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Mad Hatter

Mad Hatter flips and glides into the new year

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9 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

I liked what he said about envisioning the line a lot. I haven't practiced it much yet, but when I try for bold, fluid lines they typically end up all over the place, my control is not very good yet. And there's a big different between exaggeration and looseness, and just fucking up. I do the latter. :P For the few strokes that I've tried to plan in advance it's been very helpful, but it's also slower. 

 

Me too! I really wanted to try it, and when I did, it helped. Because I go for looseness/boldness, and sometimes I TOTALLY over- or under-shoot (I'm like, WTF, hand? Help me out here!) and I really think seeing it first in my mind will help. But yeah, I'm also always running out of time.

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I watched Amanda Palmer's talk a while ago, I don't remember all of it but I remember I very much enjoyed it. I haven't read the book, I will look into it! Not long ago I saw an artist in the street doing the status thing and I thought of her because for a few seconds we made a connection, the sort of connection she was talking about. At least in my head, it felt that way. When I was about to leave, he said thank you which actually startled me because I wasn't expecting him to talk :D

But anyway, there is this confusion about asking somehow, I'm not sure why it somehow tend to be seen as begging.

I also read or heard somewhere but I can't remember where/who it was 🤔 that people build stronger attachments in moments of hardship rather than joy or comfort. Maybe it's obvious but I hadn't really thought about it. And it's a pity that in more serene moments, we are not able to share as much that "something" that comes out raw in more difficult moments.

 

 

15 hours ago, Tobbe said:

And she’s right. I’ve traveled to nearly 30 countries and still, every time I travel and see straight men walking arms linked, or straight women holding hands, I surprise myself with how much this still surprises me.

 

To be fair, that cultural specificity may also hide very ugly assumptions. Eg in Iran, you will see men hold hands and hug each other. There is absolutely no assumption whatsoever that there are gay. Because that would be an insult / unimaginable.... (caveat: I'm not saying all Iranians are anti-LGBT, the law is for sure, and minds are opening up, but it's still widely seen as "unnatural" if not "a little bit diseased" for those who are not struggling in that community). I say Iran because it's my most recent xp but you could feel something similar in areas of southern Europe in the 90s. And now that I'm back in that area, it looks to me that men are touching a bit less than they used to. Is it better / is it worse? it looks to me there are unfortunately some ugly spiders holding on either way.

 

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2 hours ago, @mu said:

To be fair, that cultural specificity may also hide very ugly assumptions. Eg in Iran, you will see men hold hands and hug each other. There is absolutely no assumption whatsoever that there are gay. Because that would be an insult / unimaginable.... (caveat: I'm not saying all Iranians are anti-LGBT, the law is for sure, and minds are opening up, but it's still widely seen as "unnatural" if not "a little bit diseased" for those who are not struggling in that community). I say Iran because it's my most recent xp but you could feel something similar in areas of southern Europe in the 90s. And now that I'm back in that area, it looks to me that men are touching a bit less than they used to. Is it better / is it worse? it looks to me there are unfortunately some ugly spiders holding on either way.

 

Wait, what?! Are you saying it's safer for gay men to hold hands because it's against the law, so no one assumes they're actually gay, than it is in places where it's actually legal? I mean, it makes a twisted kind of sense now that you say it. But I would never have thought of it like that

 

jon stewart mind blown GIF

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3 minutes ago, Tobbe said:

 

Wait, what?! Are you saying it's safer for gay men to hold hands because it's against the law, so no one assumes they're actually gay, than it is in places where it's actually legal? I mean, it makes a twisted kind of sense now that you say it. But I would never have thought of it like that

 

jon stewart mind blown GIF

 

yes that's it. I wouldn't say just because it's against the law, the general collective bias on the question is also important. Heterosexuality is assumed.

It's true it's twisted...

Heterosexual hand holding will be watched out a bit more actually. Because in sharia law, it's not appropriate for a man to touch a woman he is not related to (family, marriage). In daily life, fortunately it's not that strict.  But for the sake of annoyance, morale police could come and ask if you are married or what is your relationship, especially with younger people which they like to annoy the most. It's rather rare these days especially in Tehran but it happens sometimes. Or if you book a room in a hotel as a heterosexual couple, every so often they ask you to show that you're married otherwise they don't give you the room. If you are Iranian. If you are a tourist couple, especially westerners, that does not apply to you.

