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3 hours ago, chemgeek said:

 

I do have cast iron and don't use it enough. Do you find the acidity increases how often you have to condition it?

 

For me, I find conditioning it has a lot more to do with how quickly I clean, dry, and oil it, whatever I've cooked in it. Though the nonprofit that does the fish sales says that a proper seasoning interferes with the ability to draw iron out of the pan, and that makes sense. So it's a bit of an unknown how seasoning and iron liberation affect each other.

 

I have learned more about the fish; it's calibrated to give a predictable dose when used a certain way, and that dose is reliable for about five years. (It's still usable after that, but the dosing instructions are apparently less reliable, because it's lost mass.)

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*PSA* Some people I know got freaked out re: the WHO's statements about antibody testing today. 

 

The statementis purely talking about our lack of knowledge about how good and lasting an immune response the body develops. In other words what they're saying is we don't know if antibodies in blood mean you're immune. That's it, that's all, anything else is probably from people misinterpreting what the guy said, jumping to conclusions as part of an anxiety spiral, or exaggerating purposefully for a sensational headline. 

 

Especially important: the statement by the WHO has exactly no, i.e. 0, implications on the feasibility of vaccine development, how long social distancing will need to be in effect, or literally anything else. 

 

All what they're saying is they don't want ppl jumping to conclusions that because you have antibodies you must be immune because we haven't proven that yet. We don't know. That's all.

 

*/PSA*

 

Edit to add: sorry if I sound like a human cactus, I have had to talk about 5 different ppl down from anxiety meltdowns because of those fucking irresponsible headlines and I am angry. 

 

1, antibodies almost certainly imply some degree of immunity given how the immune system works, the very low number of reported possible reinfections and how many of those were likely false negatives. 

 

2, how long immunity lasts, what level of antibodies are needed to confer immunity, how quickly the virus mutates into new enough strains the body will be able to get reinfected, and whether a blood test can detect immunity reliably is what's unknown. For many illnesses we know presence of antibodies in blood don't necessarily mean you're immune if they're not above a certain level. It's not unheard of.

 

3, Dr Ryan literally sandwiched his statements between statements of uncertainty and every single news agency out there cherry picked the most sensational phrase to quote mine. This is a fantastic example of poor quality yellow journalism that makes my blood boil. 

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*crawls out of the hole* uh, hey guys.  I'm a doctor.  I am not your doctor.  The following does not necessarily constitute medical advice.  I try not to be a doctor on the internet, but I'm happy to translate any of the medical mumbo jumbo. I am part of the Critical Care Hivemind at my institution and am trying to help track data.  I've been tracking numbers since march, and would love to help disseminate important information.

 

Sorry I haven't been around.  Pandemics are a thing where they need doctors, and I've spent the last two months between ICUs and Emergency Departments, trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can.  No, the hospitals are not closed.  Yes, we are still working at high volume conditions.  Yes, we are still worried about running out of beds, equipment, and personnel.

 

Most important for right now:

Just because the curve is flattening DOES NOT MEAN we are "winning" or it is "time to reopen".  It means we have done enough right now to keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed in most places (not NYC).  It means we need to continue what we are doing to make the curve keep going down.  If we reopen, we may see a resurgence in cases.  Why is this bad?  Because hospitals only have so many beds.  We physically cannot handle the statistical load of 1-5% of the entire population needing to be on vents (the machine that helps you breathe when you cannot breathe).  We just don't have enough equipment, or providers who know how to use it.

 

Please continue to wear your masks in public.  This is to protect other people from your droplets. 

 

Please continue to limit your need to go to enclosed or crowded spaces like grocery stores.  Respect any vulnerable population hours.  Respect your state's laws about home quarantine.

 

For many people here, you are in good health and in good shape.  You are not likely to require hospitalization.  Your case fatality rate is typically below 5%.  For people who are over the age of 80, the risk of death is much, much higher; their case fatality rate can be 27%.  That means almost a third of our elderly risk dying if they catch this virus.  Additionally, people with common conditions, even as mild as hypertension, have been shown to be more at risk for complications.  Just because you don't fall into the traditional category of immunocompromised doesn't mean you don't have risk factors for having a more severe illness.  

 

Also, if you read nothing else in this post do not drink bleach, inject bleach, or put it in your nebulizer.  DO NOT NEBULIZE THE BLEACH.  DO NOT INHALE CLEANING PRODUCTS.  DO NOT DRINK CLEANING PRODUCTS.  DO NOT ATTEMPT TO INJECT SUNLIGHT. WE DO NOT HAVE THAT TECHNOLOGY AND UV RADIATION IS KNOWN TO CAUSE CANCER.

