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WhiteGhost

WhiteGhost Enters the Beyond Times

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21 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

 

The concept of school is to make sure everyone has the ability to learn what they need to learn to be able to ge a good education later in life. That's not in any way horrifying.

 

However, the way most public school systems execute when they try to put that concept into action, sucks royally.

Concept was probably the wrong word to use, my English is lacking  😕 

Equal opportunity was one of the ideas behind the school system, but even there it is failing.. even in countries that only have public schools. I realise that for a lot of kids it’s probably a very good thing that they can go to school, for some it’s even an opportunity to get a decent meal... but.. ahh there is just so much wrong with it 😕 

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16 hours ago, KB Girl said:

incase you’re interested.

That was very interesting.  And while I don't disagree with his premise, I don't see how his implied proposal would be in any way workable.  His suggestion that the primary goal of education is to get a university degree I thought was very accurate, and especially so here.  It is no secret that the current university education does not prepare most people for employment (in terms of actual job skills).  I have my own beef with the education process because it has trained us to believe that only white collar office jobs are "good" jobs and blue collar stuff like electricians and plumbers are what you do if you can't hack it.   This is, of course, nonsense.  But it is extremely ingrained nonsense.  

 

15 hours ago, Scaly Freak said:

 

The concept of school is to make sure everyone has the ability to learn what they need to learn to be able to ge a good education later in life. That's not in any way horrifying.

 

However, the way most public school systems execute when they try to put that concept into action, sucks royally.

I would say that the way most schools execute in general fails in that regard, both public and private.  It should be noted here that is not in any way a reflection of the teachers, who are for the most part doing the best they can within a broken system.  

 

15 hours ago, KB Girl said:

I realise that for a lot of kids it’s probably a very good thing that they can go to school, for some it’s even an opportunity to get a decent meal... but.. ahh there is just so much wrong with it 😕 

The school system is horribly flawed, but it is by far better than the alternative of not having school at all

 

1 minute ago, RogueLibrarian said:

Followiiiiing

Hi, glad to have you along!

 

---------------------------------

 

Today was a day. Barely...

 

I am still not feeling well and decided not to do anything at all today.  After dropping Ghostlet off at school I went back to bed and sent most of the day there.  I got up when he got home and made some dinner (Steak & broccoli) and then helped him with his homework and now I am getting ready to crawl back in bed.  I had forgotten how much being sick sucks. 

 

Also, to all of you cat owners out there, do your cats get all weird when they are in heat?  Wraith has bee meowling constantly for a couple of days now and is always flopping around at my feet.  It was cute at first, but I has become tiresome, especially when I am trying to sleep.

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19 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

do your cats get all weird when they are in heat?  Wraith has bee meowling constantly for a couple of days now

 

I haven't had a non-spayed female cat in a long time, but yeah, that checks out.

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26 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

I have my own beef with the education process because it has trained us to believe that only white collar office jobs are "good" jobs and blue collar stuff like electricians and plumbers are what you do if you can't hack it.   This is, of course, nonsense.  But it is extremely ingrained nonsense.  

 

It's also flat out stupid, because it implies that any kind of physical labor is super-easy, and not actually requiring skills or knowledge, which is so far from the truth I don't even know where to start with this. The people who repaired my kitchen, whether the person who laid down the floor boards, or the person who installed the granite counters, or the plumbers who repaired the leak, or the electrician who rushed over to determine why the reinstalled dishwasher reeked of burning electronics and then proceeded to save the day by replacing the fried parts, were neither stupid or lazy. Anyone who comes to that conclusion after watching them work is either prejudiced or an idiot, or a combination of the two.

 

36 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

The school system is horribly flawed, but it is by far better than the alternative of not having school at all

 

I'm conflicted on this. I think most school systems on paper are pretty good. They look flawed because they are broken due to a lack of funding, and in most countries teachers are horribly under-paid and treated as expendable non-skilled workers.

 

Teaching is difficult and exhausting. Teachers should be revered and treated with the awe and respect we give fighter pilots and specialists in the medical field. They should make copious amounts of money, they should be able to control their work hours and their classroom environments the way a judge control their court room. Schools should be temples, and knowledge should be treated like the greatest and most sacred life goal anyone could have.

 

And instead it is the opposite, most of the time. It's sad. :( 

 

41 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

Also, to all of you cat owners out there, do your cats get all weird when they are in heat?  Wraith has bee meowling constantly for a couple of days now and is always flopping around at my feet.  It was cute at first, but I has become tiresome, especially when I am trying to sleep.

