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15 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

This is all too familiar, so if you have tips please share! It's not even procrastination, it's like time relations sometimes break down for me. Though sometimes it is just procrastination.

 

Constantly having to power through is so exhausting. I feel like the idea of willpower as a muscle that needs to be strengthened is so overrated. It's better to focus it on important things.

I'd say it's more like a battery that needs to be recharged. 

And when there are pandemics going on or other things it just drains a whole lot faster. And when you don't get enough sleep or maybe don't eat enough then it doesn't recharge very well and you're always walking around half empty. 

In that context using some to save some power in the future makes perfect sense.

 

On 12/31/2020 at 6:11 PM, Rurik Harrgath said:

This is the scienciest science that has ever scienced.  Unfortunately I'm just enough lactose intolerant that ice cream is rarely worth it for me, no matter how much I love it, so I feign contentment more often than I'd like to admit.  Their salted caramel and cookie dough aren't the worst ever at least.

Ben & Jerry's vegan ice cream my friend. I recommend the brownie version. I actually prefer it over the real stuff, it's brilliant.

 

2 hours ago, Harriet said:

 

Yes, I used to have two states: NOPE and Maybe Very Reluctantly. I have added a third mode: I Guess I Could Try That.

 

I hope it will succeed.

❤️ 

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Main Quest: becoming a decent kettlebell lifter and a great coach

Current challenge: It's all future KB Girl's problem

my instagram - my gym's instagram

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12 hours ago, Adash5000 said:

I don't know if this is good or bad advice, worked for me. I find when I am on the computer time just slips away, the internet is a procrastinators playground. I have put an evening cutoff on the computer and a list of tasks I try to accomplish while I am off. If that is hard to implement I use a computer application called Cold Turkey, you can set it to shutdown your computer automatically at the cutoff time.  Won't work for everyone but it's been working the last month for me. Maybe I will report back in a year for true proof of concept.

It's great advice, personally I completely rely on the app Freedom for some things. In particular certain online puzzles that I sometimes get into obsessive spirals over... 😬

 

5 hours ago, Harriet said:

Yes, I used to have two states: NOPE and Maybe Very Reluctantly. I have added a third mode: I Guess I Could Try That.

 

I hope it will succeed.

I'm positive it will!

 

2 hours ago, KB Girl said:

I'd say it's more like a battery that needs to be recharged. 

And when there are pandemics going on or other things it just drains a whole lot faster. And when you don't get enough sleep or maybe don't eat enough then it doesn't recharge very well and you're always walking around half empty. 

In that context using some to save some power in the future makes perfect sense.

Much better analogy!

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5 hours ago, KB Girl said:

I'd say it's more like a battery that needs to be recharged. 

And when there are pandemics going on or other things it just drains a whole lot faster. And when you don't get enough sleep or maybe don't eat enough then it doesn't recharge very well and you're always walking around half empty. 

In that context using some to save some power in the future makes perfect sense

In the analogy of growing will power I think it's like we have a certain max charge for life. But as we gain aptitude in skill and ability the resistance to action diminishes and so action becomes easier and we use less will power for those tasks. And by limiting ourselves to fewer activities we have more will power to spare for the things we really care about. I think all in all we don't grow our will power over time but instead we learn to manage it better!

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16 hours ago, Harriet said:

For me, once I get started, it's often way easier and more rewarding than I thought it would be. For reasons, I overestimate the difficulty of tasks and underestimate how interesting or enjoyable they might be. So it's not realllly about powering through awfulness for me, at least not most of the time. It's about getting out of inertia/procrastination to have some good things that I value in my day, and hopefully over time rewiring my brain so I'm more automatically and happily action oriented.

 

I totally recognize this. I think those bad estimates are very common for people facing a wide variety of things. And when you mention inertia, there's this thing in ADHD called task inertia, which makes switching or starting tasks difficult.

 

How are you approaching this rewiring? I'd like to hear more strategies.

 

16 hours ago, Harriet said:

I'm trying to weaken the irrational "I can't do this" or "I don't want to do this, so I won't" response to things I actually DO want to do. I want to replace it with a stronger and more rational response that's more like "Easy, let's go!" Or even "Yay, time to write!". I just have to rewire those associations.

 

This in particular would be helpful. I have certain tasks I have a very strong negative response to, and I've been wondering how to rewire that particular task response, so it's more useful. (And, as you say, things I actively want to do, where the automatic response makes it harder to do them.)

 

16 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

At home there are no rules. I'll look at my plants and think "I should water them soon" and before I know it it's been a month and they're dead. I've tried schedules and reminders but somehow they all become "later" in my head.

 

Yes, this. Very easy to do. And not helped, I think, by childhood experiences where we were criticised for the now/later issue; it's easier for social cues to feel judgmental. But I think the nonjudgmental social cues might be more a part of work than we know. Heck, they're probably more a part of being basically human than we know.