 

*ahem*

Thank's all, hope you're doing well.

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5 minutes ago, Treva said:

Please continue to wear your masks in public.  This is to protect other people from your droplets. 

 

Please continue to limit your need to go to enclosed or crowded spaces like grocery stores.  Respect any vulnerable population hours.  Respect your state's laws about home quarantine.

 

Nope. My state's laws about home quarantine are basically, "hurry up and get back out there and spend money so small business can survive!", so I'm going to completely ignore them in favor of staying at home and staying alive.

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5 minutes ago, Scalyfreak said:

 

 

Nope. My state's laws about home quarantine are basically, "hurry up and get back out there and spend money so small business can survive!", so I'm going to completely ignore them in favor of staying at home and staying alive.

Totally.  Stay home.  double thumbs up for staying home.  I'm all for civil disobedience in the name of survival.  

 

Less of the gun toting to government places demanding to go outside.  And less of the "let's have a flash mob without masks!" type of thing.  Less of that.  It is suboptimal.

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2 hours ago, Scalyfreak said:

 

 

Nope. My state's laws about home quarantine are basically, "hurry up and get back out there and spend money so small business can survive!", so I'm going to completely ignore them in favor of staying at home and staying alive.

 

2 hours ago, Treva said:

Totally.  Stay home.  double thumbs up for staying home.  I'm all for civil disobedience in the name of survival.  

 

Less of the gun toting to government places demanding to go outside.  And less of the "let's have a flash mob without masks!" type of thing.  Less of that.  It is suboptimal.

 

"Live and let die," it seems. Not to go too far down that particular rhetorical road.

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Has anyone seen anything about using aspirin with covid-19? Word is that stroke and blood clots are turning out to be a surprisingly common thing, but I'm aware there are strokes that respond well with blood thinners, and strokes that respond badly, and I'm unclear on which covid is. (I mean, I could guess, but let's not guess.) :D

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Treva, I appreciate your passion for public health and the ridiculously high demands being put on doctors right now. (Depriving medical workers of PPE so they're reusing the same N95 mask for weeks is arguably criminal.)

 

That said, I'd appreciate it if you didn't speak to us like we're the problem. While NF almost certainly contains a range of views, it's not entirely reasonable to assume a health and fitness website with a track record for moderate and research-supported health discourse is going to be a hotbed of Covid deniers and conspiracy theorists. It's neither kind nor helpful to take that tone and automatically lecture or reprimand the people posting here.

 

Medical personnel deserve a place to vent right now. You're all being put in a ridiculous position. But this is a thread about dealing calmly and factually with (at the moment) covid-19, and has been dealing calmly and factually with it for months. There are better places on NF to vent at people who don't understand the statistics or drink bleach.

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6 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

That said, I'd appreciate it if you didn't speak to us like we're the problem. While NF almost certainly contains a range of views, it's not entirely reasonable to assume a health and fitness website with a track record for moderate and research-supported health discourse is going to be a hotbed of Covid deniers and conspiracy theorists. It's neither kind nor helpful to take that tone and automatically lecture or reprimand the people posting here.

 

I don't think they did that at all. I thought the post was very calm, considering the gravity of the subject it covered. One of the most important ingredients of respectful discourse is to give the other side the benefit of doubt and not assume the worst possible interpretation of their posts. Let's all take a couple of deep breaths together and assume that whatever looks upsetting, was not intended that way. 

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, the incense burner modifications are finally working, and I am eager to enjoy the soothing fragrance of bleach disinfectant in my home office 😛 

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On 5/15/2020 at 1:34 PM, Scalyfreak said:

I don't think they did that at all. I thought the post was very calm, considering the gravity of the subject it covered. One of the most important ingredients of respectful discourse is to give the other side the benefit of doubt and not assume the worst possible interpretation of their posts. Let's all take a couple of deep breaths together and assume that whatever looks upsetting, was not intended that way. 

Thanks!  I tried to not aggressively lose my potatoes all over the floor.  My understanding of this thread was that we were here to share research supported information.  I wanted to point out the bleach because it happened at my hospital, and we have actually seen more problems with cleaner ingestions.  I know that NF is a diverse place with people of different viewpoints, and sometimes health conscious people may latch onto less than healthy ideas.  It felt wrong to assume that everyone here holds the same ideas and approaches things in the same way.  For example, I ran into someone yesterday who thought the hospitals were closed because we didn't have any patients.  This is, ah, not quite true.  

