Hatter vs Hatter

[raptron]

Having a place to consistently train outside my apartment has been a GAME CHANGER. I highly, highly recommend it. 

 

Love your bugs.  

 

I have nothing to offer about existential work dread except that I've been there and it's tough. Big hugs. 

[Elastigirl]

Super cool bug drawings!

Seems to me like you've talked for a while about being unhappy at work. Maybe it is time to think through what your next steps would be.

[Mad Hatter]

1 hour ago, Scaly Freak said:

What is the difference between procrastination and resting? 😛 

Resting is productive procrastination. 😄Like reading books, as opposed to scrolling up and down screens.

 

I'm trying to stay positive! Sure some of it is laziness and poor decision making, but some of it is legit low spoons and there's no point in beating myself up over that.

 

1 hour ago, sylph said:

?

Isn't the point of training to get stronger?

Hah indeed. 😀I should perhaps explain it better. The facility has some kind of regular gym, but the main focus is various climbing toys. For example they have a so called moon board, which looks like this:

 

 

The holds are very small, and the angle is very steep, and it's a very powerful style climbing. All the things I'm bad at. To the point where I don't think I can even do the easiest moves. Basically it's not a beginner gym, like imagine if a gym only had 50 kg dumbbells and up. Another big part of training for climbing is finger boarding, meaning hanging off tiny ledges, which my fingers are not strong enough for it being a productive use of time. People at my level are generally speaking better off doing more climbing. But hopefully there are some other things for climbing that I could actually use, and hopefully there's a comfortable gym space to do other things in. It's a tiny facility, not at all like the proper gyms, so I have no idea. 

[Mad Hatter]

1 hour ago, raptron said:

Having a place to consistently train outside my apartment has been a GAME CHANGER. I highly, highly recommend it. 

 

Love your bugs.  

 

I have nothing to offer about existential work dread except that I've been there and it's tough. Big hugs. 

Yeah I might have to resort to that. I have all the things at home, but it's become so hard now, especially working from home. There are no boundaries left. I'm gonna explore on Monday! 

 

There's so many awesome ones. Nature keeps blowing my mind!

 

Thanks, appreciated. 

 

17 minutes ago, Elastigirl said:

Super cool bug drawings!

Seems to me like you've talked for a while about being unhappy at work. Maybe it is time to think through what your next steps would be.

Thank you!

 

Oh I'm thinking. I'm just really stuck. I don't really have any marketable skills outside software development, and I'm bored not only by my particular job, but also by coding as well as by the industry as a whole. I could learn something new but I don't know what. It makes it very difficult to figure which step to take...

[Defining]

7 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

So I should probably do an update. Things have not been going as well as I'd like. Work is becoming a huge problem. As in opening up my laptop in the morning fills me with existential dread because the work feels so utterly pointless and boring. I desperately need to find ideally a way to get out, or at least temporarily a way to not let work moods get in the way of life, and instead use it as a call to action. I just need to figure out how when my energy gets so sapped. 😕

 

I'm sorry that you're running into this; I've struggled with something similar for years - so while I don't have any solutions, I can offer commiseration! 

[raptron]

47 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Yeah I might have to resort to that. I have all the things at home, but it's become so hard now, especially working from home. There are no boundaries left. I'm gonna explore on Monday! 

YES EXACTLY. IT IS ENTIRELY ABOUT THE BOUNDARIES. Take the space as designated for OTHER BIG ACTIVE THINGS. 

 

For a while, I was training in, working in, and sleeping in my bedroom and it was making my brain melt. Boundaries are great. We love boundaries. 

 

47 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Oh I'm thinking. I'm just really stuck. I don't really have any marketable skills outside software development, and I'm bored not only by my particular job, but also by coding as well as by the industry as a whole. I could learn something new but I don't know what. It makes it very difficult to figure which step to take...

I think a lot of people who are not in software development are impressed enough by software development that I bet you could shift to other industries pretty easily. The not knowing where makes it trickier, though.

[WhiteGhost]

10 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

For example they have a so called moon board, which looks like this:

That looks like a whole lotta suck.  I can attempt those kind of walls ONCE, and after that I'm done.  If everything there was that level it wouldn't make sense for me to try training there either

[Mad Hatter]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:04 PM, Defining said:

I'm sorry that you're running into this; I've struggled with something similar for years - so while I don't have any solutions, I can offer commiseration! 

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your struggles. How did you figure it out? Or are you still struggling?