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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12 hours ago, KB Girl said:

I'd say it's more like a battery that needs to be recharged. 

And when there are pandemics going on or other things it just drains a whole lot faster. And when you don't get enough sleep or maybe don't eat enough then it doesn't recharge very well and you're always walking around half empty. 

In that context using some to save some power in the future makes perfect sense.

 

This is a common model of willpower, that it drains and refills. I've seen criticism of this model, too, and I think the truth may be in between. It sure is the case that energy, both physical and mental, is finite, and requires rest to get more. And whatever willpower is, if it's a thing at all, I'm sure it needs some mental and physical energy.

 

6 hours ago, Adash5000 said:

But as we gain aptitude in skill and ability the resistance to action diminishes and so action becomes easier and we use less will power for those tasks.

 

Those who have heard my meditation-as-training-mental-actions talk, which I've been giving a lot lately, know I feel mental behaviour can be trained to become more instinctive and natural, and require less of a cost from us to perform. So I think this is probably a thing. The difficult part is finding a way to train mental actions.

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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28 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

Those who have heard my meditation-as-training-mental-actions talk, which I've been giving a lot lately, know I feel mental behaviour can be trained to become more instinctive and natural, and require less of a cost from us to perform. So I think this is probably a thing. The difficult part is finding a way to train mental actions.

Exactly! meditation is exercise for the brain. It reduces mental friction so you expend less energy on mental tasks. I imagine will power is akin to lactic acid building up in your muscles when you work out. Do you have a link to this talk you speak of?

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2 minutes ago, Adash5000 said:

Do you have a link to this talk you speak of?

 

I do not, but I've dropped the lecture in at least two threads this challenge alone... @18ckwere you one of the victims?

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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Week 0 Day 6

 

Guys. I  slept for 15 hours last night. I can't even. (Sadly, all light sleep, not the good restorative deep stuff, according to my fitness tracker. But I'll take it, with a side order of WTH Was That.)

 

On the downside, minor dehydration headache. So I made a full thermal carafe of hot tea, and will get two liters of that into me ASAP.

 

Star Trek Drinking GIF

 

I don't know if challenge things will happen today, but they certainly won't if I don't keep them in mind, so:

  • Walk
  • Meditate
  • Study
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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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18 hours ago, Harriet said:

 

Yeah, starting is the big thing. For me, once I get started, it's often way easier and more rewarding than I thought it would be. For reasons, I overestimate the difficulty of tasks and underestimate how interesting or enjoyable they might be.

 

Last year I started getting meal kits because I wanted to eat healthier. After I improved my skills in the kitchen I actually really started enjoying it. I kept on getting that resistance towards action though. I still do and whenever I do get around to cook the meal kit I always end up finding it enjoyable and relaxing. For whatever reason though there is still some invisible force field on that activity which make it hard to pursue. Not sure that will ever go away.

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3 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

 

I do not, but I've dropped the lecture in at least two threads this challenge alone... @18ckwere you one of the victims?

Um... Well not a literal talk, if that's what you mean. You have written about that kind of thing in answer to something I said in Fearless's December thread (starting here and a follow-up shortly after)

If there's a video/audio of you delivering an actual talk about it in more detail, I'd be interested to see/hear it too. 

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5 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

 

I totally recognize this. I think those bad estimates are very common for people facing a wide variety of things. And when you mention inertia, there's this thing in ADHD called task inertia, which makes switching or starting tasks difficult.

 

How are you approaching this rewiring? I'd like to hear more strategies.

 

Well, a few things.

1 there's a physiological component: I have to take care of sleep, food and exercise if I don't want a serious penalty to my thought/emotional processes on this matter. I am also doing things like vit D and lightbox to give the depression fewer chances to come back.

2. The rewiring itself is done with CBT, a specific set of techniques I can say more about/recommend a book on if you like. I did practice CBT a lot, a while back, and still know how to "talk back" to irrational thoughts. The hard part is noticing them and spotting the opportunity to intervene before the moment has passed. That's a matter of intention and practice. A friend called me and said something that seemingly primed my brain to notice--he said he never regrets exercising after the fact, but he has trouble connecting that with his thoughts beforehand. Anyway, something just clicked and I've been trying to connect the before and after by collecting evidence of how good I feel afterwards. So I don't just run, I run and then say to myself, "I like this buzz. I'll remember this." Next time I say "I don't feel like it right now, but I bet I won't regret it." Or even just "I could just get out the clothes."

3. I am sandwiching my days with journalling, in which I tell me what I have to do for the day, and try to visualise it happening. Sometimes I do a couple of extra things because I know I don't like to put zeros on the chart or report to you nerds that I didn't do it.

4. I have been praying to a god of war for resolve, valour, and persistence. These prayers involve an invocation in which I recite the virtues of said god, and visualize how tomorrow would go if I demonstrated said virtues.

