The Movie Club: 80s Trek

[sarakingdom]

A Star Trek fan who has never seen the 80s movies? This cannot be allowed to go on!

 

 

We will be watching Star Trek II, III, IV, and possibly VI on Fridays starting June 26th. (It's weird how the movies jump from IV to VI. I wonder why they never made a Star Trek V.)

 

The rules:

• Watch on your own time and join in the discussion. (This means you can pick your own definition of Friday to be Fridayish, if you choose. It's Friday somewhere for 48 hours.)
• No untagged spoilers for future movies in the viewing sequence. At least one viewer has never seen them. Make sure they're behind cuts and marked with which movies they have spoilers for.
• There is no Star Trek V.
• Spoilers for the current week's movie are embargoed until 6pm EST/11PM BST on Friday.

 

By request, the specific spoiler embargo dates:

• Wrath of Khan is fair game by 6PM EST on June 26th; any discussion of later films in the Wrath of Khan discussion should  be spoilered.
• Search for Spock is fair game by 6PM EST on July 3rd; any discussion of later films in the Search for Spock discussion should be spoilered.
• Voyage Home is fair game by 6PM EST on July 10th; any discussion of later films in the Voyage Home discussion should be spoilered.
• Star Trek V does not exist.
• Whatever the Sixth One Is Called is fair game by 6PM EST on July 17th; any discussion of later films in the Whatever the Sixth One Is Called discussion should be spoilered.

 

Basically, the purpose is to let people who've never seen them get a fair shot at them before the people who've memorised them geek out over their favorite scenes and ongoing storylines. So the precise time is a guideline, particularly if you're a first-time viewer. If you're watching for the first time in Europe at 8pm or 9pm and have a reaction post, don't sweat the spoiler embargo too hard - it's there to let you do that freely before everyone else jumps in, and we just needed to pick something to average the time zones.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

I've seen the movies so many times I can rewatch them in my mind without the need of playback devices. I will, however, try to watch them in the traditional method at the appointed times. 

[Scaly Freak]

Suggestion: Spoiler warning in the thread title?

 

And as we start to watch, it will be easier for me if there is a date on the spoiler embargo for each movie, please. If not, I will end up putting everything I post in this thread in spoiler tags, and that's just a matter of time before it starts to irritate people. 

 

Live long and prosper!

[Harriet]

Hello! I found the thread!

 

On 6/20/2021 at 3:03 PM, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

I've seen the movies so many times I can rewatch them in my mind without the need of playback devices. I will, however, try to watch them in the traditional method at the appointed times. 

 

Do they play back obediently in the correct sequence, or do they tend to skip to the parts with Spock?

[sarakingdom]

On 6/21/2021 at 12:42 PM, Scaly Freak said:

Suggestion: Spoiler warning in the thread title?

 

And as we start to watch, it will be easier for me if there is a date on the spoiler embargo for each movie, please. If not, I will end up putting everything I post in this thread in spoiler tags, and that's just a matter of time before it starts to irritate people. 

 

Live long and prosper!

 

I have put specific dates on the spoiler embargoes to make the algorithm more clear. Essentially, that week's movie and anything prior to it are in the clear by an average expected viewing time for the EU and US (I mean, I'm not gonna be ultra strict on the times, I just want people who've never seen it to have a reasonable chance of going in without the full plot), and anything scheduled for a future week is something we're trying to preserve the surprise on.

 

I've declined to add a spoiler warning to the title, because I think a movie club thread with viewings implies discussion of the movies, and these are forty-year-old films. If people are still set on not being spoiled, the very first post in the thread announces there will be spoilers appearing.
 

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

2 hours ago, Harriet said:

 

Do they play back obediently in the correct sequence, or do they tend to skip to the parts with Spock?

Happily, both  

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

these are forty-year-old films

[Scaly Freak]

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

I've declined to add a spoiler warning to the title, because I think a movie club thread with viewings implies discussion of the movies, and these are forty-year-old films. If people are still set on not being spoiled, the very first post in the thread announces there will be spoilers appearing.

 

That is an excellent point, except for the age of the movies, because there's always someone seeing (reading, playing, etc) it for the first time.  And thanks for adding dates!

 

Movie number six is The Undiscovered Country, by the way. Since I suggested including it, I feel compelled to provide the name as well.  

