[Mad Hatter] Don’t squash the banana

[Mad Hatter]

23 hours ago, Epsilonte said:

Sounds like a great plan!

I'm looking forward to your podcast musings.

Let's see! If by the end of the challenge I come out with a clearer picture and motivation that would be awesome.

 

21 hours ago, Tobbe said:

 

I know, right?! Totally not my kind of music, but still couldn't stop listening 👂🐍

 

I'm good, you? Since this is NF after all, I'll give you the real answer.

I'm working myself into the ground. I'm working my regular dayjob, I've joined up with some dude I met online and we're building a sports-coach related web app, I'm still doing my own e-commerce side project, and I'm pretty deeply involved in an open source project. Everything is a lot of fun, except for my dayjob. But that's the only one who currently makes me any money, so I have to continue doing that. Because of all the work I'm doing I'm not sleeping, not exercising and not spending time on hobbies and generally feeling stressed out too much. Looking in the mirror I've aged 10 years, and my body is hurting/aching too. I keep telling myself it's for a limited time. "Just need to finish" and it'll be all good. And I still believe that, but it's been too long now. The community around the open source project is the best, and I constantly learn new things. Technical things of course, but also a lot about the other, softer, skills needed to call myself a senior software developer. Also a lot about running your own business and being an entrepreneur. 

Also I'm struggling with what to do with my relationship with my wife. I know you know it's been rocky before. "Meh" and "Whatever" are the two words I can come up with to describe what I feel about it right now. I'm not unhappy enough to leave, but also wouldn't care much if she decided to leave. At least I don't think so. Can you really know until it happens?

Oh man that sounds super stressful, even if you're enjoying all the side hustles. Don't forget to take care of yourself! Is there anything you could reduce the hours of?

 

Sorry about the situation with your wife. Do you know what her thoughts are on the situation? As for your question, no it's impossible to predict exactly predict how you'll react. But I'm not sure that waiting for the moment and/or trying to picture it is a very helpful way of dealing with it... Actually the way you phrase it makes me wonder if you would like her to take the difficult step, so that you wouldn't have to? I ask because I've done something like that in the past, kinda slowly pushed people away living in a status quo until someone snaps. By that point it's already beyond repair. But maybe it could've been fixed it actively dealt with sooner? I don't know, perhaps. All I do know is that I'm 100% the wrong person to ask about relationship advice. Unless for examples of what not to do.  

[KB Girl]

On 6/23/2021 at 12:43 AM, Mad Hatter said:

I'm at a point where committing to anything has me reeling back. To the point where every time I've sat down to write down some goals I'd automatically turn to another online puzzle. 🙈 I don't know if it's FOMO, or not wanting to fail yet again, or not wanting to make sacrifices, or because goals are really arbitrary and "don't matter". But goals don't need to have a point, and I hear they're pretty good for the brain too (those sweet sweet dopamine hits!) 

Oef yes! Wish I had smart things to say about this, but oef. I think the fear of failing again or even worse maybe not fearing just knowing? It's not true, but still. 

Oh ok something less depressing; someone said that goals are at least going to point you in the right direction, even if the goal posts need to be moved a couple of times along the way. I like that. 

[Mad Hatter]

2 minutes ago, KB Girl said:

Oef yes! Wish I had smart things to say about this, but oef. I think the fear of failing again or even worse maybe not fearing just knowing? It's not true, but still. 

Oh ok something less depressing; someone said that goals are at least going to point you in the right direction, even if the goal posts need to be moved a couple of times along the way. I like that. 

Well it is true that I'll fail again if I set sufficiently difficult goals. But that's not a bad thing. Well, logically I know this. Emotionally it's a different story. 😛 

Yes exactly.

[Mad Hatter]

Ok I'm already a little behind. And there's been a lot of banana mush. Or wait no, it's only been two days! I'm extremely temporally confused these days.

 

Wednesday a crazy thunderstorm rolled in about midday, like I thought it was a solar eclipse it got dark so quickly, within seconds. It was awesome. I was also trying to finish up a bunch of work stuff before the long midsummer weekend. The combo of rain plus accumulated sleep deficit plus work made me suddenly really, really tired. I tried to nap, which didn't work, I went for a walk, it didn't help. So the day was a write off.