 

5 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

This in particular would be helpful. I have certain tasks I have a very strong negative response to, and I've been wondering how to rewire that particular task response, so it's more useful. (And, as you say, things I actively want to do, where the automatic response makes it harder to do them.)

 

CBT, I think. You have to notice the irrational thought, talk back to it rationally, do the task, and deliberately notice how you feel about it during and after (collecting emotional evidence that will make your response slightly different next time). Then you do this dozens of times over weeks and months, and the rational talk, which feels artificial at first, gains the weight of all that emotional evidence and starts to not merely be true, but to feel true as well.

 

3 hours ago, Adash5000 said:

Last year I started getting meal kits because I wanted to eat healthier. After I improved my skills in the kitchen I actually really started enjoying it. I kept on getting that resistance towards action though. I still do and whenever I do get around to cook the meal kit I always end up finding it enjoyable and relaxing. For whatever reason though there is still some invisible force field on that activity which make it hard to pursue. Not sure that will ever go away.

 

Yeah, learning to cook and learning that it's not so hard has been one of my major wins in the last few years, too. Good for you! But of course, some resistance still remains on days when I'm tired.

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Let cheese and bread and mead crowd out our secret desires for power and domination.

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39 minutes ago, Harriet said:

Anyway, something just clicked and I've been trying to connect the before and after by collecting evidence of how good I feel afterwards. So I don't just run, I run and then say to myself, "I like this buzz. I'll remember this." Next time I say "I don't feel like it right now, but I bet I won't regret it." Or even just "I could just get out the clothes."

 

This is interesting, trying to make a bigger mental record of the reward for the habit. The last one is what I sometimes do with the five-minute tasks. You don't seriously expect to do much in five minutes, so it makes you say things like, "I'll just get out the stuff, and work on it during the next pass". (And often I'm wrong about how long five minutes is.)

 

CBT and I don't get along, but I'd imagine there are some mindfulness-based alternatives I would get along with.

 

42 minutes ago, Harriet said:

I am sandwiching my days with journalling, in which I tell me what I have to do for the day, and try to visualise it happening. Sometimes I do a couple of extra things because I know I don't like to put zeros on the chart or report to you nerds that I didn't do it.

4. I have been praying to a god of war for resolve, valour, and persistence. These prayers involve an invocation in which I recite the virtues of said god, and visualize how tomorrow would go if I demonstrated said virtues.

 

Visualisation is a very effective technique, and I'm so bad at it when it comes to myself. I can visualise anything or anyone else.

 

44 minutes ago, Harriet said:

You have to notice the irrational thought, talk back to it rationally, do the task, and deliberately notice how you feel about it during and after (collecting emotional evidence that will make your response slightly different next time). Then you do this dozens of times over weeks and months, and the rational talk, which feels artificial at first, gains the weight of all that emotional evidence and starts to not merely be true, but to feel true as well.

 

You underestimate how much I hate doing my dishes. ;) No, you're right, and I do like them being done, which is hopefully enough. I'm really struggling to get into the zen meditative cleaning thing with them.

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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24 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

 

This is interesting, trying to make a bigger mental record of the reward for the habit. The last one is what I sometimes do with the five-minute tasks. You don't seriously expect to do much in five minutes, so it makes you say things like, "I'll just get out the stuff, and work on it during the next pass". (And often I'm wrong about how long five minutes is.)

 

CBT and I don't get along, but I'd imagine there are some mindfulness-based alternatives I would get along with.

 

Oh, really? Why is that?  I was literally only thinking of the practice of noting irrational thoughts and talking back to them. I did it myself with a book that helped me identify common emotional-logical fallacies and suggested responses.

 

24 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

Visualisation is a very effective technique, and I'm so bad at it when it comes to myself. I can visualise anything or anyone else.

 

Any special reason? The visualisation doesn't have to be perfect, I think. You can even just imagine some disembodied hands doing the tasks like in a video game.

 

24 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

You underestimate how much I hate doing my dishes. ;) No, you're right, and I do like them being done, which is hopefully enough. I'm really struggling to get into the zen meditative cleaning thing with them.

 

Ha. It definitely works better for things I irrationally avoid than for things I rationally avoid because they suck.

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Let cheese and bread and mead crowd out our secret desires for power and domination.

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4 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

You underestimate how much I hate doing my dishes. ;) No, you're right, and I do like them being done, which is hopefully enough. I'm really struggling to get into the zen meditative cleaning thing with them.

Dishes are the absolute worst. It's the only thing I miss my last ex for. :D 

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9 hours ago, 18ck said:

Um... Well not a literal talk, if that's what you mean. You have written about that kind of thing in answer to something I said in Fearless's December thread (starting here and a follow-up shortly after)

If there's a video/audio of you delivering an actual talk about it in more detail, I'd be interested to see/hear it too. 

