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KB Girl

KB Girl and the fight for women's rights

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21 minutes ago, KB Girl said:

Hm interesting! Does any climbing discipline exceed 4-6 minutes? Bouldering (the only kind of climbing I'm familiar with) is mostly 3 with a good bit of 2 on the competitive level because of the time limit forcing you to recover asap between attempts. 

Absolutely. Rope climbing in competition used to be 8 minutes but got brought down to 6 in the last years, but that’s still very, very quick climbing on short walls. If you’re outside you can spend a lot longer on the wall. I don’t do rope climbing so I can’t tell what a “typical” route is, but at the very extreme end you have big wall climbing which takes many hours. There’s also trad climbing where you place all the safety gear yourself which makes it slow going. How long sections you climb consecutively at a time depends a lot on the route, and where the rest positions are. I think that’s something that makes rope climbing quite interesting too because in most sports you don’t get to rest. Though rest is highly relative, you’re still (almost always) gripping the wall and engaging the body, it’s just relatively easier and you’re able to hang with straight arms and shake out one forearm at a time. So it’s not resting but it does give climbers a chance to recover a little bit. So even between different rope climbs it can vary quite a lot whether it’s slow and steady the whole way up, or more powerful bouldery sections with relatively good tests in between. For the Olympic format there’s now also speed climbing which is 5-10s sprints up a 15 or so meter wall. It must be extremely hard to train the athletes for all three events!

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For me the bottom of the pull up was the hardest before l earned, but now that I haven’t been climbing, i.e. not doing lock offs, it’s become the top! 

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10 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

I don’t do rope climbing so I can’t tell what a “typical” route is, but at the very extreme end you have big wall climbing which takes many hours.

I don't climb outdoors, but indoors it's very rare to see climbers actively climbing for more than 5-10 minutes, and that is already including rests. No way that someone is staying in the same route for more than half an hour (indoors), the wall is just not tall enough. Even then, it would be kinda boring for both you and your belayer to climb an easy route for so long. If you want to do that, then the stairs are over there :P. Outside is probably different, but I still would expect people to rest regularly in a way that doesn't load the forearms.

 

All in all I think that climbing for us normal people is more about fast recovery and strength than low intensity endurance; at the same time, I rarely get out of breath, so I don't know how that fits into the energy model.

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43 minutes ago, Waanie said:

Even then, it would be kinda boring for both you and your belayer to climb an easy route for so long. If you want to do that, then the stairs are over there :P

That's why I don't like rope climbing. :P Well that and the pump. :lol:

 

44 minutes ago, Waanie said:

Outside is probably different, but I still would expect people to rest regularly in a way that doesn't load the forearms.

I think it really depends on what type of climbing you do, but I think you're right in that routes are fairly short, I suspect simply because of logistics! But even then I know climbers prepare for them through slow and steady training, doing routes multiple times or circuits where they're spending 20-30 minutes on the wall. 

How much you rest outdoors I think will be dictated by the routes, you can't manufacture a rest on rock. :) But resting is really a relative concept here, sometimes you don't get any good rests and can only stop for a few seconds to shake out, sometimes you get a jug and can hang for a few minutes, but either way you're still hanging and loading the forearms. Just a lot less and in a different way. Unless you get a good knee bar in. And the rest of the body still has to work to some degree. I know that you know this, I'm just writing it out in case people are reading this and think that rest means sofa rest. :D Rather it's something calculated and taken into account when training for climbing.

 

Completely agree that for normal people it doesn't matter, it's only when you get up to very high levels or compete and time/recovery becomes more precious! I just find the complexity interesting.

I think getting out of breath depends a lot on how you climb too. If you climb very fast you might get out of breath, or I can even get out of breath on super burly problems like when wrestling with volumes. :) 

But in general, energy models in climbing I think have more to do with forearms than full body if that makes sense. They're by far the limiting factor for most people, and because they're so small they won't affect the rest of the body very much in terms of heart rate etc.

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20 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

But in general, energy models in climbing I think have more to do with forearms than full body if that makes sense. They're by far the limiting factor for most people, and because they're so small they won't affect the rest of the body very much in terms of heart rate etc.