 

But hey if someone has tech to inject sunlight let me know because that bleep should get bankrolled.

 

On 5/15/2020 at 1:34 PM, Scalyfreak said:

Now, if you'll excuse me, the incense burner modifications are finally working, and I am eager to enjoy the soothing fragrance of bleach disinfectant in my home office 😛 

*quietly screams in essential worker*

XD

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I still have not fully wrapped my mind around the notion that someone would intentionally ingest bleach or household cleanser, or any other substance that has clear warning against that on the packaging. I simply cannot comprehend the level of ignorance and the all-consuming terror of infection that takes someone to that point.

 

This reminds me that should verify if my own bleach is safe to use to wipe down groceries. If not, I need to find an alternative.

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On 5/15/2020 at 1:34 PM, Scalyfreak said:

I don't think they did that at all. I thought the post was very calm, considering the gravity of the subject it covered. One of the most important ingredients of respectful discourse is to give the other side the benefit of doubt and not assume the worst possible interpretation of their posts. Let's all take a couple of deep breaths together and assume that whatever looks upsetting, was not intended that way. 

 

1 hour ago, Treva said:

Thanks!  I tried to not aggressively lose my potatoes all over the floor.  My understanding of this thread was that we were here to share research supported information.  I wanted to point out the bleach because it happened at my hospital, and we have actually seen more problems with cleaner ingestions.  I know that NF is a diverse place with people of different viewpoints, and sometimes health conscious people may latch onto less than healthy ideas.  It felt wrong to assume that everyone here holds the same ideas and approaches things in the same way.  For example, I ran into someone yesterday who thought the hospitals were closed because we didn't have any patients.  This is, ah, not quite true.

 

Yeah, I can understand wanting to watch tone, especially given that we're all carrying the psychological weight of a pandemic and our own isolation, but I'm not sure I understand how the tone was problematic in this instance. I didn't feel particularly lectured-to, and given the proliferation of bad info in non-NF spaces, I could see wanting to make sure that the info here remains solid.

 

It could just be that I'm not seeing/hearing it because I've had to be blunt to the point of being rude with people, and it could be that I'm wrong and that I'm just missing something because of how I'm primed right now. I'm willing to be corrected if so, but I frankly think we're pretty good ATM.

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2 minutes ago, Kishi said:

given the proliferation of bad info in non-NF spaces, I could see wanting to make sure that the info here remains solid

 

On this note, I've had several reasons to be very grateful for this thread and the information in it. The knowledge that I have this one source of factual information that can be trusted, where anyone here can ask questions and know that they will receive a good answer that can be trusted, has done a lot to ease some of that psychological weight you mentioned. 

 

Thank you @sarakingdom for creating this thread!

 

And I haven't seen anything about aspirin and corona virus on the information sources I follow. (WHO, CDC, and the Swedish Folkhälsomyndigheten). 

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This thread so far has been careful not to be a free-for-all of all things coronavirus. We all have strong feelings, and there's a firehose of analysis and reaction to what's going on with various countries' responses (and ensuing population craziness) that we could post here, but by and large, we don't. It's been very calm, expert-supported, and solutions-focused.

 

Large blue letters yelling at NF members not to inject bleach may be valuable as venting about the repercussions of mismanagement of the situation for medical staff under pressure. (God knows, they deserve some venting for the disinfectant stunt in particular.) But they're neither calm nor solutions-focused. No one here had suggested a bleach cure. Given the focus of the site, the exceedingly niche per capita appeal of bleach quackery in the general population, and the fact-based discussion here to date, it's not a reasonable inference that any of us is considering a bleach cure. It was venting about the situation. As was much of the less large, less blue, less shouty part of the post.

 

Venting is a valid response to all of this, and I can't think of anyone who needs a pressure release valve more than medical personnel right now. But it's at odds with the function this particular thread has been trying to serve.

 

The basic points:

  • Please read the room.
  • Imperatives are a bad way to communicate information. We're not patients in a consult who have requested instructions. We're not displaying behaviors that need correction via imperative instructions. We're not subordinates. The same information can be expressed in a much less confrontational and judgmental way.
  • Shouting at people is not great communication. 
  • Shouting at the world in general while venting, fire away. Everyone deserves venting on this, and medical personnel more than any of us. But it's not a good read of the purpose of this space. Keeping this thread venting-free makes it easier for people to come here for information, particularly on a highly emotional topic.