 

Thursday was climbing! And I got absolutely crushed. 😅 Maybe it was the heat. Though last time I climbed it was warmer, and I managed to climb another red (about 6cish)! Not very prettily, it was all burl and little technique. But I did it! Yesterday I failed on what should've been a warm up climb like 4 grades lower... And it didn't get much better from there... One day you think you might have a chance at improving at this climbing thing, then BAM your ego gets shredded into dust. 😛 Afterwards we did stupid human tricks and that was really fun. I got one really good handstand, so I'm very pleased with that. Just wish my capacity was higher. 😉 And my leg waves in headstand were magically working. I also discovered that somehow elbow levers have become perfectly doable? I always struggled with the two armed ones (big butt) and found the one arm/offset version somehow more doable. But yesterday I just sort of found it. Though I can only do it with bent legs. Other things were super hard, like a splitty arm balance (don't know what it's called) because my hips are stuck and very much not splitty. And one leg crow was dreadfully hard. But it was super fun playing! My ex gymnast friend and I are now looking for some mini challenge if you have any fun ideas!

 

After climbing we went out for beers, and I didn't end up walking home until 3 am. I stopped on the way because the sunrise was beyond gorgeous. I love the quiet at that time of the day. In the end I went to bed at nearly 5 am, and let's just say I was suffering a bit today. 😛 100% worth it. Whatever goals I'll end up with, right now social things have top priority so it's aaall good and I had a blast!

 

 

Today was thus another write off. I watched the lead climbing world cup, and our gym's route setter made the semis! How cool is that? It's so frickin' impressive. I also got the flat somewhat under control, so there's at least that. 

[Mad Hatter]

So I had a few things I said I'd do. That was 3 days ago...

 

I still don't have concrete goals.

And I haven't signed up for an art class.

I haven't stretched. But I really need to. My hips feel all seized up.

 

Which makes this a good opportunity to talk about... excuses. 😉 

 

Quote

If You Aren't Making Progress, You're Probably Making Excuses.
(excerpt I copied from the blog, the rest has been removed and seems to only be available in the book and the podcast)

 

I hear them coming from every corner of the gym.  From the mats beneath the boulder.  From 30 feet up the lead wall.  I hear them in the lobby before I even make it into the gym.  No, not the voices in my head.  Those are mostly quiet these days.  What I hear are excuses.  Tons of them.  Never ending.

"I'm too short.  I wish my arms were longer." 

"I'm getting too old to climb hard."

"I climb trad, and that's harder anyway.  5.8 trad is at least as hard as 5.11 sport."

"My schedule is just too crazy to have time to get stronger."

"I climb for love.  Training would kill that."

Blah, blah, blah…

 

 

 

I feel this, climbers really do enjoy making excuses. It's like a second hobby. It can sometimes be difficult to even tell when a reason or a weakness turns into an excuse. I'm not powerful enough, I hate crimps because my fingers are too weak and fat, my coordination sucks. A few years back I'm pretty sure I'd avoid those climbs, especially since we'd move to a different gym each day of the week and there would always be a bunch of new stuff to climb and I could pick and choose. These days I climb mainly at one gym and I really do try everything, even if I suck at it and will make fool out of myself. Now that's a big mindset win! These days the excuses really are more admission of weaknesses, they don't prevent me from climbing or from learning. Which makes them ok, right? Perhaps not. At what point do weaknesses become labels? Labels that may or may not be true. For example, how many times have I tried a move, deemed it impossible because *insert excuse*, then I tried it again a few times and suddenly I stuck it? The answer is many, and it surprises me every time. In those cases it worked out because I stuck the move, but how many moves could I do if I believed that I could do it, and perhaps tried a few more times? Of course it's impossible to say, but it's worth considering.

 

For me a major excuse is that I'm tired. And it's true, especially when I've self sabotaged and worked all day without a single break and I'm starving. But at what point does it become a lie, or do I place too much weight on it? When I arrange with my friends to go climbing, I still show up despite tiredness. Sometimes the session ends up great after a warm up, sometimes shit. But I show up. When I'm at home and with no social pressure the truth is that I almost never show up. Everything has to be just right. This is particularly true of art, where I have this idea that I need to be in a certain mindset to do art. And it's not wrong per se, I do need a certain relaxed mindset for creative work. But art is not just ideation. Sometimes it's learning, sometimes grinding. There's a lot I could do by showing up, do a warm up (even something like drawing straight lines) and then take it from there. And if I didn't self-sabotage I probably wouldn't even have this problem this frequently in the first place.

 

"I climb for love. Training would kill that." This is an interesting one. On one hand I think it's awesome to do things purely for the fun of it. It's absolutely ok to say climb a few times a week and have it a social hours. Which is largely what I do currently. But at some point it's become systematic, when I treat everything that way. Then the question becomes, is it really because I don't care about progress and only about fun? Or is it because I've given up hope on improving...? Or an excuse not to commit?