[sarakingdom]

2 hours ago, Harriet said:

Do they play back obediently in the correct sequence, or do they tend to skip to the parts with Spock?

 

I am so looking forward to your reaction posts.

 

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

these are forty-year-old films

 

13 minutes ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

 

I know, man. The same distance from us as, like, WWII films were from these movies. But take heart; some are... only 35 years old?

 

5 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

except for the age of the movies, because there's always someone seeing (reading, playing, etc) it for the first time

 

This is true, but I'm a believer that there's a statute of limitations on these things. I don't feel it's reasonable to ask people not to spoil the fact that Vader is Luke's father. We're only doing it this time because we're doing this watchathon specifically for someone who has never seen them, and also we will never again in our lifetimes have the experience of someone seeing the Star Trek films for the first time.

 

9 minutes ago, Scaly Freak said:

Movie number six is The Undiscovered Country, by the way. Since I suggested including it, I feel compelled to provide the name as well.  

 

I thought it probably was, but that also seemed a reasonable title for the plot of the one that doesn't exist, so I couldn't be absolutely sure.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

I know, man. The same distance from us as, like, WWII films were from these movies. But take heart; some are... only 35 years old?

 

The Undiscovered Country was released in 1991 and is therefore only 30 years old. That's the number to which I'm going to cling.

[sarakingdom]

10 minutes ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

The Undiscovered Country was released in 1991 and is therefore only 30 years old. That's the number to which I'm going to cling.

 

Yes. Wrath of Khan is thirty years old.

 

[Scaly Freak]

6 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

I thought it probably was, but that also seemed a reasonable title for the plot of the one that doesn't exist, so I couldn't be absolutely sure.

 

Fair enough. The movie that doesn't exist must not be named.

[sarakingdom]

1 minute ago, Scaly Freak said:

Fair enough. The movie that doesn't exist must not be named.

 

It would be an uncomfortable paradox; if I accidentally used a nonexistent title for the 6th film, it would open up the question of whether there is actually a fifth movie or whether the sixth one doesn't exist.

[Scaly Freak]

19 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

 

It would be an uncomfortable paradox; if I accidentally used a nonexistent title for the 6th film, it would open up the question of whether there is actually a fifth movie or whether the sixth one doesn't exist.

 

Oh no, the sixth one most definitely exists. It has too much Spock not to. But it could mislead someone into believing there indeed is a fifth movie, which in turn could lead that person to start searching for Star Trek V, and who knows what kind of horrors they might find?

[sarakingdom]

2 hours ago, Scaly Freak said:

Oh no, the sixth one most definitely exists. It has too much Spock not to. But it could mislead someone into believing there indeed is a fifth movie, which in turn could lead that person to start searching for Star Trek V, and who knows what kind of horrors they might find?

 

Sometimes, when the wind comes from the southwest and the moon is waning, a haunting and papery disembodied voice can be heard in the leaves of the trees, whispering "whyyddddoesgggoddnneeeedastaaaaaaaaaaarshiiiiiiiiiip", and the wise and sober residents of the town rush home, count their children and pets, and lock the door, grateful for their narrow escape.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

9 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

 

Sometimes, when the wind comes from the southwest and the moon is waning, a haunting and papery disembodied voice can be heard in the leaves of the trees, whispering "whyyddddoesgggoddnneeeedastaaaaaaaaaaarshiiiiiiiiiip", and the wise and sober residents of the town rush home, count their children and pets, and lock the door, grateful for their narrow escape.

They protect themselves with the chant "Not in Front of the Klingons"

[sarakingdom]

Here we go!

 

 

[sarakingdom]

This was an interesting rewatch for me for two reasons: first, I haven't seen it since I was twelve (I hated it), and second, I maaaaybe watched every Fantasy Island episode on YouTube during lockdown. (Look, we all resorted to desperate measures to stay sane.)

 

 

First, I think we can all agree Ricardo Montalban has been deeply underrated his entire career. The guy was too Mexican for Hollywood, but he's seriously good.

 

Second, it is better than I remembered. (Honestly, I was so grossed out by the earworms and everything after that when I was eleven or twelve that it was like you'd just put me in front of some cheap horror flick or something. I was not having it. I wasn't prepared for evil genius with a penchant for cruelty. Now I'm just conflicted because Khan is too hot and too thoughtful to be a warped evil eugenicist.)

