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Harriet

Harriet's Emergency Stopgap

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14 hours ago, Harriet said:

But how can it be hard enough for lifting and springy enough for running at the same time?

They aren't springy. 

 

After a long talk with Grumble and actually watching a running video he shared I realized I'm a midfoot planter...or strider...

8qGL.gif

no no no...not that strider!

 

or something...Essentially, with these shoes, you run flat foot, basically using your foots natural geometry (plus your knees) to absorb the shock of impact. It is actually quite comfortable...as far as running goes. Just don't heel strike (e.g. heel-to-toe run) in them as it will murder your feet!

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2 minutes ago, farflight said:

Just don't heel strike (e.g. heel-to-toe run) in them as it will murder your feet!

My feet cramped up reading that.

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3 minutes ago, Grumble said:

My feet cramped up reading that.

Yea...other benefit of running in those shoes: they make you pay the f attention when your running on pavement...acorns can hurt!

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10 hours ago, Blocky said:

 

 

 

It usually depends of personal anthropometry.

 

If you squat with knees pushing forwards over the toes, a narrower stance and a more upright torso, then lifting shoes will probably help. If you squat a bit wider, with a more vertical shin angle and a more foward torso position, then flatter shoes will probably be better.

 

There are outliers though and it's often a case of personal experimentation.

 

For instance:

 

I squat wide, with a vertical shin and flat shoes a great... however, if I want to front squat (which is nearly impossible with a wide stance), I have to bring my stance in and I use lifting shoes. However, I don't front squat very often and my lifting shoes get the most use for benching and overhead pressing.

 

Ah, okay. This is very informative. I will watch how I squat. I think I may be the latter kind. But I'm so uncertain about my form that I may try squatter with a narrower stance just to see if it helps. Uh, silly question, but does it even matter what shoes you use for bench and OHP?

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36 minutes ago, Grumble said:
 

The vapors are considered a barefoot shoe and have a minimal or zero drop, so there isn't much of a difference between lifting in these and lifting in socks. I like my cushioning in my running shoes so I could never use these, but I see the appeal for a one stop shoe. Also, until I bought my chucks (my first pair EVER) earlier this year, I only performed squats and deadlifts in socks. Probably still would, but losing enough weight to fit into chucks was something I couldn't pass up (I was a VANS kid growing up).

 

Gotcha, barefoot like those weird finger shoes. Actually that sounds amazing, having one shoe for everything. Barefoot deadlifts aren't allowed in my gym but minimal shoes of course would be. Huh, it would be really nice to be able to try squats and deadlifts barefoot, minimal and in squat shoes and compare. Oh, congrats on your new slender feet! 

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40 minutes ago, farflight said:

They aren't springy. 

 

After a long talk with Grumble and actually watching a running video he shared I realized I'm a midfoot planter...or strider...

8qGL.gif

no no no...not that strider!

 

or something...Essentially, with these shoes, you run flat foot, basically using your foots natural geometry (plus your knees) to absorb the shock of impact. It is actually quite comfortable...as far as running goes. Just don't heel strike (e.g. heel-to-toe run) in them as it will murder your feet!

 

I'm wasted on cross country: we dwarves are natural powerlifters! Very dangerous over short ranges of motion! 

But seriously, I imagine this works best if your foot actually has geometry, other than flat. Then again, reading about flat feet will give you two totally different opinions. Firstly, that you must have supports to add arch. Secondly, that supports will steal your arch. 

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39 minutes ago, farflight said:

Yea...other benefit of running in those shoes: they make you pay the f attention when your running on pavement...acorns can hurt!


Nature's lego.

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5 minutes ago, Harriet said:

Uh, silly question, but does it even matter what shoes you use for bench and OHP?

 

No.

But sometimes yes. 

But definitely no.

 

It matters when you compete as a lot of federations require flat feet and people use lifting shoes to manage that requirement and still give people that extra boost from being able to push their toes into the ground for extra leg drive.

 

4 minutes ago, Harriet said:

 

Gotcha, barefoot like those weird finger shoes. Actually that sounds amazing, having one shoe for everything. Barefoot deadlifts aren't allowed in my gym but minimal shoes of course would be. Huh, it would be really nice to be able to try squats and deadlifts barefoot, minimal and in squat shoes and compare. Oh, congrats on your new slender feet! 