[WhiteGhost]

4 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Afterwards we did stupid human tricks and that was really fun.

Stupid human tricks is my favorite part of anything    Right now, though I only have one other person to do them with and we both already know all the tricks we both can do so it kind of loses the fun.  I would totally be down for a NF style mini where we all do some stupid human tricks and show off for each other.

 

 

[Harriet]

7 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

For me a major excuse is that I'm tired. And it's true, especially when I've self sabotaged and worked all day without a single break and I'm starving. But at what point does it become a lie, or do I place too much weight on it? When I arrange with my friends to go climbing, I still show up despite tiredness. Sometimes the session ends up great after a warm up, sometimes shit. But I show up. When I'm at home and with no social pressure the truth is that I almost never show up. Everything has to be just right.

 

I understand completely. Maybe it's not an excuse/lie at all. Maybe there are factors stacking up on each side of the act/do not act binary. And tiredness is a big one, but not the only one. Our problem is we think that our plans, higher values, rationality and self-persuasion are heavy factors when they're lightweight next to other factors we don't focus on as much. We focus on them because they're the thing that happens immediately before the decision, but it doesn't follow that they are the primary cause. The trick then, must be to identify the invisible factors, and stack them in our favour. Well, that's my theory.

[KB Girl]

11 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

 

For me a major excuse is that I'm tired. And it's true, especially when I've self sabotaged and worked all day without a single break and I'm starving. But at what point does it become a lie, or do I place too much weight on it? When I arrange with my friends to go climbing, I still show up despite tiredness. Sometimes the session ends up great after a warm up, sometimes shit. But I show up. When I'm at home and with no social pressure the truth is that I almost never show up. Everything has to be just right. This is particularly true of art, where I have this idea that I need to be in a certain mindset to do art. And it's not wrong per se, I do need a certain relaxed mindset for creative work. But art is not just ideation. Sometimes it's learning, sometimes grinding. There's a lot I could do by showing up, do a warm up (even something like drawing straight lines) and then take it from there. And if I didn't self-sabotage I probably wouldn't even have this problem this frequently in the first place.

Mmm this is gold! Very good/useful thoughts. Showing up.  

[Tobbe]

14 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Oh man that sounds super stressful, even if you're enjoying all the side hustles. Don't forget to take care of yourself! Is there anything you could reduce the hours of?

 

Not right now, but I keep telling me that soon it will ease up. That I'll be able to lean back and reap the benefits of all the work I've put in. The thing is that if you would have asked me 6 months ago I would already have been at that point, but I still aren't.

 

 

14 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Sorry about the situation with your wife. Do you know what her thoughts are on the situation?

 

Not sure what her thoughts are. For some weird reason she's been more affectionate lately than she's been in a long time. I mean, in between treating me like shit and snapping at me for reasons only she knows.

 

14 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

As for your question, no it's impossible to predict exactly predict how you'll react. But I'm not sure that waiting for the moment and/or trying to picture it is a very helpful way of dealing with it... 

 

So how should I deal with it? Just do it and find out?

 

14 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

Actually the way you phrase it makes me wonder if you would like her to take the difficult step, so that you wouldn't have to?

 

It would be easier. I've thought those thoughts more than once.

 

14 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

I ask because I've done something like that in the past, kinda slowly pushed people away living in a status quo until someone snaps. By that point it's already beyond repair. But maybe it could've been fixed it actively dealt with sooner? I don't know, perhaps.

 

Yeah, perhaps. If both parties really wants to do what it takes to fix it. Not sure that's the case here.

 

14 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

All I do know is that I'm 100% the wrong person to ask about relationship advice. Unless for examples of what not to do.  

 

That's fine. Wasn't really asking (but absolutely 100% appreciate your reply ❤). Just took the opportunity to vent a bit   

[Waanie]

16 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

I feel this, climbers really do enjoy making excuses. It's like a second hobby. It can sometimes be difficult to even tell when a reason or a weakness turns into an excuse. I'm not powerful enough, I hate crimps because my fingers are too weak and fat, my coordination sucks. A few years back I'm pretty sure I'd avoid those climbs, especially since we'd move to a different gym each day of the week and there would always be a bunch of new stuff to climb and I could pick and choose. These days I climb mainly at one gym and I really do try everything, even if I suck at it and will make fool out of myself. Now that's a big mindset win! These days the excuses really are more admission of weaknesses, they don't prevent me from climbing or from learning. Which makes them ok, right? Perhaps not. At what point do weaknesses become labels? Labels that may or may not be true. For example, how many times have I tried a move, deemed it impossible because *insert excuse*, then I tried it again a few times and suddenly I stuck it? The answer is many, and it surprises me every time. In those cases it worked out because I stuck the move, but how many moves could I do if I believed that I could do it, and perhaps tried a few more times? Of course it's impossible to say, but it's worth considering.