 

On 8/7/2020 at 8:48 PM, raptron said:

YES EXACTLY. IT IS ENTIRELY ABOUT THE BOUNDARIES. Take the space as designated for OTHER BIG ACTIVE THINGS. 

 

For a while, I was training in, working in, and sleeping in my bedroom and it was making my brain melt. Boundaries are great. We love boundaries. 

 

I think a lot of people who are not in software development are impressed enough by software development that I bet you could shift to other industries pretty easily. The not knowing where makes it trickier, though.

Ahh you're talking so much sense. Now I really hope the gym is ok! Boundaries really are great. Before I didn't have much in my living room besides my training toys and my computer, but now I'm slowly turning part of it into my art space and I think that's part of the boundary blurring problems. Plus it's nice to have a reason to leave the flat. 

 

I think you're right, but there's more to the boredom. I have this suspicion that I'm also bored of working for The Man. And that I want to learn/use a different type of skills/part of my brain. I feel like my days of hard science/software making are coming to an end, been there, done that sort of thing, and now I want something neeeeeeew!

 

14 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

That looks like a whole lotta suck.  I can attempt those kind of walls ONCE, and after that I'm done.  If everything there was that level it wouldn't make sense for me to try training there either

That's the point of it! It's max strength and power training, the whole idea is that you can't fancy technique your way out of the moves. I did manage to find a picture and it looks like they also have a so called splatter wall, which is a wall with a whole bunch of random holds and you can do whatever you want on them and that looks a lot more scalable, and fun. Unfortunately I couldn't find a picture of the gym area. I really hope they do have one, it'd make a pretty dumb training facility if you can't do your strength training there. I'll see on Monday!

[Mad Hatter]

Great day today! No work and it was gloriously warm and sunny. You see, when there's a torturous heat wave covering the rest of Europe, it means it's perfect here. 😉 I went for a swim in the morning, then climbing. I finished the super frustrating problem from last time - yay! The annoying part is that I could've finished it waaay sooner, if I'd only trusted my strength. The move I struggled with feels incredibly gross, and I was convinced that if I moved my hand it'd be even more gross and my arm would buckle or slip and I'd crash into the corner behind me.  So I kept trying to do it in the same old way, which was soooo close. Then a random climber suggests that I move my hand, and in my frustration I decide to screw safety and try it despite my conviction of impending doom. Turns out, it was absolutely fine. I didn't die and it made the whole crux a piece of cake. 😄 Then I found a new frustrating project, but luckily this one's not gross at all, it's reeeaaally fun! Very tricksy.

 

After that I hung out friends, we did a simple cheese and bread and bubbly wine picnic. 😍

[Defining]

2 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Thanks. Sorry to hear about your struggles. How did you figure it out? Or are you still struggling?

Existential 'blah' is more or less my default setting, unfortunately. Have been working on 'cart before the horse' approach by simply doing the things I know I'm supposed to do, regardless of my indifference to them. YMMV, my own success depends on the day, in terms of how productive I actually am. Sorry, wish I had better suggestions, but sometimes 'fake it 'till you make it' is the best option.

[Mad Hatter]

On 8/8/2020 at 11:43 PM, Defining said:

Existential 'blah' is more or less my default setting, unfortunately. Have been working on 'cart before the horse' approach by simply doing the things I know I'm supposed to do, regardless of my indifference to them. YMMV, my own success depends on the day, in terms of how productive I actually am. Sorry, wish I had better suggestions, but sometimes 'fake it 'till you make it' is the best option.

Oh sorry to hear that. I get your point, and I think there's a lot of truth to it. Until the tradeoffs become too great.

[KB Girl]

Oh I hope the gym had some space for you to train at. Even just as an excuse to leave the house it sounds great. Especially since work is so dreadful now and you also do that in your house, it must be good to get out of there. 

I was going to say that depending on how your money situation is that perhaps you could just wait tables for a while because that might just be better than the current situation.. but... I suppose there aren't as many of that sort of jobs now eh. 

[Mad Hatter]

On 8/12/2020 at 1:25 AM, KB Girl said:

Oh I hope the gym had some space for you to train at. Even just as an excuse to leave the house it sounds great. Especially since work is so dreadful now and you also do that in your house, it must be good to get out of there. 

I was going to say that depending on how your money situation is that perhaps you could just wait tables for a while because that might just be better than the current situation.. but... I suppose there aren't as many of that sort of jobs now eh. 

