this and remember it off the top of my head. 

 

So say your first day is squat and bench. You'd do JTS for the squat and 531 for the bench. Then the other day you'd do JTS for OHP and 531 for Deadlift. So that you are alternating the upper and lower and keeping the high volume jts for just one of each and using the lower volume 531 for the alternative. 

 

Then the next week you flip it. That does extend out the mesocycle to 7 weeks instead of 4 and i know one of the things you are trying to do is shorten the cycle. Honestly, that's also why I'm not just going for it myself. 

 

 

For my own part I'm thinking about something closer to what you've proposed. I'm somewhat unconvinced by the lack of volume in 5,3,1 especially when only lifting twice a week but it has a real advantage of being a lot faster to run through. RangerBrain tells me that the less time I spend on the 'main lifts' the more time I have for other stuff ;) .   I believe pullups and dips belong in the main lifts section when thinking about the sport of OCR and I have come to accept that I need to be doing a lot more unilateral work (and core work) to support the insane amount of running I want to do next year.

 

Funnily enough I was doing the JTS programme with 531 assistance, except I was doing a variation for the 531 element (so the 531 exercises were floor press, front squat, OHP and defecit deadlift).As you say though it still keeps the cycle pretty long.

 

I know what you mean about the volume on 531, it feels like too much weight and too little work for me somehow.

 

For assistance what do you mean by unilateral work? As in single leg/single arm exercises? Core wise I'm a bit torn because I hate core exercises, and I'm somewhat convinced I can get away with pull-ups, deadlifts and climbing to build core strength.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had my first run-through of my draft plan this morning. My top set on bench I stopped at 5 reps instead of the full 8 as I could feel myself getting near failure (I really need to get used to trusting the safety bars for bench so I can go to failure). My top set on squats I stopped at 6 reps as my form was breaking down. So it might be that these percentages are too heavy for sets of 8. Or it might be that I was just having a bad day and a bit rusty after a week on holiday. More experimentation needed.

 

After the above I was also shattered and very short on time, so I got in a single set of dumbell rows and called that it. To keep things sensible time wise I might need to cut down on my warm-up sets on the main lifts. Full set breakdowns (in kg) were:

  • Joint mobility warm-up
  • Bench: 20 x 2 x 5, 30 x 5, 35 x 5, 40 x 8, 47.5 x 8, 52.5 x 5
  • Squat: 20 x 2 x 5, 40 x 5, 50 x 5, 60 x 8, 65 x 8, 75 x 6
  • DB Row: 22/hand x 12
  • Stretched

Total time: 54 minutes.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How you deload can be up to you. Some people need that full deload, some do not. You'll still be deloading the primary lift and accessory and related joints. If you need the deload to address fatigue, you could just deload both lifts, then complete the other lift's realization the week after when you start the new lift's load phase. Deloads are meant to address either of two things, one is fatigue of the muscles, the other is to allow your joints to recover on light work. If you don't feel you need to do a complete deload to recover from general fatigue, then a targeted deload can work to give the targeted muscles and joints a chance to recover.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jarric said:

I know what you mean about the volume on 531, it feels like too much weight and too little work for me somehow.

 

Exactly, right? But I think I really should actually run it through for a cycle to actually figure out whether or not it's just my own prejudice speaking. With the amount of volume I have in my running it does make some sense to keep the lifting volume down a little. 

 

1 hour ago, Jarric said:

For assistance what do you mean by unilateral work? As in single leg/single arm exercises?

 

Single leg exercises, specifically. Including things like lunges and split squats, which are asymmetrical rather than single leg. They have the added benefit of helping with proprioception and balance as well as strengthen ankles. This stuff came highly recommended from my physio and I'm beginning to understand the benefits. 

 

1 hour ago, Jarric said:

Core wise I'm a bit torn because I hate core exercises, and I'm somewhat convinced I can get away with pull-ups, deadlifts and climbing to build core strength.

If I were doing the climbing you are doing I might feel the same way. Nothing has put more strain on my core more than running 50k did so I need to do something as much as I hate doing it. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Jarric said:

I know what you mean about the volume on 531, it feels like too much weight and too little work for me somehow.

 

Some of the recent research suggests that as long you hit close to failure (either with low weights high reps, or high weight low reps), the hypertrophic effects are pretty damn similar.

 

There's a really cool new, smaller, study out that suggests that the same strength gains can be made with lower volume, but higher volume will increase hypertrophy.

 

An older study also suggests that moderate volume may be the sweet spot for strength gains.

 

Higher volume programmes require greater recovery to maintain performance though.

 

If you're worried about only working out twice a week, you could look at high frequency low volume training if you wanted to get in more workout without taxing your system. This is a great article discussing optimal frequency.