I'm struggling with this as well, although I almost never have the situation where something seems impossible and I stick it without a different beta or at all. I'm about 20cm shorter than the gym average, and while that is not an excuse to stop trying hard, it does mean that the grading system doesn't entirely fit. Many routes are harder, since I have to be creative in foot placement and I have to move dynamically A LOT, and occasionally a route is easier because of my length. It could be that a 4b feels much harder than an 5a+, for example, even though that's 2.5 grades difference. If there's no footholds for me to use for a certain move, and I can't manage it dynamically, is that making excuses or acknowledging my limits and accepting that I'll have to revisit when I'm stonger again? Should I project a 5a route that has 6a moves in it, or should I move on to 5b/5c routes that are more fun and more doable? In the gym I go to, this problem seems to exist for both people below 1.65m and above 2m, and most opt to skip a route if it's particularly hard for their length group. On the other hand, it is generally accepted that you should be able to climb all routes 2-3 grades below your projecting grade no matter what the style.

 

16 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

For me a major excuse is that I'm tired. And it's true, especially when I've self sabotaged and worked all day without a single break and I'm starving. But at what point does it become a lie, or do I place too much weight on it? When I arrange with my friends to go climbing, I still show up despite tiredness. Sometimes the session ends up great after a warm up, sometimes shit. But I show up. When I'm at home and with no social pressure the truth is that I almost never show up. Everything has to be just right.

This is true for me as well, to a certain extent. Since showing up is half the battle, and then you spend at least some time on the wall, I'd call each time you go a big win .

[Mad Hatter]

15 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

Stupid human tricks is my favorite part of anything    Right now, though I only have one other person to do them with and we both already know all the tricks we both can do so it kind of loses the fun.  I would totally be down for a NF style mini where we all do some stupid human tricks and show off for each other.

They are the best! I'd be down too, though I lost my ability to do many of them...

 

11 hours ago, Harriet said:

I understand completely. Maybe it's not an excuse/lie at all. Maybe there are factors stacking up on each side of the act/do not act binary. And tiredness is a big one, but not the only one. Our problem is we think that our plans, higher values, rationality and self-persuasion are heavy factors when they're lightweight next to other factors we don't focus on as much. We focus on them because they're the thing that happens immediately before the decision, but it doesn't follow that they are the primary cause. The trick then, must be to identify the invisible factors, and stack them in our favour. Well, that's my theory.

Ok good I'm glad you understand! After I wrote it I started to think about it in the context of your thread, and got a little worried I came across as a dick! 🙂 Just to be very clear to everyone, I'm not at all talking about the kind of fatigue you're experiencing, or slug phase tiredness. Those are different beasts altogether and require a lot more compassionate treatment. Having said that, I think you're frickin' inspiring because you don't let tiredness be an excuse. At least to me you always seem try to the best of your ability, even if that ability happens to vary from day to day. 

 

I don't believe my rationality has much to say in this tbh. 😄 I think for me many of the invisible factors are super basic, like making sure that I don't fry my brain, and that I move, eat and drink. Or it's procrastination - I procrastinate doing the important for so long that eventually I become too tired to do them. So even if the tiredness is real, it's still often an excuse. Not always. For example on Thursday I felt genuinely wrecked. I went through my checklist of food, water, nap, outside time. None of it helped. On those days I think it's completely fair to spend the rest of the day watching movies and recovering. But when I did nothing on Friday it really was just an excuse. If I had enough energy to clean the flat despite the tiredness, I had energy to do other things.

 

7 hours ago, KB Girl said:

Mmm this is gold! Very good/useful thoughts. Showing up.  

Indeed. Waiting for the right time is quite silly. And my experience is that it's impossible to tell how a session will go until you start it anyway. There's been many occasions when I felt like crap going in to a session, which against all odds ended up fantastic once I warmed up and got into the groove. And vice versa.

 

5 hours ago, Tobbe said:

So how should I deal with it? Just do it and find out?