I... I still haven't been... I went climbing again on Monday, then I got even more sore and then I just haven't been motivated the last few days. This lack of enthusiasm still seriously weirds me out! I never in a million years expected this to happen. 

 

I actually have been considering taking up a "crappy" job like that, but it just doesn't make sense. For one thing, I don't think there's a lot of jobs out there, not just now, but also in general since I don't speak Finnish. I'm also not sure I'm willing to see my savings dwindle for no good reason. I might need that money later, either for school or for getting started in a new field or for something else entirely. I'm also not convinced I wouldn't get into exactly the same spot after just a few weeks, unless there's a purpose behind it. Though there have been days where I've been sitting outside with my laptop, half listening to a boring meeting while watching people cut bushes or plant weeds or paint fences and daydreaming about what that'd be like. 😂

 

For now I think the best thing might be to still suck it up for a while longer, but to find a way to not let it get to my head as much as it does now. Considering how much slack I have at work I'm really making it worse for myself than it needs to be. Any ideas? One thing I've been thinking about is rituals to mark the beginning and end of the work day, something to act as a reset button, so that I can go and be more productive instead of feeling bored and mopey. Don't know. Ideas are very welcome. 🙂 

 

[Scaly Freak]

21 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

 One thing I've been thinking about is rituals to mark the beginning and end of the work day, something to act as a reset button, so that I can go and be more productive instead of feeling bored and mopey. Don't know. Ideas are very welcome. 🙂 

 

I strongly recommend this. Dedicated work area that you completely avoid outside of work hours also helps.

[Mad Hatter]

21 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

I strongly recommend this. Dedicated work area that you completely avoid outside of work hours also helps.

I did think about you when writing that, I remember you've been doing something along those lines. Have you found anything particularly helpful? 

 

A dedicated work area is tricky in a one bedroom flat, especially as I get bored I want to move around and change position and location. I made a standing desk out of my book case, but that's in the bedroom. I hate it, but I don't want to taint my art desk in the living room! I do also have a bit of unused space in the kitchen which I could use, but then I would lose the standing desk and it's distracting because it's in the kitchen. Hmm. Maybe that's still the better option since it's an unused bit of space... Not the kitchen obviously, but that little bit of space. The problem with the bedroom is that there are books and there's a bed! Hmm conundrum...

[Mike Wazowski]

Something I've found helpful - putting away my work computer and all accessories (notebook, keyboard / mouse, laptop stand, etc.) completely out of sight - mine is behind something else on a shelf on my TV stand. It helps as a total shut down ritual at the end of the work day - and a grudging start up ritual at the beginning.

 

Since my work desk is in between my living room and my kitchen in an open floorplan (1 BR flat as well), this still lets me only have the room function as my work place for my working hours, rather than feeling that way all the time.

[GoodDoug]

3 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

One thing I've been thinking about is rituals to mark the beginning and end of the work day, something to act as a reset button, so that I can go and be more productive instead of feeling bored and mopey. Don't know. Ideas are very welcome.

I have a lamp on my work from home desk. When Start working, I turn the lamp on. When I've decided I am finished, I turn it off. On days where I want to bug out early, turning off the lamp actually keeps me from coming back to the computer. On days where I know I need to come back to finish something, having the lamp on is a great reminder to come back and get it done.

It feels good turning the lamp off... but it also feels pretty good to turn it on in the morning... partly because I know I can turn it off when I want/need to.

[Scaly Freak]

6 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

I did think about you when writing that, I remember you've been doing something along those lines. Have you found anything particularly helpful? 

 

The most helpful thing for me is to leave the upstairs guest room and close the door at the end of the day, but that doesn't sound like that's an option for you.

 

I agree with Mike and Doug that having a ritual that starts the work day, and then another one that ends it, makes a huge difference. For me, I have my morning routine I spent time creating a few challenges ago. I also have an end-of-day routine, that involves deliberately saving all my work and then turning off the work computer. I also make a point of saying good night to at least one coworker in chat before I do. Then I hang out in the opposite corner of the guest room and color at least one picture in the app on my phone, before leaving work behind and heading back downstairs.

 

If you can make it so you don't see your work setup after the workday is over, whether by covering it up or by putting it away, I think that will make it a lot easier for you to ignore work when you are outside your work hours. It makes a huge difference. If that requires rearranging your furniture, the benefit may well be worth the efforts.

[Defining]

Taking a walk outside as a 'daily commute' is another nice way to separate work time and not-work time.