 

Third, it's a really strong first half. Really well done. Everything about the first half works pretty well.

 

However, fourth... the climax of the film. I know the plot of this film. I know exactly what happens in the final scenes. And I still couldn't follow what was going on twice. When I literally knew what was happening, they managed to lose me. Spock leaving the bridge was not well contextualised. It's unclear why he does. It's the easier one to follow, it does gradually become clear. They do circle back around to the power problem and the importance of it. So that's okay. They just made me wait. Maybe the problem was actually that I did know with was going on, and I was looking for information before we got it, when I was supposed to be impressed that Spock was two steps ahead.

 

The second time, though, still makes no sense to me, and contains some spoilers for Search for Spock:

Spoiler

The Genesis planet. Ricardo Khanalban activates the Genesis sparklies, but before doing anything with it, self-destructs the ship. In a nebula. Without planets in it. Then Spock gets launched onto a planet somewhere on their trip home. That's all there is on screen. So where on earth are we supposed to gather that the Genesis device encountered a planet and terraformed it and that's where they left Spock? None of those things actually happen. Did they genuinely not decide that happened until the next film?

 

They really underused Sulu and especially Uhura. But I'm pleased they gave Chekov a real role. He's pretty good when you give him something to do..

 

It isn't a complex conflict, but it is a strongly psychological one, and the psychological themes of aging, loss of confidence, and facing death are an interesting frame to it.

 

Spock has really matured and mellowed since TOS in this film. It's sort of great.

 

So much better than I remembered, but IMO not as good as its fan favorite status. I think it's the weakest of these three films structurally and in complexity. I suspect its reputation is built mostly on the shock of the ending.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

In a deleted scene you find out that after the training cruise Sulu is supposed to be given command of the new Excelsior. Sulu got shafted through the movies because Shatner was a Jerk and especially insecure about Takei. Sulu was supposed to have a much bigger role in the sixth Movie but Shatner's ego was too fragile to have another Captain on screen as heroic as Kirk so a lot of Sulu Excelsior scenes got re written for Kirk and the Enterprise. 

 

Twok is what happens when people set out to telk a story rather than show a spectacle. Kirk having to confront aging was brilliant, and Nicolas Meyer was having none of Shatner's over acting. He made Shat do take after take Tull Shat got tired and actually acted, rather than doing an impression of himself doing Kirk.

 

Captain Terrell and the whole Reliant crew was superbly written and acted.

 

Montalban was better than we all deserve. DeForest Kelley's Bones is a joy to watch, especially in this movie. 

[Harriet]

11 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

First, I think we can all agree Ricardo Montalban has been deeply underrated his entire career. The guy was too Mexican for Hollywood, but he's seriously good.

 

I don't know him, but he was good! He was a very sad character in the end, spitting his last breath in hatred (as he said), pursuing Kirk into death.

 

11 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

However, fourth... the climax of the film. I know the plot of this film. I know exactly what happens in the final scenes. And I still couldn't follow what was going on twice.

Ah. I thought I knew what was happening? They needed warp drive to get away from the genesis explosion, which would reshape all living matter in favour of its own matrix (thereby presumably transforming them into algae or protozoa something). But the engine was munted thanks to the attacks. Scotty couldn't get in to fix it because of the radiation. But Spock realised he could, and quietly left the bridge without informing Kirk. There was a moment in which you saw him make that decision, I think.

Anyway, my thoughts:

Yay! I liked it. But there was too much Kirk and not enough Spock. I demand more Spock. I am also 100% confident that further films cannot exist without Spock. Therefore, I am not grieving his death. I predict that he will return in the next film, transformed by genesis. The explanation will emphasise that he is very different and altered and not at all the same (because of the transformation) but in fact the film writers will forget about this quite quickly and we will be back to enjoying good old Spock in no time.

 

I liked Saviik. A female vulcan with almost zero sexism weirdness. It was great.

I liked the twist with Checkov and the other Captain turning on Kirk even after confessing to him (though it was foreseeable since Khan had promised that the brain worm grows in size until the person goes mad. We had no reason to think that Checkov and whatshisname had been freed from their creatures prematurely). I was somewhat unsurprised that Kirk had a child, and unconvinced by the emotional impact of this fact. There was too much Kirk and not enough Spock. Did I say that already? The uniforms and sets were delightfully updated and looked like they cost a bit more. There were scenes where I noticed the absence of music, which I think is a stylistic difference to modern films. It made the whole thing feel more... minimalist? Not bad, just different and unusual to my overstimulated Star Trek Discovery-molded mind.