 

That is standard horny cat behavior. There will probably also be aggression at some point.

 

One of many reasons why shelters spay cats before adopting them out. ;) 

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23 hours ago, RogueLibrarian said:

 

I haven't had a non-spayed female cat in a long time, but yeah, that checks out.

Good to know

 

22 hours ago, Scaly Freak said:

It's also flat out stupid, because it implies that any kind of physical labor is super-easy, and not actually requiring skills or knowledge, which is so far from the truth I don't even know where to start with this

Not only that it implies the work is less worthwhile than sitting in a cubicle pushing buttons on a keyboard, a notion that has never sat right with me.

 

22 hours ago, Scaly Freak said:

I think most school systems on paper are pretty good

I suppose it depends on what you definition of "good" is.  In my mind, an education should teach, beyond basic literacy and scientific understanding, a knowledge of how to use information in a meaningful way.  Most of the education systems I see know are great at teaching information, but when you have all of that information and more with a few searches on Google, the classical purpose of education (imparting information) is obsolete.  What is needed now is a way to filter and analyze readily available information, and then understand how to use that information productively.  I don't see many school programs set up for this new paradigm. 

 

-----------------------------

 

Today was another day of pretty much absolutely nothing.  I should have called this challenge "WhiteGhost takes naps all day".  I am feeling somewhat better now, though, so maybe soon I can start getting on with the challenge at hand.

 

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14 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

Not only that it implies the work is less worthwhile than sitting in a cubicle pushing buttons on a keyboard, a notion that has never sat right with me.

 

Me neither. And long before my recent experience with skilled blue collar workers, I should add, though the kitchen ordeal really reminded me of why I appreciate them. :) 

 

14 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

I suppose it depends on what you definition of "good" is.  In my mind, an education should teach, beyond basic literacy and scientific understanding, a knowledge of how to use information in a meaningful way.  Most of the education systems I see know are great at teaching information, but when you have all of that information and more with a few searches on Google, the classical purpose of education (imparting information) is obsolete.  What is needed now is a way to filter and analyze readily available information, and then understand how to use that information productively.  I don't see many school programs set up for this new paradigm. 

 

Wait. What kind of screwed up and totally failed school system does not cover the basics of information analysis? (Rhetorical question. Please don't answer. I see proof of it every time I check Facebook.)

 

I don't know if it was the school system or if I was simply incredibly lucky with teachers from when I was 7 until I graduated from high school at the age of 18, but the idea that sources of information are to be compared and evaluated, and how to do that, was there from the first week of first grade, when our teacher showed us how to search for reference materials in the school library. It is right up there with literacy in my mind - I don't remember how I learned it because it's so long ago that I've forgotten. Naively, I assumed that school systems that actually try to teach, also teach how to learn, which is really what "how to evaluate the information in front of you" means.

 

So I guess my definition of "good" is that the system is set up to teach critical thinking and information analysis to its students. If it fails to do that for external reasons, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad system... but if it's not even trying, then that system has a big problem.

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16 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

So I guess my definition of "good" is that the system is set up to teach critical thinking and information analysis to its students. If it fails to do that for external reasons, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad system... but if it's not even trying, then that system has a big problem.

The problem is, you can't quantify critical thinking skills, and testing companies make a lot of money from standardized testing, so they are going to lobby hard for schools to teach things they can test.

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1 hour ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

The problem is, you can't quantify critical thinking skills, and testing companies make a lot of money from standardized testing, so they are going to lobby hard for schools to teach things they can test.

 

True, and that's before we even go into the challenges in hiring teachers who can impart critical thinking skills and remain willing to do it year in and year out, while over-worked and under-paid.

 

Ironically, once you get into workplace learning, companies often demand ways of testing for all these abstract skills, from critical thinking to how to communicate effectively, and become quite cranky when told that's not really an easy thing to do... 

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1 hour ago, Scaly Freak said:

Ironically, once you get into workplace learning, companies often demand ways of testing for all these abstract skills, from critical thinking to how to communicate effectively, and become quite cranky when told that's not really an easy thing to do... 

I have had to take some really stupid personality test kinds of assessments for jobs to which I had applied.

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On 9/15/2020 at 10:35 PM, Scaly Freak said:

how to learn, which is really what "how to evaluate the information in front of you" means.