 

That's fine. Wasn't really asking (but absolutely 100% appreciate your reply ❤). Just took the opportunity to vent a bit   

The biggest takeaway I have from all the successful relationships I know, honest communication seems to be the key. I kinda think it's something you and your wife have to figure out together, even if it will likely bring out some painful things.

 

But of course! Venting can be super needed sometimes. 🙂

 

2 hours ago, Waanie said:

I'm struggling with this as well, although I almost never have the situation where something seems impossible and I stick it without a different beta or at all. I'm about 20cm shorter than the gym average, and while that is not an excuse to stop trying hard, it does mean that the grading system doesn't entirely fit. Many routes are harder, since I have to be creative in foot placement and I have to move dynamically A LOT, and occasionally a route is easier because of my length. It could be that a 4b feels much harder than an 5a+, for example, even though that's 2.5 grades difference. If there's no footholds for me to use for a certain move, and I can't manage it dynamically, is that making excuses or acknowledging my limits and accepting that I'll have to revisit when I'm stonger again? Should I project a 5a route that has 6a moves in it, or should I move on to 5b/5c routes that are more fun and more doable? In the gym I go to, this problem seems to exist for both people below 1.65m and above 2m, and most opt to skip a route if it's particularly hard for their length group. On the other hand, it is generally accepted that you should be able to climb all routes 2-3 grades below your projecting grade no matter what the style.

 

This is true for me as well, to a certain extent. Since showing up is half the battle, and then you spend at least some time on the wall, I'd call each time you go a big win .

Really? Happens to me all the time, especially with dynos and very delicate slab moves. But I'm a slow learner.  😄 And also power moves, it happens quite frequently that I have to recruit certain muscles in a certain way for them to do the job and it takes a few tries to turn them on so to speak. Or that I simply have to try harder (which is a whole topic in itself!). Which makes me wonder if I even try moves enough times. 🤔 I heard someone mention they have a seven try rule. If there's been zero progress on a single move for seven moves they can deem that move impossible for the moment. But not earlier. I honestly almost never do that unless maybe if it's a physically undemanding move close to the ground... I don't think I even try a boulder that many times that often...

 

Messed up grading is not a short person problem though. 😛 When I have a day where I can do a 6c but not a 5, I really don't take them seriously anymore except as suggested grades! It's also so very style dependent. My friend who's super good at jumping could do a 7b dyno boulder, but fail on a 6c technical problem. And as you say, sometimes there's a beta that you can do because you have strength or flexibility or body proportions or technique that will make a move way easier, what's the grade then? So meh. Grades really are just guidelines. 

 

What you project is entirely up to you and your goals! There's value in doing a lot of climbing. And there's value in projecting too hard things. And at times there's also value in sticking to the fun, easy climbs! But grades are not relevant here, the intensity you choose should always be relative to your personal strengths and weaknesses and what you want to work on. It's not an excuse to say for example that you want to climb moderate climbs today, and that that reachy climb doesn't fit. It only becomes an excuse if you always choose the climbs with the small uncomfortable (for tall people) moves because you know you can excel there. At least that's how I see it. Or if you use an excuse so often that other people get annoyed. 😛 I have a short friend like that, she's really frickin' strong and can climb much harder than I can, so when I've heard the same "I'm short" excuse for the gazillionth time it becomes kinda in your face obnoxious. At least I switch up my excuses for every climb I can't do haha. 😜

[Waanie]

6 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

 I heard someone mention they have a seven try rule. If there's been zero progress on a single move for seven moves they can deem that move impossible for the moment. But not earlier. I honestly almost never do that unless maybe if it's a physically undemanding move close to the ground... I don't think I even try a boulder that many times that often...

Maybe this is easier with route climbing? It's easier to isolate movements when hanging on a rope. I have the rule of 3: I have to try a move at least 3 times, at a minimum of 2-3 different sessions. If I still deem it impossible after that, I can skip it for a few months. If it seems achievable, I try more often of course.

 

10 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Grades really are just guidelines. 

Fair enough.

 

12 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

It only becomes an excuse if you always choose the climbs with the small uncomfortable (for tall people) moves because you know you can excel there. At least that's how I see it. Or if you use an excuse so often that other people get annoyed. 😛 I have a short friend like that, she's really frickin' strong and can climb much harder than I can, so when I've heard the same "I'm short" excuse for the gazillionth time it becomes kinda in your face obnoxious. At least I switch up my excuses for every climb I can't do haha. 😜

At the moment, my excuse is "I'm weak" . Climbing twice a week and only going home after my legs are empty seems the easiest way to remedy that, though. Soon it will be the "short" excuse again to skip certain climbs.