Except these are regular shaped shoes. Also, unless you're at a crunch or planet fitness or one of those other bullshit gyms (sorry, if you kick people out the gym for "being too loud" you're not a gym, you're a library with treadmills (which is a whole other thing that I kind of want to see.)) I can't imagine anyone yelling at you for taking your shoes off for a single lift as long as you still have socks on.

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Oops. I was supposed to do a tiny habit to add to weekly. It turns out I did in fact do journalling every day, and I think this helped me get more reading and writing done. I'm not even sure if I ate the vitamin d every day. I'm putting it somewhere more visible and I'm going to try again. This week I'm going to add a second meditation session in the afternoons. I've noticed my procrastination and avoidance of good wholesome things like writing is somewhat based on anxiety, so it could help. BUT star shaped stick for me: I did writing every day for the last several days despite the profound, soul-eating fear of leaving the safety of computer procrastination to do something creative. 

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2 minutes ago, Grumble said:

 

No.

But sometimes yes. 

But definitely no.

 

It matters when you compete as a lot of federations require flat feet and people use lifting shoes to manage that requirement and still give people that extra boost from being able to push their toes into the ground for extra leg drive.

 

Except these are regular shaped shoes. Also, unless you're at a crunch or planet fitness or one of those other bullshit gyms (sorry, if you kick people out the gym for "being too loud" you're not a gym, you're a library with treadmills (which is a whole other thing that I kind of want to see.)) I can't imagine anyone yelling at you for taking your shoes off for a single lift as long as you still have socks on.


I'm not competing, except with myself and my former new-born-kitten level of strength. I didn't realise your heels were supposed to stay on the ground. Hmm. But I'm not competing so it doesn't matter for now.

Yeah, you know the worst thing that could happen is someone will ask me to put my shoes back on. I doubt they'd kick me out. I should try this.

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16 minutes ago, Harriet said:

But seriously, I imagine this works best if your foot actually has geometry, other than flat. Then again, reading about flat feet will give you two totally different opinions. Firstly, that you must have supports to add arch. Secondly, that supports will steal your arch. 

I actually have fairly flat feet...at least in my opinion. I'll post a foot pic later...at a school right now and will be rest of the day

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3 minutes ago, farflight said:

I actually have fairly flat feet...at least in my opinion. I'll post a foot pic later...at a school right now and will be rest of the day

Tangentially relevant

Related image

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17 hours ago, Harriet said:


Thank you for the baby racoon. I saw a racoon for the first time a couple of nights ago. I thought they were about the size of cats but they're big! Kinda cute though. But not cute enough to let my husband (who has never seen a raccoon, and who misses our cats) open the door and say hello.


Almost certainly for the best. I have known people (not sane people, Marines, but still sort of people) who have raised raccoons from kits and it's been okay, but in general they are pretty mean and can hurt you bad if you try to play with them. They are definitely in the "don't mess with me and I won't rip your face off" category of cute. 




 

3 hours ago, farflight said:

 

or something...Essentially, with these shoes, you run flat foot, basically using your foots natural geometry (plus your knees) to absorb the shock of impact. It is actually quite comfortable...as far as running goes. Just don't heel strike (e.g. heel-to-toe run) in them as it will murder your feet!

 

2 hours ago, Grumble said:

Except these are regular shaped shoes. Also, unless you're at a crunch or planet fitness or one of those other bullshit gyms (sorry, if you kick people out the gym for "being too loud" you're not a gym, you're a library with treadmills (which is a whole other thing that I kind of want to see.)) I can't imagine anyone yelling at you for taking your shoes off for a single lift as long as you still have socks on.


Yes! 
 

2 hours ago, Harriet said:


I'm not competing, except with myself and my former new-born-kitten level of strength. I didn't realise your heels were supposed to stay on the ground. Hmm. But I'm not competing so it doesn't matter for now.

Yeah, you know the worst thing that could happen is someone will ask me to put my shoes back on. I doubt they'd kick me out. I should try this.

 

 

I'm not going to quote all the relevant bits of the shoe convo, but here is my personal experience. YMMV especially since you have flatish feet; I have a ludicrously high arch. 