This makes sense. While technique can help you to make it easier on your fingers and forearms, that usually is a good moment to go for a harder grade as well. I'm one of the few climbers I know who actually has tired legs and shoulders by the end of a climbing session, and that's mostly because I currently want to improve on long routes with overhang, which consequently have more jugs than vertical routes. I still get the pump, but also manage to do most work with my legs. I'm often jealous of the men who improve their leg strength so rapidly that they never feel their legs ;).

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14 minutes ago, Waanie said:

I'm often jealous of the men who improve their leg strength so rapidly that they never feel their legs ;).

And shoulder strength... And forearm strength... And everything strength... Not fair. :P 

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I think the top is usually harder! But maybe my pull-ups are always starting wrong from the bottom. :P 

 

Interesting practical take on energy systems! I feel like it'd be neat to be an intern at your gym! :D 

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For me the hardest part of the pull up is right after getting the shoulders packed (I am not exactly sure what muscles are involved here but it feels like the point where I transfer power from my traps to my lats).

 

I find this especially true when doing wide-arm. 

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On 9/14/2019 at 10:21 PM, Waanie said:

For me, it's the transition from a deadhang to an active hang. I somehow can't manage to get a (micro-)bend in my arms at the same time. If I start from an active hang, a pull-up is no problem at all anymore. It might have something to do with me being a climber though, so my lats are developed more strongly than the average person.

 

That workout today sounds like a lot of fun :). What part of the pull-up is your main weakness? Do you also see a significant difference between rings and a bar for pull-ups?

Yes that's exactly the problem I mostly see with new people on their way to a pull-up! I am also the same. I haven't really tried a bar pull-up in ages, it just has become sort of default to go to the rings.. 

 

On 9/14/2019 at 10:33 PM, Mad Hatter said:

Absolutely. Rope climbing in competition used to be 8 minutes but got brought down to 6 in the last years, but that’s still very, very quick climbing on short walls. If you’re outside you can spend a lot longer on the wall. I don’t do rope climbing so I can’t tell what a “typical” route is, but at the very extreme end you have big wall climbing which takes many hours. There’s also trad climbing where you place all the safety gear yourself which makes it slow going. How long sections you climb consecutively at a time depends a lot on the route, and where the rest positions are. I think that’s something that makes rope climbing quite interesting too because in most sports you don’t get to rest. Though rest is highly relative, you’re still (almost always) gripping the wall and engaging the body, it’s just relatively easier and you’re able to hang with straight arms and shake out one forearm at a time. So it’s not resting but it does give climbers a chance to recover a little bit. So even between different rope climbs it can vary quite a lot whether it’s slow and steady the whole way up, or more powerful bouldery sections with relatively good tests in between. For the Olympic format there’s now also speed climbing which is 5-10s sprints up a 15 or so meter wall. It must be extremely hard to train the athletes for all three events!

Extremely hard, if not impossible! Are there any athletes who are good at all three? 

Though I would say from what you've mentioned in this post and others that it's still mainly fast recovery and strength/explosiveness for climbers, with very little LISS. Though it would still be beneficial to have a bit of it in training, on rest days for example. 

 

On 9/15/2019 at 8:55 AM, Mad Hatter said:

Oh it depends on the grip too for me, on rings the top position is fine, and the bottom is harder, particularly when stringing pull ups together.

Ah I hadn't thought of that, we tend to use rings for everything.

 

On 9/16/2019 at 3:49 PM, Machete said:

Image result for gif following

*following

Slightly creepy, but hi! :D 

 

On 9/16/2019 at 5:29 PM, raptron said:

I think the top is usually harder! But maybe my pull-ups are always starting wrong from the bottom. :P 

 

Interesting practical take on energy systems! I feel like it'd be neat to be an intern at your gym! :D 

Ehm yea I'm inclined to think you start them just fine! :P

Do you do pull-ups on bar or on rings? 

 

I really hope they do enjoy being interns at our gym. Two of them came to us because Jaap taught a guest class at their school last year, about doing intakes and assessing athletes. So they did know what they were getting into! 

 

On 9/17/2019 at 7:16 AM, WhiteGhost said:

For me the hardest part of the pull up is right after getting the shoulders packed (I am not exactly sure what muscles are involved here but it feels like the point where I transfer power from my traps to my lats).

 

I find this especially true when doing wide-arm. 