Unfortunately, not everyone defines learning in this way.  The standard here for learning is being able to cram libraries worth of information inside your head and be able to recall it at a moment's notice.  It's all about the test.  Every time we get a reminder about homework assignments from the teachers it is usually prefaced with "this subject counts for xx% of the overall high school entrance exam so please take this seriously" or something similar.

 

23 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

I have had to take some really stupid personality test kinds of assessments for jobs to which I had applied.

Those tests are a very good indicator of how you will perform on similar personality tests!!!!  

 

15 hours ago, Jupiter said:

Loving the discussions. And the food pics. Following! :) 

Welcome, happy to have you here :) 

 

--------------------------

 

Today went better than I expected.  Wraith was meowling all night so I didn't sleep well.  Again.  After dropping Ghostlet off at school, I really wanted to crawl back in bed but the weather was wonderful so I finally went out to the park.  Pretty much all of my old crew was there and they were surprised to see me.  They all assumed I had gone back the US and couldn't come back.  It was nice to get in my regular workout again, but it was a little disappointing that pretty much all of those guys had made significant improvement since I saw them last but I was still basically right about where I left off.  One of the guys who was about the same level as me on most skills can now do a full front lever and is almost there for human flags.  It probably helps that he has been doing more than 1,000 pushups a day for the last few months  😮 😮 😮  Not bad for a 63 year old dude.

 

In the afternoon I had ambitious plans to do a bunch of productive stuff, but instead I fired up Skyrim and spent the whole day playing that. :D 

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8 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

Unfortunately, not everyone defines learning in this way.  The standard here for learning is being able to cram libraries worth of information inside your head and be able to recall it at a moment's notice.  It's all about the test. 

 

Sadly, a lot of school systems do things this way. One thing that irritates me beyond words is when they turn around and act surprised that memorized information doesn't automatically turns into understanding about how to apply information to a variety of every day situations in an effective way. Urgh.

 

10 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

Those tests are a very good indicator of how you will perform on similar personality tests!!!!  

 

:D 

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23 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

I have had to take some really stupid personality test kinds of assessments for jobs to which I had applied.


My company makes me retake their chosen test every. Time. I move. Departments. Hate hate hate.

 

15 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

One of the guys who was about the same level as me on most skills can now do a full front lever and is almost there for human flags.  It probably helps that he has been doing more than 1,000 pushups a day for the last few months  😮 😮 😮  Not bad for a 63 year old dude.


He sounds like he’s about to snap himself in half!! No wait... that’s just my extreme envy of his progress talking

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1 hour ago, PaulG said:

My company makes me retake their chosen test every. Time. I move. Departments. Hate hate hate.

 

Eeeewww!

 

Are you at least able to keep them to illustrate how your personality has changed through the years? 😛 

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FYI a cat can stay 'in heat' for up to two weeks (depending on the cat) and can start again as early as two weeks after that.

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3 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

One of the guys who was about the same level as me on most skills can now do a full front lever and is almost there for human flags.  It probably helps that he has been doing more than 1,000 pushups a day for the last few months  😮 😮 😮  Not bad for a 63 year old dude.

 

Ok. Wow. Definitely not bad for a guy that age!

 

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Hi!

 

Sounds like you picked a book already, but also gonna echo Sapiens. Super helpful book for trying to look at world history in terms of material causes rather than in terms of names and dates and a sort of 'canon' of understanding.

 

As far as school stuff goes... I don't really know. I think Robinson's got a point that we teach less with an eye toward making a more complete human and more with an eye toward creating a profitable skill set for a laborer. But short of upending the system so that we value human flourishing over human subsistence, I don't know what other choice we have. Reading, writing, and math are useful. Critical theory about these which may induce human development, not so much.

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I wanted to get our female cat fixed. (Ex) husband said no. After one night of cat in heat he was “ get her fixed now!”  Had to wait though until she was out of heat. Good luck!

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38 minutes ago, Kishi said:

As far as school stuff goes... I don't really know. I think Robinson's got a point that we teach less with an eye toward making a more complete human and more with an eye toward creating a profitable skill set for a laborer. But short of upending the system so that we value human flourishing over human subsistence, I don't know what other choice we have. Reading, writing, and math are useful. Critical theory about these which may induce human development, not so much.