 

- when I first started lifting I did it in super squishy running shoes, which I had purchased during one of my mad "no, I really want to convince myself that I like to run" fits. That was fine for a while, but as soon as things started to feel at all heavy I might as well have been trying to move furniture while standing on a trampoline. Very unstable.

 

- I switched to Vibrams (yes, the funny toe shoes - I like 'em.) Massive, massive improvement. Suddenly I felt so very non-wobbly. I have a non-library, non-purple gym that will not allow barefoot or sockfooted lifting ... but that may jut be because it is a military base gym. I don't know if my Starting Strength gym would have allowed barefooting, I never saw anyone do it and I never asked. 

 

I also, like @farflight explained, prefer minimalist shoes for running - when I do run. Something about squishy padded running shoes makes me come down too hard with every stride, so after even a half mile or so my knees hate me. In minimalist shoes I have to run "softer" - which means my limiting factors are my lungs and my "IhatethisIhatethisIhatethis" imp in my brain, my knees and hips are fine. Again, though, I think that is a function of my personal anthropometry, because a lot of people, e.g. Grumble, do much better in the super padded shoes. 

- When I could not for the life of me get my squats to depth without my heels coming up off the ground, I bought lifting shoes and the difference (for me!) was astounding.  So I probably did have an ankle mobility limitation. I went with the Inov-8 Fastlift 325, and I love love love them. They also made my OHP feel even more stable, not sure why. When I was working with a Starting Strength coach, she very much wanted me to keep my heels on the ground for bench, so they helped with that too. 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Harriet said:


But how can it be hard enough for lifting and springy enough for running at the same time?

 

12 hours ago, Blocky said:

 

 

 

It usually depends of personal anthropometry.

 

If you squat with knees pushing forwards over the toes, a narrower stance and a more upright torso, then lifting shoes will probably help. If you squat a bit wider, with a more vertical shin angle and a more foward torso position, then flatter shoes will probably be better.

 

There are outliers though and it's often a case of personal experimentation.

 

For instance:

 

I squat wide, with a vertical shin and flat shoes a great... however, if I want to front squat (which is nearly impossible with a wide stance), I have to bring my stance in and I use lifting shoes. However, I don't front squat very often and my lifting shoes get the most use for benching and overhead pressing.

 

 

a few notes to touch on the YMMV theme:

 

i am more comfortable running/jogging in barefoot shoes. i believe it is because my stride hits the ball of my foot first.

 

i cannot get below parallel in a squat without a super wide stance or a counter weight (goblet squats). and my torso goes forward a lot. my ankle mobility is very poor and/or my physiology doesn't allow it. it is much easier for me to squat in heeled shoes. so what grumble says above definitely does not apply to me.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/J5DCrcFor6xmyKgaA not sure if you'll be able to see this but this if from Feb 2017 i think it's the latest vid i have of me squatting.

 

you could try "heels" out by putting plates under your heels when you're in chucks.

 

i also front squat with a very wide stance soooo we all different.

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1 hour ago, Gemma said:


Almost certainly for the best. I have known people (not sane people, Marines, but still sort of people) who have raised raccoons from kits and it's been okay, but in general they are pretty mean and can hurt you bad if you try to play with them. They are definitely in the "don't mess with me and I won't rip your face off" category of cute. 

 

 

Oh, fork, I didn't know that. I just thought it might raid our garbage. 

1 hour ago, Gemma said:

 

I'm not going to quote all the relevant bits of the shoe convo, but here is my personal experience. YMMV especially since you have flatish feet; I have a ludicrously high arch. 

 

- when I first started lifting I did it in super squishy running shoes, which I had purchased during one of my mad "no, I really want to convince myself that I like to run" fits. That was fine for a while, but as soon as things started to feel at all heavy I might as well have been trying to move furniture while standing on a trampoline. Very unstable.

 

- I switched to Vibrams (yes, the funny toe shoes - I like 'em.) Massive, massive improvement. Suddenly I felt so very non-wobbly. I have a non-library, non-purple gym that will not allow barefoot or sockfooted lifting ... but that may jut be because it is a military base gym. I don't know if my Starting Strength gym would have allowed barefooting, I never saw anyone do it and I never asked. 