 

13 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

It's not an excuse to say for example that you want to climb moderate climbs today, and that that reachy climb doesn't fit.

You're waaaay more structured in your sessions than I am, apparently. My trainings have 3 flavours: generic hard-ish stuff, lead climbing and volume toprope climbing. I still fall multiple times every training though, so I think I'm pushing myself hard enough.

[Harriet]

23 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Ok good I'm glad you understand! After I wrote it I started to think about it in the context of your thread, and got a little worried I came across as a dick! 🙂 

 

Nöööö, it didn't even occur to me that it was about me or my fatigue. Anyway, I make excuses, too. That's why I wasn't able to be certain about the fatigue until my depression was fixed and I had done some reasonable work on the anxiety. My indolence is heavily overdetermined, much like the cause of death of the deserter facing the firing squad.

 

23 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

 Having said that, I think you're frickin' inspiring because you don't let tiredness be an excuse. At least to me you always seem try to the best of your ability, even if that ability happens to vary from day to day. 

 

Awww, thanks ❤️

 

23 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

I don't believe my rationality has much to say in this tbh. 😄 I think for me many of the invisible factors are super basic, like making sure that I don't fry my brain, and that I move, eat and drink. Or it's procrastination - I procrastinate doing the important for so long that eventually I become too tired to do them. So even if the tiredness is real, it's still often an excuse. Not always. For example on Thursday I felt genuinely wrecked. I went through my checklist of food, water, nap, outside time. None of it helped. On those days I think it's completely fair to spend the rest of the day watching movies and recovering. But when I did nothing on Friday it really was just an excuse. If I had enough energy to clean the flat despite the tiredness, I had energy to do other things.

 

Lol, rationality can be good for long term planning, but it's pretty weak when it comes to arm wrestles with short term impulses. Gazzaley and Rosen explain it superbly in The Distracted Mind. I guess the trick is figuring out what the procrastination is for. As an example, I recently figured out something. I have a problem with compulsive skin picking, and I really wish I could stop. I realised recently that I was doing it a lot before bed, as a way of putting off brushing my teeth. What happens is I don't want to brush my teeth because I find it tiring (or at least, I found it tiring at the time the habit formed, when I was really ill in my teens), so I lean on the sink and look around for distractions, then see my skin and focus on the problems, which is a major trigger for picking. If I go into the bathroom with a firm intention of brushing my teeth without any fuckery, then I can avoid picking my skin. Mad, huh? So anyway, maybe the "excuse" is just an invitation to find out what needs the soft animal body and brain are trying to meet.  Well, that's my hope and the approach I'm deciding to take after decades of expecting the sparrow of rationality to do the work of four sturdy carthorses.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Just now, Waanie said:

Maybe this is easier with route climbing? It's easier to isolate movements when hanging on a rope. I have the rule of 3: I have to try a move at least 3 times, at a minimum of 2-3 different sessions. If I still deem it impossible after that, I can skip it for a few months. If it seems achievable, I try more often of course.

Sometimes that's definitely true, if there's no easy way to get up to a move. But honestly, I think that mostly I decide that a move is too hard too soon. And even if I'm right and it's not too soon, maybe I could still learn from it by giving it a few more goes. Trying a move 3 times might not be enough. Speaking of.

 

3 minutes ago, Waanie said:

At the moment, my excuse is "I'm weak" . Climbing twice a week and only going home after my legs are empty seems the easiest way to remedy that, though. Soon it will be the "short" excuse again to skip certain climbs.

That's also one of my favourites.  Though for me personally I think it's often a cop out excuse, because my movement and coordination is not great. In a different podcast one of the guests was talking about how this kid was waaay outclimbing her, despite being both shorter and couldn't even do a single pull-up (so the strength to weight ratio theory was not valid here) simply because the kid understood movement and how to position their body so well. I'm definitely not that kid.  

 

7 minutes ago, Waanie said:

You're waaaay more structured in your sessions than I am, apparently. My trainings have 3 flavours: generic hard-ish stuff, lead climbing and volume toprope climbing. I still fall multiple times every training though, so I think I'm pushing myself hard enough.

Oh no I'm not! My sessions go something like this:

1. Warm up on easy climbs.
2. If there's a new set, climb that. I climb the grades more or less in order, then when I run out I try the stupid hard stuff and/or stupid beta. Most climbs I end up flashing or do in a few attempts. The rest I put in the "impossible" category.
3. If there's no new set, I go to the wall that my friends want to go to and project there. Or spend half my time chitchatting if I'm not in a projecting mood.