All in all, a decent story and enjoyable experience. Needs more Spock, though.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

Those uniforms, called the "Mean Maroon" uniform bu the Fandom, are my favorite in all of Trek. If ever I were to cosplay, it would be in a mean maroon uniform. 

[Harriet]

36 minutes ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

Those uniforms, called the "Mean Maroon" uniform bu the Fandom, are my favorite in all of Trek. If ever I were to cosplay, it would be in a mean maroon uniform. 

 

It's a good uniform. I'd dress in that. With a bloody hand print on the folded over white part of the double breast, perhaps?

[sarakingdom]

4 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

Montalban was better than we all deserve. DeForest Kelley's Bones is a joy to watch, especially in this movie. 

 

Dee Kelley is definitely a joy to watch. Montalban should have been a huge star, man.

 

4 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

Kirk having to confront aging was brilliant, and Nicolas Meyer was having none of Shatner's over acting. He made Shat do take after take Tull Shat got tired and actually acted, rather than doing an impression of himself doing Kirk.

 

That's brilliant. Especially since "tired" is the correct note for most of his scenes. I cannot imagine he was happy with having to confront aging, though.

 

How on earth did Nimoy get him to act? I can't imagine they kept pulling the same trick.

 

That dude, though, he's such an added cost to everyone's job. Carrying his ego is expensive to everyone around him. Case in point:

 

4 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

Sulu got shafted through the movies because Shatner was a Jerk and especially insecure about Takei. Sulu was supposed to have a much bigger role in the sixth Movie but Shatner's ego was too fragile to have another Captain on screen as heroic as Kirk so a lot of Sulu Excelsior scenes got re written for Kirk and the Enterprise. 

 

He did that in the show, too. Took scenes from the junior actors for himself; even when they had lines, he demanded the camera be on his reaction instead of on them. It's kind of sad, he probably stunted a few careers that way. I get why Takei is so pissed off with the guy.

[sarakingdom]

59 minutes ago, Harriet said:

I don't know him, but he was good! He was a very sad character in the end, spitting his last breath in hatred (as he said), pursuing Kirk into death.

 

He really does put a lot of humanity into a character who is so inhuman. You've got his backstory in the TOS episode Space Seed, where he and his people are exiled with a female crewmember who falls in love with him. This whole movie, he's wearing a necklace with a broken Starfleet logo that was presumably hers. You, and even he, know this is an irrational obsession with Kirk, but it's the only thing that still gives him pleasure. His last lines are from Moby Dick (which you see a copy of in the Botany Bay's first scene). He knows he's Ahab chasing his fatal obsession with his white whale, and he doesn't care.

 

Ricardo Montalban started out in 1940s Hollywood as the handsome Latin lover type, dancing with Cyd Charisse and singing with Esther Williams. He was married to the sister of some big 1940s star. He was basically trained to be a 1940s leading man, and he's good at it, but he's Mexican. He's got a strong accent, and is proudly Mexican, so never tried to lose it. And that meant he basically had a short career as the exciting guy you don't marry in the end because he isn't a suburban American dude, and when the fashion for Latin men was over, all he really had was character roles as "ethnic part of the week" on TV. He was Native American in Bonanza, Southeast Asian on Star Trek, and so on. Lots of guest parts.

 

And finally in the late 70s, TV realized he was amazing and cheap, and ethnic diversity was opening up on TV, and they gave him the lead in Fantasy Island. It was garbage, but it was popular garbage that ran for years and finally gave the guy enough of a career for financial security. It was actually at its peak when  they made this in 1982, which I'm certain was part of the reason they returned to Khan: Ricardo Montalban had become a household name on TV, as big or bigger than Star Trek, so it gave them a whole second audience to grab.

 

So, sadly, he's never had a role that he wasn't too good for. He had a sixty‐year career, but went from paying his dues to cult favorite elder celebrity cameos without ever really getting anything that showed what he could actually do on between.

 

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

Ah. I thought I knew what was happening? They needed warp drive to get away from the genesis explosion, which would reshape all living matter in favour of its own matrix (thereby presumably transforming them into algae or protozoa something). But the engine was munted thanks to the attacks. Scotty couldn't get in to fix it because of the radiation. But Spock realised he could, and quietly left the bridge without informing Kirk. There was a moment in which you saw him make that decision, I think.