Yea, packing shoulders and then having to initiate, that's what I see mostly. And you do bar pull-ups right? That's why I thought some might find the top harder, because they don't actually pack their shoulders before initiating. But I'd need a larger sample size ;):D

 

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Sunday

Emma and I left in the morning and didn't get home until her bed time. We went to work first (normally she stays with Jaap but he was away for the weekend), then we went shopping and then we took the food to a friends house where all the moms whose significant others were away gathered to cook and let the kids play together :P It was nice really. 

Unfortunately no outside or cleaning time, but I did take a lot of leftovers home so at least there is that.

I also got in a workout; 5x4 back squat with 55kg and a tabata of kettlebell snatches with 12kg. 

 

Monday

Spend the morning cleaning up the house. Or well to be honest doing the minimum to make it liveable again. We did some shopping, took a walk with the dog and I made tortilla warps for dinner, with chicken, corn, chickpeas and lots of veggies. That was it, I had a bit of a rough day to be honest. Dark mood.

Oh and I also finished registering our team for Europeans, it's small (4+me) because not many want to go to Ukraine right now. 

 

Tuesday

Some sleep made everything better, so I went to work in the morning and I took an extra long lunch break to shop for clothes that will work with the new growth in the mid section :P In the evening I had back to back appointments for 4 hours, which is honestly a little too intense right now. Food was leftover tortilla wraps and because of the challenge I cleaned the kitchen before crashing hard. 

 

Writing hasn't really happened.. I feel like I should get in the habit of it somehow, that it doesn't really matter what about just yet.. but I'm still held back by perfectionism or.. well who knows? Suggestions for how to tackle this would be very welcome. 

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17 minutes ago, KB Girl said:

Writing hasn't really happened.. I feel like I should get in the habit of it somehow, that it doesn't really matter what about just yet.. but I'm still held back by perfectionism or.. well who knows? Suggestions for how to tackle this would be very welcome. 

Sounds like you had a very busy weekend/start of the week. Looking back at those days, when would you like to have written? Why didn't you? If you can use that as a template, then you might also recognise the same reasoning in the next few days and start writing anyway ;).

 

Those tortilla wraps sound very tasty :).

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2 hours ago, Waanie said:

Sounds like you had a very busy weekend/start of the week. Looking back at those days, when would you like to have written? Why didn't you? If you can use that as a template, then you might also recognise the same reasoning in the next few days and start writing anyway ;).

That is true, I was rather busy.. but I did find time for watching several youtube videos, mostly after putting Emma in bed. I could argue I'm just too tired by that point, but accepting that would mean giving up on this goal, because that's usually my only free time. 

I think it might be that I have trouble deciding what to write. Not that I don't have enough ideas/topics, but if I haven't worked it out in my head in it's entirety beforehand I have a hard time starting. 

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On 9/14/2019 at 2:06 PM, KB Girl said:

I had an interesting discussion today about what the hardest part of a pull-up is, the bottom or the top. I think bottom because that's simply where I see most people struggling. He said top, but I think that's only if you didn't initiate right from the bottom.. what do you guys think?

 

 

Bottom. Def the bottom. But this is said by someone with a left shoulder tear. I'm still trying to put my pull-ups back together post-baby. THe muscles around my ribs have some contracting to do and crotchety left shoulder got lazy the last couple months and the couple months after LR showed up.

 

On 9/14/2019 at 2:21 PM, Waanie said:

For me, it's the transition from a deadhang to an active hang.

This. As a climber also, I am rarely deadhanging. If I have tension in my body and my toes are on something, I can do all sorts of pull-up-ish stuff.

 

Congrats by the way! I missed this as well. I'm totally here for all the pregnant workout challenges. How far along are you?

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On 9/14/2019 at 2:33 PM, Mad Hatter said:

Hm interesting! Does any climbing discipline exceed 4-6 minutes? Bouldering (the only kind of climbing I'm familiar with) is mostly 3 with a good bit of 2 on the competitive level because of the time limit forcing you to recover asap between attempts. 

 

Oh man. I could write a book. But basically:

A pitch is a climb's length between anchors or belays. Typically 50-150 feet. A climb may be a single pitch (see desert crack climbs) or big walls (see desert crack climbs in Zion). The longest climb I've ever done was an aid route in Zion called "Lunar Ecstasy." Clocking in around 1200', we spent 2.5 doing it. Obviously there was some sleeping. The longest continuous active stretch for us was 15 hours.