But there is nothing in the law against same sex holding hands. It is actually safer (to some point) for gay teenagers than heterosexual ones - especially in the internet dating era where you can find like-minded people more easily. Parents will not suspect a same-sex dating relationship. They could let 2 young guys or 2 girls go on holiday together by themselves or stay in the same room alone. It will not be as straightforward with opposite sex teens or a mixed group without a chaperon...(it also depends how liberal the family is but the mean is pretty conservative).

It will start getting HARD when people grow older and are expected to get married to the opposite sex and deal with the whole binary-gender/heterosexual assumptions and expectations. So holding hands is pretty safe, that's a little twisted loop hole in a super patriarchal setting, but the LGBT community in Iran is still mostly in survival mode I would say. Even if mentalities are changing, it's not great - as you can imagine.

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the detailed answer. It's sad how LGBT people are treated. Sucks having to hide who you're in love with :( 

 

I remember a few times before my wife and I were married when we booked hotel rooms. One time we were asked if we wanted separate beds when they realized we didn't share the same last name. And another time we weren't even asked. We got two separate beds. So we removed the bed side table and pulled the beds together. But every day when we were out and about they pulled our beds apart again :)  

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On 2/15/2020 at 8:16 AM, @mu said:

I watched Amanda Palmer's talk a while ago, I don't remember all of it but I remember I very much enjoyed it. I haven't read the book, I will look into it! Not long ago I saw an artist in the street doing the status thing and I thought of her because for a few seconds we made a connection, the sort of connection she was talking about. At least in my head, it felt that way. When I was about to leave, he said thank you which actually startled me because I wasn't expecting him to talk :D

But anyway, there is this confusion about asking somehow, I'm not sure why it somehow tend to be seen as begging.

I also read or heard somewhere but I can't remember where/who it was 🤔 that people build stronger attachments in moments of hardship rather than joy or comfort. Maybe it's obvious but I hadn't really thought about it. And it's a pity that in more serene moments, we are not able to share as much that "something" that comes out raw in more difficult moments.

It's lovely that you even stopped by and more so that you got that connection. :) 

 

I guess there's a fine line between 'Please help me' and 'Here's an opportunity for support and connection'.

 

It might be pity, but if we make the assumption that to form deep connections you need to be open and vulnerable, then it makes sense that hardship would easier create that environment. In her book she said something along the lines of that you make the choice to open up when the pain of not asking becomes greater than asking. If there's no pain there's no vulnerability.

 

 

Thanks for sharing the LGBT situation, it's quite sad and fascinating. Hope change will come sooner rather than later.

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On 2/15/2020 at 2:57 PM, Tobbe said:

I remember a few times before my wife and I were married when we booked hotel rooms. One time we were asked if we wanted separate beds when they realized we didn't share the same last name. And another time we weren't even asked. We got two separate beds. So we removed the bed side table and pulled the beds together. But every day when we were out and about they pulled our beds apart again :)  

 

ha ha :D  where was that?

I kept my "maiden" name and we get a lot of unwarranted assumptions because it (from people but also state institutions).  For instance that we are divorced. And that is in France. Actually in Iran, women always keep their own names, so there is no funny comment about that bit.

 

But to come back to men hugging / holding hands vs machismo / homophobia, I think it can be felt in many other places to some degree. It's not always what it may seem like. Some areas of Spain,  France, Italy come to mind. There has been progress on universal love acceptance be it friendship or more, but it's not quite sorted hey...

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5 hours ago, @mu said:

ha ha :D  where was that?

I've actually seen it in the UK a few times! The beds have a hook on the side so you can attach them together without them coming apart.

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On 2/15/2020 at 6:57 AM, Tobbe said:

I remember a few times before my wife and I were married when we booked hotel rooms. One time we were asked if we wanted separate beds when they realized we didn't share the same last name. And another time we weren't even asked. We got two separate beds. So we removed the bed side table and pulled the beds together. But every day when we were out and about they pulled our beds apart again :)

 

This still happens to my wife and me when we travel, all the time. Despite having the same last name. We also get asked if we are sisters (we look nothing alike, for the record). Sigh.

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21 hours ago, starsapart said:

This still happens to my wife and me when we travel, all the time. Despite having the same last name. We also get asked if we are sisters (we look nothing alike, for the record). Sigh.

 

That sucks :(  Narrow minded people!

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