 

I will have to watch it again. I confess, I had a lot going on shortly before that time, what with groceries arriving and watching it with a friend over the internet. I may have missed something in favor of ice cream bars and commenting on Ricardo Montalban. Because, come on, ice cream bars and Ricardo Montalban.

 

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

But there was too much Kirk and not enough Spock.

 

This is very true.

 

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

I liked Saviik. A female vulcan with almost zero sexism weirdness. It was great.

 

She's too... pink. For a Vulcan, I mean. But yes. Yeah, these films do way, way better on the sexism weirdness front. They honestly do quite well, apart from underusing Uhura here, which is at least sexism by omission rather than commission. The Carol Marcus role was actually fairly well done.

 

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

There was too much Kirk and not enough Spock. Did I say that already?

 

It is still true. It actually surprised me how totally the film focused on Kirk. There were a few character moments for others earlier in the film, but then it really was a Kirk story.

 

1 hour ago, Harriet said:

All in all, a decent story and enjoyable experience. Needs more Spock, though.

 

True. Yay, I am pleased your first Trek film went well!

[Harriet]

2 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

 

He really does put a lot of humanity into a character who is so inhuman. You've got his backstory in the TOS episode Space Seed, where he and his people are exiled with a female crewmember who falls in love with him.

 

I remember. They found him wrapped in a glittery gold fabric and he wooed the susceptible lady by being masterful and overbearing. His dark eye makeup and tan made me think he was supposed to be middle eastern. I had no idea the actor was Mexican and was unable to place the accent, though I really liked it.

 

2 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

he's wearing a necklace with a broken Starfleet logo that was presumably hers. You, and even he, know this is an irrational obsession with Kirk, but it's the only thing that still gives him pleasure. His last lines are from Moby Dick (which you see a copy of in the Botany Bay's first scene). He knows he's Ahab chasing his fatal obsession with his white whale, and he doesn't care.

 

I was wondering where those lines came from! And the necklace is a nice touch.

 

2 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

Because, come on, ice cream bars and Ricardo Montalban.

 

Fair enough, though he doesn't displace Spock for me as the main male of interest.

 

2 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

She's too... pink. For a Vulcan, I mean. But yes. Yeah, these films do way, way better on the sexism weirdness front. They honestly do quite well, apart from underusing Uhura here, which is at least sexism by omission rather than commission. The Carol Marcus role was actually fairly well done.

 

Ah yes, I noticed the excess blush and slightly-too-dark lipstick. Yeah, Dr Marcus was quite good. And yes, Uhura scarcely featured, alas!

 

2 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

Yay, I am pleased your first Trek film went well!

 

Yay!

[Scaly Freak]

13 hours ago, Harriet said:

Ah. I thought I knew what was happening? They needed warp drive to get away from the genesis explosion, which would reshape all living matter in favour of its own matrix (thereby presumably transforming them into algae or protozoa something). But the engine was munted thanks to the attacks. Scotty couldn't get in to fix it because of the radiation. But Spock realised he could, and quietly left the bridge without informing Kirk. There was a moment in which you saw him make that decision, I think.

 

Agreed, and I thought that whole moment was actually well done. Spock knows everyone on the ship will die if the warp drive stays offline. Spock also knows that emotional humans will argue against ordering Scotty in there to repair it at the cost of his life. Lastly, Spock knows how to repair the warp drive.

 

Spock is well aware what he's going to do will kill him and he does it anyway. Whether he does it for the entire crew (the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one), or whether he does it to save his friend Jim is up for debate, but that he deliberately gives his own life to keep others alive is without question. The quiet and understated way he leaves the bridge to go about it is deliberate, because he does not have time to explain this logically. He just does it, and he seems at peace with dying in this way.

 

And for the record, the farewell inside the warp core chamber and the funeral right after has me in tear every freaking time I watch this movie.

 

13 hours ago, Harriet said:

Yay! I liked it. But there was too much Kirk and not enough Spock. I demand more Spock. I am also 100% confident that further films cannot exist without Spock. Therefore, I am not grieving his death. I predict that he will return in the next film, transformed by genesis.

 

It doesn't matter if he does, it is still a tearful moment!