 

Climbing isn't just forearms. It's back, legs everything. The shape of the rock determines how might your fingers need to be more than anything else. But in all kinds of rock, your core and back are doing a huge amount of the work every second that you're up there. I can get into further nerdery if people like. I climb outside, mostly trad. I learned to aid climb and did a big wall last year. Right now I'm bouldering a lot because it's a very baby-friendly activity. All versions require different strengths, but you can build a good foundation for all three and then you'll just end up specializing a bit one way or another depending on what you're spending the most time on.

 

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12 hours ago, KB Girl said:

I think it might be that I have trouble deciding what to write. Not that I don't have enough ideas/topics, but if I haven't worked it out in my head in it's entirety beforehand I have a hard time starting. 

Could you take one of the ideas and just write down a section? Or if you're not clear on that only do the structuring parts so that you know which section to write beforehand? Or perhaps you could take a few minutes writing anything that comes to mind before tackling the "real" topic as a warm up? Is there a specific mood that you enjoy writing in and can you recreate it?

 

15 hours ago, KB Girl said:

Extremely hard, if not impossible! Are there any athletes who are good at all three? 

 Though I would say from what you've mentioned in this post and others that it's still mainly fast recovery and strength/explosiveness for climbers, with very little LISS.

Good yes, of course. :) Like really elite world cup finals level no. There are a few men that are competitive in bouldering and speed, and quite a few climbers that are very good at bouldering and lead where the style of climbing is becoming more similar. Speed climbing is kinda weird though (and extremely boring to me personally), and there's not really any good boulderers or lead climbers in the countries where it's popular. And by good I again mean elite here, they'll probably still crush at any regular gym. But they're an order of magnitude worse than the other competitors.

I'd agree, except maybe if you're a big wall or climber climber.

 

9 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

A pitch is a climb's length between anchors or belays. Typically 50-150 feet. A climb may be a single pitch (see desert crack climbs) or big walls (see desert crack climbs in Zion). The longest climb I've ever done was an aid route in Zion called "Lunar Ecstasy." Clocking in around 1200', we spent 2.5 doing it. Obviously there was some sleeping. The longest continuous active stretch for us was 15 hours.

Cool! :D 

 

9 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

Climbing isn't just forearms. It's back, legs everything.

Absolutely, I only said the thing about forearms because it is often the limiting factor for at least regular sport climbing. In the way that there's a high correlation between difficulty and finger strength, which you don't see with for example leg strength and difficulty. But of course you need to use it all, and with the right technique to be able to max out.

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10 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

A pitch is a climb's length between anchors or belays. Typically 50-150 feet. A climb may be a single pitch (see desert crack climbs) or big walls (see desert crack climbs in Zion). The longest climb I've ever done was an aid route in Zion called "Lunar Ecstasy." Clocking in around 1200', we spent 2.5 doing it. Obviously there was some sleeping. The longest continuous active stretch for us was 15 hours.

Cool! I've never climbed outside, but even on the easiest holds 1200' sounds like a lot, especially if you climb trad :).

 

49 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Absolutely, I only said the thing about forearms because it is often the limiting factor for at least regular sport climbing. In the way that there's a high correlation between difficulty and finger strength, which you don't see with for example leg strength and difficulty. But of course you need to use it all, and with the right technique to be able to max out.

I think this is mostly about how routes are set, and the easiest way to make a route more difficult is obviously to make the holds worse. Leg strength is also more difficult to set for if you have a wide range of lengths of people to work with. As a short person, I have to use high feet all the time, so leg strength is more important for me. The average dutch man is almost a foot taller, so what's almost hip-height for me is more at knee-height for them. This is a huge difference in strength, and why I'm often complaining about my legs not being strong enough opposed to my fingers not being strong enough :P

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11 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

Congrats by the way! I missed this as well. I'm totally here for all the pregnant workout challenges. How far along are you?

Thank you! 15 weeks now. My main challenge is managing pelvic girdle pain, I'm carefully optimistic so far :)

 

11 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

The longest climb I've ever done was an aid route in Zion called "Lunar Ecstasy." Clocking in around 1200', we spent 2.5 doing it. Obviously there was some sleeping. The longest continuous active stretch for us was 15 hours.

Geez.. That's intense! And interesting!

I'm still going to guess it's mostly 2 and 3... but that's because I'm assuming that you get a lot of short recovery moments in 15 hours and that your heart rate isn't continuously high. Did you ever wear a heart rate monitor? 