Sometimes I'll go back to a project, but oftentimes I forget I even have unfinished business.

 

It's all great fun, but not structured AT ALL. The thing is though, I've been climbing on and off for years. And I still suck. Which is fine too. But this podcast series is making me rethink whether I'm really ok with it or if it's a cop out because I don't want to commit. Not necessarily climbing, but in general.

[Waanie]

6 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Sometimes that's definitely true, if there's no easy way to get up to a move. But honestly, I think that mostly I decide that a move is too hard too soon. And even if I'm right and it's not too soon, maybe I could still learn from it by giving it a few more goes. Trying a move 3 times might not be enough. Speaking of.

 

Well, if I don't see progress in different sessions on that move (so at least 6-9 times in total), I may or may not give up. It's a pity I haven't seen any other short people climb in a while now due to covid restrictions, but generally you try a move like 5 times, I don't see how to do it, I watch/ask other people my length do that route, and try again next session, and repeat that. The exception is when I feel my fingers aren't strong enough for that route in general, since I don't want to chance injury.

 

10 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

I'm definitely not that kid.  

Having a feeling for movement is my only saving grace right now . My legs are weak enough that I can't skip 2 steps on stairs comfortably, and I can only dream of pull-ups right now. The only part strong enough is my core . My flexibility is alright, but not well enough to make up for weakness.

 

Our gym is very small, so it has relatively few routes. If there's only 5-10 routes of a certain grade, you easily end up with projects and repeating them in different sessions. The community is also close enough that others will remind you that you have unfinished business 🙃.

[Scaly Freak]

34 minutes ago, Harriet said:

I guess the trick is figuring out what the procrastination is for.

 

Procrastination is an evil demon monster and a brutal boss fight. 

 

And the purpose of those is to level up.  

[Mad Hatter]

 

35 minutes ago, Harriet said:

putting off brushing my teeth.

I've gone to bed waaaay too late may times because I put off brushing my teeth.  I don't even have a reason for it except having the dontwannas. Interesting observation how it relates to skin picking! The brain's rational in some weird irrational way.

 

12 minutes ago, Waanie said:

Well, if I don't see progress in different sessions on that move (so at least 6-9 times in total), I may or may not give up. It's a pity I haven't seen any other short people climb in a while now due to covid restrictions, but generally you try a move like 5 times, I don't see how to do it, I watch/ask other people my length do that route, and try again next session, and repeat that. The exception is when I feel my fingers aren't strong enough for that route in general, since I don't want to chance injury.

Aw shame, it's so helpful to have other people around you. Both with different and similar styles.

 

12 minutes ago, Waanie said:

My flexibility is alright, but not well enough to make up for weakness.

I feel this. I've been watching all the climbing comps lately and many of the climbers' level of flexibility is beyond bonkers. It looks awesome though. Even if I could get into those positions, if I tried to apply any force my muscles would explode.  

 

Just now, Scaly Freak said:

Procrastination is an evil demon monster and a brutal boss fight. 

 

And the purpose of those is to level up.  

Yesss!

[Waanie]

1 minute ago, Mad Hatter said:

I feel this. I've been watching all the climbing comps lately and many of the climbers' level of flexibility is beyond bonkers. It looks awesome though. Even if I could get into those positions, if I tried to apply any force my muscles would explode.  

It really is! I've actually been close to a calf cramp this week because I could get my leg high enough, but not pull hard enough on my toes to make the move. I'm not climbing a lot of real overhang yet, but my hamstrings have the same problem .

[Mad Hatter]

17 minutes ago, Waanie said:

It really is! I've actually been close to a calf cramp this week because I could get my leg high enough, but not pull hard enough on my toes to make the move. I'm not climbing a lot of real overhang yet, but my hamstrings have the same problem .

Oh gross, calf cramp while climbing. 😄 My hamstrings are really weak, especially in the proper turned out position which I find pretty hard to do. My external rotation is pretty shite…

 

Btw I’m so glad you’re around because I can talk about all this climbing stuff without feeling like I’m speaking a made up language with myself. 😂

[Waanie]

6 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Btw I’m so glad you’re around because I can talk about all this climbing stuff without feeling like I’m speaking a made up language with myself. 😂

Same! I don't know if there's any other climbers around here, but it's nice that we can talk about it here .