 

I also, like @farflight explained, prefer minimalist shoes for running - when I do run. Something about squishy padded running shoes makes me come down too hard with every stride, so after even a half mile or so my knees hate me. In minimalist shoes I have to run "softer" - which means my limiting factors are my lungs and my "IhatethisIhatethisIhatethis" imp in my brain, my knees and hips are fine. Again, though, I think that is a function of my personal anthropometry, because a lot of people, e.g. Grumble, do much better in the super padded shoes. 

- When I could not for the life of me get my squats to depth without my heels coming up off the ground, I bought lifting shoes and the difference (for me!) was astounding.  So I probably did have an ankle mobility limitation. I went with the Inov-8 Fastlift 325, and I love love love them. They also made my OHP feel even more stable, not sure why. When I was working with a Starting Strength coach, she very much wanted me to keep my heels on the ground for bench, so they helped with that too. 

 


This is super helpful, thank you. I'm going to drop the weight a little, try out different stances, see if I can get my form really nice and consistent and comfortable. Then I should have a better idea whether flat or heeled shoes are better for me.

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1 hour ago, CourtnieMarie said:

 

i cannot get below parallel in a squat without a super wide stance or a counter weight (goblet squats). and my torso goes forward a lot. my ankle mobility is very poor and/or my physiology doesn't allow it. it is much easier for me to squat in heeled shoes. so what grumble says above definitely does not apply to me.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/J5DCrcFor6xmyKgaA not sure if you'll be able to see this but this if from Feb 2017 i think it's the latest vid i have of me squatting.

 

you could try "heels" out by putting plates under your heels when you're in chucks.

 

i also front squat with a very wide stance soooo we all different.

 

From the vid your squat looks very different to mine -- more upright. But filming things is not allowed in my gym, and unlike the socks it's the kind of thing one could get kicked out for. I can go plenty deep, but my knees want to come in. Putting plates under my feet is a brilliant idea, and I will certainly try it. Thank you!

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15 minutes ago, Harriet said:

But filming things is not allowed in my gym,

I know its probably bad form to sit there and record other folks, but when I've recorded in the past, I just put my phone on a chair, hit the button and went on with life, didn't make a big deal about it. No one ever gave me a second look

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1 hour ago, JustCallMeAmber said:

Wait, wait, wait, why didn't you tell us of this prestigious milestone? I would've gotten you a card or something..

giphy.gif

 

 

I think I did. Shows how much you pay attention. Although, if you can find those shoes for me all will be forgiven forever.

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44 minutes ago, farflight said:

I know its probably bad form to sit there and record other folks, but when I've recorded in the past, I just put my phone on a chair, hit the button and went on with life, didn't make a big deal about it. No one ever gave me a second look

 Surreptitious filming might be possible if I had something to put the phone on. Or maybe I could even just flat out ask the staff. They seem cool. But I actually am planning to hire a personal trainer. They have a deal for three introductory sessions and they have a powerlifter. They have a powerlifter! I'm going to ask her to check my form. 

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So I'm doing total rep goals for my heavy lifts. 15 reps in 3 sets means I move up to heavier weights. My last deadlift breakthrough was 150 pounds, but I only got 11 reps in 5 sets (4-4-1-1-1). 

 

Today I got no less than 7-5-4. YARSH!!! I attribute this glory to four things.

One, I used liquid chalk for the first time and it made me feel like a god instead of a trembling mortal. An uncertain grip makes me feel weak all over.

Two, I have been practicing ignoring the fearful voice that says "that's too heavy". I let myself try lifts I thought I would fail. Some I failed, at it wasn't the end of the world. Some I succeeded at. So now when I hear myself think "that's too heavy" I sort of mentally shrug and think "it'll come up or it won't. the attempt must still be made".

Three, similarly, I have been focusing on set up so it's the same every time. I don't pull when I feel ready, I pull after breathing in. And I breathe when my chest is out. And my chest goes out after my hips are in place. And so on. 


Four, I have been doing light paused deadlifts and medium weight deadlifts which seem to have stealthily made me stronger at the heavies. 

 

After about 6 months of almost no net progress, I feel hopeful about future gains. 

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6 hours ago, Harriet said:

So now when I hear myself think "that's too heavy" I sort of mentally shrug and think "it'll come up or it won't. the attempt must still be made".

 

I love your attitude on this. It'll happen or it won't; I'm ready or I'm not. But it's still always worth a shot.

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