 

2 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Could you take one of the ideas and just write down a section? Or if you're not clear on that only do the structuring parts so that you know which section to write beforehand? Or perhaps you could take a few minutes writing anything that comes to mind before tackling the "real" topic as a warm up? Is there a specific mood that you enjoy writing in and can you recreate it?

Well the only times I really write are when I'm forced to by a deadline.. I think the feeling of it being work, or always having some end goal in mind is putting me off.. or increasing the pressure too much to enjoy it and therefore want to do it in my free time. 

I read this last night; https://writingcooperative.com/how-to-just-write-c1e613f48171

and it really made sense to me! I think to practice writing and get into the habit of it, it'd be good to take away all pressure and purpose until I feel like adding that back in. 

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6 hours ago, KB Girl said:

Did you ever wear a heart rate monitor? 

 

Nope. So in the 15 hours, you get rests while you're belaying. However, the stance for a belay can be anything from a big comfy ledge (rarely on this particular route), to a hanging belay where you're basically sitting on a bit of plywood with your knees against the rock. This gets really tiring all on its own, and then there's the rope management not just of your partner's lead line, but also of the tag line hanging from his harness that's attached to the haul bag docked next to you - the haul bag is a 100-180 lb monstrosity that holds everything you need, including your water for the whole trip. So your heartrate while you're belaying is low, but your body isn't really "resting."

 

lunarx.thumb.jpg.1d8fed7032e9139ff8c344669bea3e98.jpg

This is an image of a pair on Lunar Ecstasy. The top guy is belay his follower up from a hanging belay. They are free climbing it. Lunar X has some bolts every now and then, but is mostly a trad/aid route. If the follower was aiding, the leader would have fixed the rope and would be attending to the haul bag (on its own line) while the follower jugged the lead rope, cleaning gear as he went.

 

As for the ease of climbing - there aren't a lot of big wall climbers in the climbing world. And then the subset of them that can free [trad] climb (rather than aid climb) the whole wall is vanishingly small, so big wall climbing is a combination of aid and free [trad] climbing for most people. Aid is slow. Following aid is done by jugging with ascenders similar to what an arborist might use. Since I had only been climbing for about 2 years when we went to do our first wall, I followed the whole thing except the last pitch. My lead on the first 100' or so of the last pitch was a mixture of free and aid. The amusing thing about free-ing a big wall - if you're carrying an aid rack, you've got like 20-25lbs of metal and nylon hanging off of you. So needless to say you aren't climbing as hard as you would unencumbered.

 

https://rockandice.com/how-to-climb/types-of-climbing/

 

I agree - speed climbing is weird. There is only one route. The only way to train for speed climbing is to find a gym with that route and climb it over and over.

 

 

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On 9/18/2019 at 10:06 AM, KB Girl said:

Do you do pull-ups on bar or on rings?

Usually on a bar. 

On 9/18/2019 at 10:29 AM, KB Girl said:

Sunday

Emma and I left in the morning and didn't get home until her bed time. We went to work first (normally she stays with Jaap but he was away for the weekend), then we went shopping and then we took the food to a friends house where all the moms whose significant others were away gathered to cook and let the kids play together :P It was nice really. 

Aww, playdate! :)

On 9/18/2019 at 10:29 AM, KB Girl said:

Writing hasn't really happened.. I feel like I should get in the habit of it somehow, that it doesn't really matter what about just yet.. but I'm still held back by perfectionism or.. well who knows? Suggestions for how to tackle this would be very welcome. 

Proooobably perfectionism. I find it useful to set a timer for it when I actually sit down to start at it and just try to write without editing myself too much.

19 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

A climb may be a single pitch (see desert crack climbs) or big walls (see desert crack climbs in Zion). The longest climb I've ever done was an aid route in Zion called "Lunar Ecstasy." Clocking in around 1200', we spent 2.5 doing it. Obviously there was some sleeping. The longest continuous active stretch for us was 15 hours.

SO COOL. :O 

 

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17 hours ago, DaemonCorax said:

speed climbing is weird

Very weird! I had no idea climbing would be in the olympics, very nice.

It would be interesting to train an athlete for big wall climbs. A lot more complex than bouldering for sure. 

 

17 hours ago, raptron said:

Proooobably perfectionism. I find it useful to set a timer for it when I actually sit down to start at it and just try to write without editing myself too much.

Yea that sounds good, thanks :) 

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