(This is the calm, fact-based, solutions-focused way of saying, "I'm quite angry you spoke to me that condescending way. I understand that disturbing things are happening to you, and want to support you in dealing with them healthily as best I can, but if you could stop using me and others here as convenient stand-ins for what you wish you could say to the patient in your hospital who drank bleach and the people flooding into bars and increasing your workload, I'd really appreciate it. It's helpful to say those things and express that frustration in order to process it, but it's much less good to do so without considering the target and venue.")

 

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40 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

if you could stop using me and others here as convenient stand-ins for what you wish you could say to the patient in your hospital who drank bleach and the people flooding into bars and increasing your workload, I'd really appreciate it. 

 

This is what I meant when I said we need to give others the benefit of doubt and not assume the worst about their posts. It was obviously not meant the way you interpreted it, as Treva's second post made clear. 

 

Are you okay? How are you really doing with all this?

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3 minutes ago, Scalyfreak said:

This is what I meant when I said we need to give others the benefit of doubt and not assume the worst about their posts.

 

That's why, as I said, I went with the calm, fact-based discussion of the communication issues. That was illustrative of the problem; you'll note it was not the issue I raised, but the example.

 

I think I've been pretty objective in laying out the communication issues, and added a lot of factual clarity in case I'd been unclear. I'm pretty confident about what I've said lining up with my personal goals for this thread. I think it's calm, objective, addresses an issue, and is careful about the statements made. I believe I've also been consistently supportive of Treva's emotional health needs and difficult position in this.

 

I'm not the boss of anyone, so all that's fine. But I have thought about this carefully before weighing in. 

 

1 hour ago, Scalyfreak said:

Are you okay? How are you really doing with all this?

 

Not bad at all, thanks! We're all safe, and I've been catching up on sleep this weekend. :)

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So my region has basically no virus activity and we're starting to open up, which I generally support due to the low level of illness here. On the other hand, there's talk of opening interprovincial borders or even the border with the US and that makes me nervous for two reasons: 

 

1. Almost everywhere else in the country has more viral activity than us, with the exception of the province that hasn't had an outbreak yet. & The US is a raging dumster fire at the moment (no offense to Americans but your federal government hasn't so much dropped the ball as chucked it into the sun). Opening up to those regions is asking for a flare up here because there's so much more illness there and now we know people are contagious days before they're symptomatic (and by some studies are most contagious the day before onset of symptoms) and;

 

2. I don't trust people to properly self isolate in spring and summer. Winter is cold and miserable here anyway so there's far less temptation but summer is very nice here. In spring and summer I suspect we won't get compliance with quarantine orders and therefore we are going to get community spread. It only takes one person attending a market to cause a superspreader incident. 

 

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3 hours ago, chemgeek said:

2. I don't trust people to properly self isolate in spring and summer.

 

This is causing me a lot of stress right now, for all the reasons you mentioned in your post. Where I live, so much of public opinion insists that self-isolating is an overreaction and not necessary, and I firmly believe we're going to have a painful second wave as a result of, well, no one taking precautions. :( 

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Yeah. I agree. If the plan included like you must check in to an approved quarantine facility or some sort of surveillance to ensure compliance I would be more comfortable. But that understandably has its own issues (namely that Canadians would be loathe to accept what amounts to 2 weeks of house arrest or imprisonment as the cost of travel). OTOH, I am a very firm believer in the idea that your right to wave your arm ends at the bridge of my nose, so to speak, and that therefore ppl who are public health threats need to have freedom of movement curtailed  by force if they won't curtail it on their own. That's... An unpopular opinion with my prepper/gun nut relatives. 

 

Edit: not a doctor, just on my work's covid planning team and convincing people who don't believe it's a threat to comply regardless has been a challenge. 

 

Also trying to respond to the threat at the pace at which science is moving has felt like trying to build a shed on a beach in the wave zone. The ground keeps moving. 

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18 minutes ago, chemgeek said:

Edit: not a doctor, just on my work's covid planning team and convincing people who don't believe it's a threat to comply regardless has been a challenge. 

 

I'm just a regular team lead at my job, and I struggle with that... I can only imagine the stress levels of having to acknowledge and respond to some of the questions I see and hear in the open town hall meetings my company has been holding.

 

Remember, no matter how much it sometimes feel like it, idiocy is not actually contagious! 