[Scaly Freak]

6 minutes ago, Defining said:

Taking a walk outside as a 'daily commute' is another nice way to separate work time and not-work time.

 

I used to do that! Then summer came and it started being too hot outside for that. But come fall, this will absolutely start happening again.  

[Mike Wazowski]

14 hours ago, Scaly Freak said:

I used to do that! Then summer came and it started being too hot outside for that. But come fall, this will absolutely start happening again.  

110% agree. It's toasty even at 8 in the morning these days, sadly (though that didn't stop me for a while at still getting out and getting moving - but I slowly fell out of it).

[sylph]

3 hours ago, Mike Wazowski said:

110% agree. It's toasty even at 8 in the morning these days, sadly (though that didn't stop me for a while at still getting out and getting moving - but I slowly fell out of it).

Yep, I do this too. Now it's 80+ even at 7a here, but I still try to get some in. Helps with the waking up and the transition of mental state. I even listen to audiobooks while I do it, just like I used to do in the car on the way to work.

[KB Girl]

On 8/13/2020 at 8:07 PM, Mad Hatter said:

I... I still haven't been... I went climbing again on Monday, then I got even more sore and then I just haven't been motivated the last few days. This lack of enthusiasm still seriously weirds me out! I never in a million years expected this to happen. 

It is odd! but with the world standing on it's head things do change.. and you've got a new hobby also.. and the weather... I'm hoping it's a combination of those things because the only other reason I can think of is a (mild) depression. 

 

On 8/13/2020 at 8:07 PM, Mad Hatter said:

I actually have been considering taking up a "crappy" job like that, but it just doesn't make sense. For one thing, I don't think there's a lot of jobs out there, not just now, but also in general since I don't speak Finnish. I'm also not sure I'm willing to see my savings dwindle for no good reason. I might need that money later, either for school or for getting started in a new field or for something else entirely. I'm also not convinced I wouldn't get into exactly the same spot after just a few weeks, unless there's a purpose behind it. Though there have been days where I've been sitting outside with my laptop, half listening to a boring meeting while watching people cut bushes or plant weeds or paint fences and daydreaming about what that'd be like. 😂

 

Yes. Now that you've spelled it out like that it was a stupid idea. 

What do you consider meaningful work? does it need to be more aligned with your interests / ambitions? or doesn't the actual work matter so much as just that it contributes to a better world in whatever small or large way? 

 

On 8/13/2020 at 8:07 PM, Mad Hatter said:

For now I think the best thing might be to still suck it up for a while longer, but to find a way to not let it get to my head as much as it does now. Considering how much slack I have at work I'm really making it worse for myself than it needs to be. Any ideas? One thing I've been thinking about is rituals to mark the beginning and end of the work day, something to act as a reset button, so that I can go and be more productive instead of feeling bored and mopey. Don't know. Ideas are very welcome. 🙂 

It is more about how you're doing the work than what you're actually doing? You're stuck with the projects you've got? 

Is it an option to move back to the office? Could you make some longer work days and work less days total? 

[@mu]

Coming late but I love the bug drawing page!

 

18 hours ago, KB Girl said:

Could you make some longer work days and work less days total? 

 

This if you are indeed able to work with your own schedule.  I would play on working days or stack working hours during a period I'm less likely to procrastinate, get on with it and be free afterwards (or before). So more intensity but shorter work periods (= feeling less wasted).  When I was self-employed it worked well but as an employee, it's not always doable. During the lockdown, I still had to be "present" (callable) between 9-12 and 14-18 more or less. I'm not a fan of this type of framework, it just makes slack more likely. But that's how it is for now. We have a hello and good bye channels for people working remotely.

 

Personally during the week I can't do much after work (too tired physically and mentally to do anything too involved like training or creative stuff), so I do that before work. I manage because I'm a morning person and I don't mind waking up at 5.30am. But maybe you could find the slots that work for you.

My work resets are: bike commute, definitely a big reset. And during the lockdown, putting away my work laptop (I don't have work notifications on my personal phone, I could but they are mostly switched off).  Maybe some self-care could work too? like taking a shower, changing clothes?

[Mad Hatter]

Thanks so much for your suggestions, much appreciated! I've compiled a list and I'll think about which ones I'd like to try to implement. I already shut down my laptop at the end of the day, which helps a lot in marking the work day as complete. What it doesn't help with is the lingering bad feels and the tiredness. But other things might help.  