 

So it kinda depends - do you want strength, or hypertrophy? And how much recovery can you build into your programme?

 

As an aside, you may also want to add some fat bar/grip work into your stuff for the climbing, and maybe look at inverted rows on TRX/rings (sub in for the DB rows) for better transference. Also, just IMO, running 4x a week is going to scupper any recovery goals, you may want to drop it down to 2x instead.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, jonfirestar said:

 

Exactly, right? But I think I really should actually run it through for a cycle to actually figure out whether or not it's just my own prejudice speaking. With the amount of volume I have in my running it does make some sense to keep the lifting volume down a little. 

 

 

Single leg exercises, specifically. Including things like lunges and split squats, which are asymmetrical rather than single leg. They have the added benefit of helping with proprioception and balance as well as strengthen ankles. This stuff came highly recommended from my physio and I'm beginning to understand the benefits. 

 

If I were doing the climbing you are doing I might feel the same way. Nothing has put more strain on my core more than running 50k did so I need to do something as much as I hate doing it. 

 

That's a good point about the running volume - if you do go with 531 I'd be interested to know what gains you get and how that sits with your running. In my mind I was worried about going to such high percentages of 1RM with running fatigue, but reading some of the links in @Defining's post maybe I should be more concerned about volume than load.

 

Understood on the unilateral work, I'm hoping for similar effects with the lunges and SLDLs.

 

18 hours ago, Defining said:

 

Some of the recent research suggests that as long you hit close to failure (either with low weights high reps, or high weight low reps), the hypertrophic effects are pretty damn similar.

 

There's a really cool new, smaller, study out that suggests that the same strength gains can be made with lower volume, but higher volume will increase hypertrophy.

 

An older study also suggests that moderate volume may be the sweet spot for strength gains.

 

Higher volume programmes require greater recovery to maintain performance though.

 

If you're worried about only working out twice a week, you could look at high frequency low volume training if you wanted to get in more workout without taxing your system. This is a great article discussing optimal frequency.

 

So it kinda depends - do you want strength, or hypertrophy? And how much recovery can you build into your programme?

 

As an aside, you may also want to add some fat bar/grip work into your stuff for the climbing, and maybe look at inverted rows on TRX/rings (sub in for the DB rows) for better transference. Also, just IMO, running 4x a week is going to scupper any recovery goals, you may want to drop it down to 2x instead.

 

Wow, some really interesting information in there, thanks for that. Overall it makes me think that I should be training upper body more frequently at least, and I'm wondering if I can manage that with shorter pull-up bar workouts rather than more gym sessions.

 

In terms of what I want however strength is the main focus. Whilst it's good to look good, packing on more muscle is actually likely going to be less efficient for climbing and distance running.

 

With running I do take your point, and I certainly would get stronger quicker with less running. I find I feel best though when I train every day, and with most of what I'm lacking to compete in OCRs being running speed and endurance I feel I have to prioritise that training time into running. I do also feel that an office job in itself qualifies as (physical) recovery time!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Defining said:

As an aside, you may also want to add some fat bar/grip work into your stuff for the climbing, and maybe look at inverted rows on TRX/rings (sub in for the DB rows) for better transference.

 

Forgot to add when I typed this earlier - great idea. I'll sub in TRX rows instead of DB rows. Good idea on the grip strength too; can never have too much of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jarric said:

 

That's a good point about the running volume - if you do go with 531 I'd be interested to know what gains you get and how that sits with your running. In my mind I was worried about going to such high percentages of 1RM with running fatigue, but reading some of the links in @Defining's post maybe I should be more concerned about volume than load.

For my own part volume really does play into fatigue a lot more than load, I think but I've never done anything really heavy in that regards so it's hard to say for sure. I think I'm going to give it a go though. It's hard to fit in a plan around the races coming up before the end of the year but that's a puzzle I really need to sit down and solve. 531 goes up to 95% of the working max for 1 rep which should never feel like it's failure. 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2018 at 10:34 AM, jonfirestar said:

For my own part volume really does play into fatigue a lot more than load, I think but I've never done anything really heavy in that regards so it's hard to say for sure. I think I'm going to give it a go though. It's hard to fit in a plan around the races coming up before the end of the year but that's a puzzle I really need to sit down and solve. 531 goes up to 95% of the working max for 1 rep which should never feel like it's failure. 

 

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll see how I go for this cycle at least, but maybe I'd be better off going 531 instead of 853...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had day 2 of my draft plan today; OHP and deadlifts. for both I only got 3 reps in the final set instead of the 8+ I should be aiming for. I think it's still too early to tell whether that's down to me being rusty or the percentages being too high, but as I drop down to sets of 5 next week I'm hoping to actually hit the target reps!