Awesome thanks. It was very well put. I have been doing meditation on and off for years, I need to get back into it consistently

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7 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

You underestimate how much I hate doing my dishes. ;) No, you're right, and I do like them being done, which is hopefully enough. I'm really struggling to get into the zen meditative cleaning thing with them.

I started realizing that the clean kitchen outweighed a messy space for me. Even if I don't get into a zen meditative cleaning state, the clean kitchen helps me get into one for other things and so its worth it for me. I made a rule for myself that I have to clean for 20min a day and after the timer goes off I allow myself to stop even if there is still a mess.

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One possible use for a sizeable volume of brandy is plum pudding. You pour brandy over it and ignite it. I'm sure you could find a modified plum pudding recipe to fit your macros. Flaming plum pudding would go perfectly with ice cream. :D 

 

On 1/3/2021 at 2:18 AM, sarakingdom said:

You underestimate how much I hate doing my dishes. ;) No, you're right, and I do like them being done, which is hopefully enough. I'm really struggling to get into the zen meditative cleaning thing with them.

 

Could you reframe the task to be moving my hands in hot scented water while I listen to something enjoyable? The dish washing would be an unintentional byproduct of soaking your hands in a nice hot bath. With extra bonus appearance of clear counter space.

 

I know that my mental hurdles are different and usually easier than yours. I found myself reluctant to get out the nice warm bed to go exercise in the cold family room. I solved that by putting out a pile of cosy warm clothes to put on over my exercise/sleeping clothes. That point of resistance was simple to address.  Maybe you can find some points that can be reframed?

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10 minutes ago, Mistr said:

I found myself reluctant to get out the nice warm bed to go exercise in the cold family room. I solved that by putting out a pile of cosy warm clothes to put on over my exercise/sleeping clothes.

Wait a second, I want to know how this works :) You prep your workout + cosy clothes the night before. You get out of bed, put on both, and take the cosy clothes off when you warm up from the workout? 

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1 hour ago, Mistr said:

One possible use for a sizeable volume of brandy is plum pudding. You pour brandy over it and ignite it. I'm sure you could find a modified plum pudding recipe to fit your macros. Flaming plum pudding would go perfectly with ice cream. :D 

 

That would make a virtue out of the overstepped ginger and orange. That might be tempting. Though if I'm not allowed candles, I'm probably not allowed flaming puddings. ;)

 

1 hour ago, Mistr said:

Could you reframe the task to be moving my hands in hot scented water while I listen to something enjoyable?

 

Hot water scented with horrible filthy food waste. Blech. Nice try, though.

 

1 hour ago, Mistr said:

With extra bonus appearance of clear counter space.

 

I do like the clear counter and shiny sink...

 

1 hour ago, Mistr said:

I solved that by putting out a pile of cosy warm clothes to put on over my exercise/sleeping clothes. That point of resistance was simple to address.  Maybe you can find some points that can be reframed?

 

I agree, there has to be something.

 

Man, cleaning in general is just all the things that the ADHD brain is super bad at. I'm awesome at making things, but cleaning them...

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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6 minutes ago, Harriet said:

Artisanal hand-stirred soapy soup.

 

I'm alllllllmost getting there with "something something bring order to chaos something entropy something heat death of the universe", but it's a work in progress.

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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Whoa, I need to make some real food. I've been eating dark chocolate, clementines, and roasted chestnuts. I'm like a walking Christmas elf here, digging into the stockings for lunch.

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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Week 1 Day 1

  • Walk
  • Meditate
  • Study

Logical things to do:

  1. Order groceries
  2. Make food
  3. Hydrate
  4. Make a weekly schedule
  5. Clean things

The "cleaning things" picture:

Star Trek Spock GIF

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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I do need you to know that 1) I finally was able  to watch Hogswatch during Hogswatch and 2) you have four pages before now I’m 100% not reading aside from your starting post. 😜

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RisenPhoenix, the Entish Aikidoka

Challenge: RisenPhoenix Turns to Ash

 

"The essence of koryu [...is] you offer your loyalty to something that you choose to regard as greater than yourself so that you will, someday, be able to offer service to something that truly is transcendent." ~ Ellis Amdur, Old School

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12 minutes ago, RisenPhoenix said:

I do need you to know that 1) I finally was able  to watch Hogswatch during Hogswatch and 2) you have four pages before now I’m 100% not reading aside from your starting post. 😜

 

1) I'm both proud and pleased for you, and 2) are you sure, cuz last challenge there were two pages just on cannibalism.

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I felt like I could run forever, like I could smell the wind and feel the grass under my feet, and just run forever.

Current Challenge: #24 - Mrs. Cosmopolite Challenge

Past: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6,  #7#8, #9#10, #11a & #11b, #12, #13, #14, #15, #16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21, #22, #23

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