 

Well, one of those goals is quantifiable, which means you can tell when you have reached it. That's pretty important for any kind of training. ;) 

 

The socialization aspect of schools is almost more important. For some children, the public school system provides their first exposure to thoughts and individuals outside of their own "kind of people". That's valuable, but also backfires if it's handled poorly.

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43 minutes ago, Kishi said:

 

As far as school stuff goes... I don't really know. I think Robinson's got a point that we teach less with an eye toward making a more complete human and more with an eye toward creating a profitable skill set for a laborer. But short of upending the system so that we value human flourishing over human subsistence, I don't know what other choice we have. Reading, writing, and math are useful. Critical theory about these which may induce human development, not so much.

I don’t think it’s even a question of flourishing vs subsistence (though that’s a whole other interesting conversation), because creative thinking and really any type of talent or skill can be capitalised on these days.. and as he mentioned, who knows what jobs will look like? What kind of skill set will even be profitable in 10 years? Much better to foster a love for learning and encourage unbridled passion for a subject that you find interesting and stop testing memorisation skills. 
 

5 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

 

The socialization aspect of schools is almost more important. For some children, the public school system provides their first exposure to thoughts and individuals outside of their own "kind of people". That's valuable, but also backfires if it's handled poorly.

I disagree. Children learn social skills by copying the behaviour of those around them. It seems like a terrible idea to depend on an environment where they’re surrounded by clueless kids their own age and one teacher for socialisation. Even if you’ve got an awesome teacher. 


 

5 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

One of the guys who was about the same level as me on most skills can now do a full front lever and is almost there for human flags.  It probably helps that he has been doing more than 1,000 pushups a day for the last few months  😮 😮 😮  Not bad for a 63 year old dude.

I understand the frustration- but that’s also rather awesome and hopeful right? Just imagine what you can do in a couple months :) I’m only 32- what can I do when I’m 63?? The possibilities are enticing. 

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8 minutes ago, KB Girl said:

I disagree. Children learn social skills by copying the behaviour of those around them. It seems like a terrible idea to depend on an environment where they’re surrounded by clueless kids their own age and one teacher for socialisation. Even if you’ve got an awesome teacher. 

 

I realized after posting that socialisation is the wrong word.

 

The exact term escapes me right now, but I'm talking about the fact that there are a lot of children who meet people of another ethnicity or skin color for the first time on their first day at school, or who are astonished to learn that it's possible to have two moms instead of a mom and a dad, and other things that they may not discover until they are much older, if they never had an opportunity to go "out into the world" and be exposed to diversity of various kinds. Of course, how much of that they come across at home and in school depends on the home and the school environment, but I think it is a good thing to force children to interact with as much diversity as possible, as early in life as possible. That way, when they grow up and someone tries to tell them something negative about  "those people ", they are a lot less likely to go along with the prejudice because they know all people are people.

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1 minute ago, Scaly Freak said:

That way, when they grow up and someone tries to tell them something negative about  "those people ", they are a lot less likely to go along with the prejudice because they know all people are people.

That would be nice but I’m really doubtful it works that way... simply having seem different kinds of people at school doesn’t guarantee anything- especially if there goes a narrative along with it that’s undesirable.

and also.. come on... my 3 year old knows you can have 2 moms and that girls can like girls and she has the basics of different religions down and different languages and different cultures and she’s interacted with people of different skin colours. 
I realise not all kids have decent parents and that school will always play a role there- it’s just not necessary. 

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1 minute ago, KB Girl said:

and also.. come on... my 3 year old knows you can have 2 moms and that girls can like girls and she has the basics of different religions down and different languages and different cultures and she’s interacted with people of different skin colours. 

 

Sadly that's not the norm any more than retaining a lack of prejudice is. But I still think it's a positive in the end.

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22 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

Well, one of those goals is quantifiable, which means you can tell when you have reached it. That's pretty important for any kind of training. ;)

 

I mean, agreed, but

 

15 minutes ago, KB Girl said:

Much better to foster a love for learning and encourage unbridled passion for a subject that you find interesting and stop testing memorisation skills. 

 

Again, I have to confess, I don't really have any bright ideas about education and how to improve it. On the one hand, I tend to see US education as a state-sponsored long-term accreditation program. You don't need the degree to be an educated person, but a degree signals a certain kind of education which is useful to people who can pay you for the work that your education allows you to do.

 

OTOH, maybe that's good enough. One does not flourish without subsistence, and maybe a person's flourishing is tied to subjective factors that the system couldn't account for or facilitate anyway.

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