 

Assistance wise I got in two sets of SLDLs and a set of lat pulldowns, and then I ran out of time. I did cut out some of the warm-up sets on the main lifts which helped with time, but I'm still going to struggle to fit this in. I did only get in there for 50 minutes rather than a full hour, but really I'd like to be able to get my workout in in that time.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jarric said:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll see how I go for this cycle at least, but maybe I'd be better off going 531 instead of 853...

 

I'm looking to start my first cycle  a week monday using 531 for the main movers on a two day a week pattern. I've not decided on my assistance work just yet other than I want to have 2 full body strength workouts and one of those days will involve some sprint intervals. I hope I'll be able to test for my current maxes next week but recovery may prevent that and I might have to fudge it from my last current numbers instead but I'll run it through to the end of the year and we can see whether or not there is any progress. I'm going to go with keeping the weights high because I think that'll sit effectively as a foil against my high volume running program. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2018 at 2:14 PM, jonfirestar said:

 

I'm looking to start my first cycle  a week monday using 531 for the main movers on a two day a week pattern. I've not decided on my assistance work just yet other than I want to have 2 full body strength workouts and one of those days will involve some sprint intervals. I hope I'll be able to test for my current maxes next week but recovery may prevent that and I might have to fudge it from my last current numbers instead but I'll run it through to the end of the year and we can see whether or not there is any progress. I'm going to go with keeping the weights high because I think that'll sit effectively as a foil against my high volume running program. 

 

Cool, well I'll follow your progress with interest then. My running volume is nowhere near yours though to be fair.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Started my second week of this programme yesterday, and it felt a lot more solid. Hit the required reps on the main lifts (although no bonus reps) and just barely had time for all the assistance work, which gave the following:

 

Bench: 20kg x 2 x 5, 30kg x 5, 42.5kg x 5, 50kg x 5, 55kg (~121#) x 5

Squat: 20kg x 2 x 5, 40kg x 5, 60kg x 5, 70kg x 5, 80kg (~176#) x 5

TRX row: Hip height x 5, waist height x 2 x 8 - I need to double check my technique on this I think

Reverse lunge: 14kg (~31#)/hand x 3 x 12 - Should have been 16kg/hand, but those dumbells were available at the time

 

So just about everything hit, and all in all it felt like a good workout. I have DOMS in my feet today from the lunges, which shows how rarely I do lunges, and my glutes were slightly tight on my run this morning, but otherwise I feel pretty good.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/8/2018 at 12:59 PM, Jarric said:

Cool, well I'll follow your progress with interest then. My running volume is nowhere near yours though to be fair.

Only one of us is crazy enough to think that running ultra marathons is a great idea ;) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, jonfirestar said:

Only one of us is crazy enough to think that running ultra marathons is a great idea ;) 

 

Hey, I like the idea of running ultra marathons! Just not as much as I hate the idea of training for ultra marathons :p 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jarric said:

Hey, I like the idea of running ultra marathons! Just not as much as I hate the idea of training for ultra marathons :p 

A 20 mile training run on the South Downs sounds like a lot of fun to me.... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2018 at 3:26 PM, jonfirestar said:

A 20 mile training run on the South Downs sounds like a lot of fun to me.... 

 

You know what, it actually does for some reason. Am I going mad? It would however entirely wipe out my Sunday by the time I'd sat down and attempted to recover!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ran day 2 of week 2 today, and it went pretty well:

OHP: 20kg x 2 x 5, 30kg x 5, 35kg x 5, 40kg (~88#) x 3 - Failed to hit the full 5 here, I'm wondering if these percentages are off or my max is just wrong. I know I can hit that weight for 5 reps, but not after the previous sets.

Deadlift - 60kg x 2 x 5, 80kg x 5, 90kg x 5, 100kg x 5, 115kg (~253#) x 6 - got a bonus rep and this is a rep PR for me, and I think equal to my weight PR.

SLDL - 6kg (~13#)/hand x 2 x 12

Lat pull - 85# (~37kg) x 2 x 12

 

I ran out of time at the end and only got 2 x 12 on the assistance rather than 3 x 12, but otherwise I'm really happy with how this went. Was there for a total of 54 minutes including warm-up before and stretching afterwards, so had I mad the full hour i should have just got the last sets in.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jarric said:

You know what, it actually does for some reason. Am I going mad? It would however entirely wipe out my Sunday by the time I'd sat down and attempted to recover!

You might be spending too much time talking to me and @Charlie_Quinn :lol: You do pretty much need to dedicate half a day to it when it happens and that's before you think about recovering but weirdly, by the time you get to those distances it's easier to recover from. At least that's what I found but my tactic for my Saturday super long runs was to come home, eat and then sleep for an hour or two. Then I was ready for the rest of Saturday! 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now