 

On 8/15/2020 at 5:07 PM, KB Girl said:

It is odd! but with the world standing on it's head things do change.. and you've got a new hobby also.. and the weather... I'm hoping it's a combination of those things because the only other reason I can think of is a (mild) depression. 

Can't blame it on the weather here.  I'm for sure in a somewhat depressive slump, on some days it's fine, on some days it's more than mild. But in the past I've still wanted to do all the things, I just haven't been able to. No I'm quite blasé towards everything. I think you're right in that some of the enthusiasm has been displaced by thinking about art. And some of it is probably because I feel so very unfit right now and it's not fun starting fresh and realizing how much you've "let yourself go" for lack of a less awful expression.

 

On 8/15/2020 at 5:07 PM, KB Girl said:

Yes. Now that you've spelled it out like that it was a stupid idea. 

What do you consider meaningful work? does it need to be more aligned with your interests / ambitions? or doesn't the actual work matter so much as just that it contributes to a better world in whatever small or large way? 

It's really not a stupid idea! I even have been considering it at times.  Right now is just not the time.

 

OOOF difficult questions! I... don't know. It'd be nice if it was aligned with some of my interests, but I'm not sure if the actual work matters or not. Actually no, I do think it matters. At least I'm very bored with what I'm doing right now, on both a technical level and industry level. For example I couldn't imagine going back to my previous job or similar, despite genuinely believing I'd be contributing in some small minuscule way. I think I'd like to feel more directly involved with the people I'm affecting. Work that's less abstract, if that makes any sense? There are actually a lot of people that benefit from what I'm working on now too, but it feels like I'm working less for those people and more to enable the higher ups to stuff their pockets... Maaaybe being a cog in the wheel would be ok if I worked on something really, really cool, but I can't imagine what kind of thing that'd be.

 

On 8/16/2020 at 11:41 AM, @mu said:

Coming late but I love the bug drawing page!

 

 

This if you are indeed able to work with your own schedule.  I would play on working days or stack working hours during a period I'm less likely to procrastinate, get on with it and be free afterwards (or before). So more intensity but shorter work periods (= feeling less wasted).  When I was self-employed it worked well but as an employee, it's not always doable. During the lockdown, I still had to be "present" (callable) between 9-12 and 14-18 more or less. I'm not a fan of this type of framework, it just makes slack more likely. But that's how it is for now. We have a hello and good bye channels for people working remotely.

 

Personally during the week I can't do much after work (too tired physically and mentally to do anything too involved like training or creative stuff), so I do that before work. I manage because I'm a morning person and I don't mind waking up at 5.30am. But maybe you could find the slots that work for you.

My work resets are: bike commute, definitely a big reset. And during the lockdown, putting away my work laptop (I don't have work notifications on my personal phone, I could but they are mostly switched off).  Maybe some self-care could work too? like taking a shower, changing clothes?

Thanks, nature is so fun!

 

I need to be semi available between 10 and 17, but honestly I'm not even getting close to those hours. Many of them are staring at the screen until I get bored and give up and take a nap or go outside, before going back to staring at the screen. Nobody seems to care about my lack of productivity. We used to effectively be two people in my team, now we're 5-6, which means I don't have as much responsibility or pressure to get things done as before, which lowers motivation even more. (Not that it's the right kind of motivation) Either way, my point is that increasing intensity is a good idea, but it only works when I have a clear agenda and a lot to do. Plus I need to have the mental capacity for it. Now it's very seldom that I get sucked in enough in a problem to warrant that kind of intensity. And honestly it never seems worth it in the end, because as you say, it's very mentally draining and effectively ruins my evening. That's the absolute worst part of the job, it just sucks my prime mental energy.

 

I've been tryyyying to use my mornings more productively, but it's so hard! I wake up early enough, but it often takes a whiiile to turn into even a semblance of a human being.  Especially when the work anxiety kicks in first thing and it's a struggle to get out of bed. But that's something that's absolutely within my control and that's where learning to compartmentalize better comes in! I'm not exactly proud of it, but I could easily get away with working say 4 hours a day (actually 4 hours would be a hugely productive day), and there's no reason why I should be unhappy for 24 hours because of it. It's just tricky when there's pesky things like guilt and boredom and feels getting in the way.

 

ALSO I'M SORRY GUYS BLEEEH I'M SO BORED WITH MYSELF! 

 

I haven't even managed to draw pictures this past week! 😭