 

 

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I would argue in most cases it's more ignorance (thankfully curable), in some cases it's denial (also curable), and in a small portion of cases, it's willful disregard for the wellbeing of others (which appears to be contagious given how many otherwise compassionate & caring humans I know start taking that tack if exposed to far right propaganda outlets for too long). 

 

All of which have less to do with intellectual capacity/disability & more to do with morality, culture & access to reliable information. 

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PSA: if wearing a mask, it needs to cover your mouth and nose. If you can't breathe like that & the mask you're using is home made, odds are it's made from a non breathable fabric. Make sure to make your mask out of something breathable like cotton. 

 

For info on fabric selection, see below:

https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/808377

 

If it's a commercial mask or if you have made sure you chose the right fabric, please expect some degree of resistance - air isn't going to flow as quickly through a permeable barrier as it will in open air.  If it's an anxiety trigger, try to take slow, deep breaths and also try to wear it a little each day. I sympathize - having stuff over my face triggers medical trauma for me (long story). Desensitization and getting used to it in an environment that feels safe helps. 

 

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Gloves PSA:

 

So I am seeing a lot of people wearing gloves around my city and doing so improperly. To get why I am going to give the advice that follows you need to understand the principle behind the use of gloves as PPE in the context of biohazard and chemical hazard handling. 

 

Gloves serve 2 main purposes as PPE:

1. Protect the wearer's skin from contamination. 

2. Contain the risk of spreading the hazard outside of the current setting (called cross-contamination). 

 

2 is every bit as important as 1. If you spread the hazard to another human objectively that's as bad as you getting exposed in terms of number of casualties right? 

 

So, when trained scientists, technicians, and medical professionals handle something that might be a hazard, we glove up, do the thing, remove gloves properly, throw away the gloves (or sterilize them if reusable), and wash our hands. Why do we wash our hands? Because as trained experts, we know gloves aren't a perfect line of defense - some things han penetrate past them or we might have screwed up in removing them. Gloves therefore augment handwashing, they don't replace it. 

 

Now what I am seeing a lot of out in public is people wearing the same pair of gloves all day, removing and replacing them as needed between toilet breaks, meals, etc.

 

That's a problem for a couple reasons: Firstly, everything they touch is spreading to everything they touch after. In a university faculty, this is how an innocent bystander gets a base burn in their most sensitive areas when they use the bathroom after touching a door handle that was touched by someone who forgot to remove their gloves after preparing a caustic solution (yes that's a thing that happened at a place I worked - not to me thankfully - and is why I habitually wash my hands before and after using the toilet). With biohazard, it's more difficult because it might be 2 weeks before they know what happened. In public in a pandemic, it's how person A who thinks they're being careful and responsible accidentally infects possibly themselves and others. 

 

Leaving aside the issue of whether it helps (currently the balance of what I have reviewed suggests that for laypeople it doesn't make a significant difference from handwashing alone. But that could change as science develops - like how the face mask recommendations changed), if you choose to wear gloves you need to be thoughtful and responsible with them. I don't personally believe gloves are warranted based on current recommendations for non medical professionals and non scientists/technicians. That said, everyone is going to make their own decisions and with a harm reduction pov I figured I would share how to do it right if you're going to.  As a PPE trainer, these are my recommendations:

1. Use single-use disposable non medical grade plastic gloves, ideally something hypoallergenic like neoprene or nitrile.

2. Change your gloves every time you change settings. This prevents cross contamination between areas. 

3. Make sure to use proper technique in removing your gloves. I will post a YouTube video below showing this technique. Practice at home with ketchup or something to get the technique down. 

4. Wash your hands after you remove gloves, every time. 

 

 

 

Above all: please don't assume that gloves will protect you because a good safety strategy doesn't have a single layer to it. If you're going to use gloves, use them in addition to following existing recommendations on COVID-19 precautions in your area, not instead of. A good safety strategy is layered like an onion because if outer layers fail, hopefully the inner layers will prevent any issue.

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I think basic human nature has concluded that gloves are keeping us safe enough we no longer have to be careful, for the same reasons basic human nature concluded that wearing a mask negates the need for social distancing. Obviously, both conclusions are wrong.

 

I may have misunderstood, but my understanding is to treat gloves like hand sanitizer... They are a fallback for when you don't have access to soap and water for proper hand washing, but they don't replace hand washing, or make it unnecessary. And for me, who has no idea how to remove them properly, they add little to no additional protection. 

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