 

7 minutes ago, Mad Hatter said:

Oh gross, calf cramp while climbing. 😄 My hamstrings are really weak, especially in the proper turned out position which I find pretty hard to do. My external rotation is pretty shite…

 

I'm one of those people who are with their side to the wall ("turned in"?) as much as possible. That way, I have to expend less energy and it looks nicer as well. Hugging the wall with my front is harder, but I'ver fortunately never had any problems with external rotation. If you have tips against calf/hamstring cramps btw, I'm all ears .

[Mad Hatter]

29 minutes ago, Waanie said:

I'm one of those people who are with their side to the wall ("turned in"?) as much as possible. That way, I have to expend less energy and it looks nicer as well. Hugging the wall with my front is harder, but I'ver fortunately never had any problems with external rotation. If you have tips against calf/hamstring cramps btw, I'm all ears .

I think it really depends on the climb what's more efficient/pretty.  

 

It depends a bit on the position it cramps in. But really it's mostly about strengthening the muscles that cramp (assuming it's not dehydration or mineral deficiency). For hamstrings you could try doing single leg hamstring curls on a Swiss ball or similar. But with the foot turned to the side so it mimics heel hooks better. For calf cramp I'm not sure. Maybe calf raises, focusing on the top portion, but I don't think it's similar enough load... Perhaps also take a look at how you're heel hooking? Are you pushing up your butt and hips while pulling with the hammies or do the the foot/calf have to do the majority of the work? And are you warmed up enough in those ranges before you try? But I don't know, just throwing ideas out there!

[Mad Hatter]

I did stuff today! 

• Morning swim ✅
• Watched bouldering WC semis ✅
• Handstands ✅
• Strolled to get ice coffee ✅
• Arted ✅
• Watched bouldering finals ✅

Handstand practice was brutal as my flat was suuuper hot today. I survived by following the advice in Harriet's thread of drinking salt water + lime (plus cordial for a bit of sugar) and I kept cooling my face, feet and hands between sets. I started working on kicking up on my second best side, something I've never worked on because ugggh, but I'm actually I'm finding the process really interesting! Clearly I have the strength to do it, and while my flexibility on that side is worse, it's plenty sufficient. So the problem lies entirely in timing/coordination. I managed to get the height a few times, but not catch the balance because the way up was a little too chaotic. But most attempts I did weird things, despite knowing what I should be doing and what it should feel like. For example: 

• Not getting the sequencing right, e.g. placing my hands at the same time as kicking up, or trying to kick up with both legs at the same time
• Difficulty in keeping my legs straight, or tightening them so much that it blocks the swing.
• Jumping instead of swinging. 
• Something weird that made my shoulders end up behind my hands.

It really requires a surprising amount of coordination, and I can see how beginners might need to break down the movement in smaller increments, rather than assuming they simply need to kick harder. Interesting.

 

On my better side I mostly focused on keeping my legs straight, but I also held some straight handstands as so few of my kick ups are successful these days. 😛 I got a couple really long holds though! Then I made a few attempts to do leg waves in handstands. I could at most manage an inkling of movement. 😄 That's if I got into a stable straddle in the first place. Definitely above my current level, but it was fun trying. Finally I finished up with 3 wall tucks until my traps were on fire, which is currently a measly 20 seconds.

 

For art I signed up for schoolism, mostly because of their daily artist workouts. It takes away all the braining part, all I have to do is listen and watch and follow along for half an hour. It's about as low effort as it can get, so I really don't have an excuse not to do it. Did the first day, which was a few of exercises on selecting values and value simplification. I have a good feeling about this!

 

[Mad Hatter]

If anyone's curious about what the hell Waanie and I are talking about when we talk about heel hooks, here's a cool example:

 

 

 

 

It's also a great example of how pretty front on climbing can look. 😍

[Waanie]

10 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

assuming it's not dehydration or mineral deficiency

I might be a little mineral deficient; I'm eating very little animal products and I'm not looking into replacements enough. Pulses are nice for protein and such, and I eat plenty of vegetables, but there are probably some vitamins and minerals missing.

 

8 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

If anyone's curious about what the hell Waanie and I are talking about when we talk about heel hooks, here's a cool example:

 

That's a really cool clip . The move I'm currently struggling with is similar to the toe-thing at 4:12 but then moving to the left instead of the right and having to let go of the other leg. There is an alternative beta that's used by most of the taller people that involves jamming your toes in a tiny feature slightly above hip-height on a perpendicular wall. The alternative beta causes my calf to cramp and I'm just not reaching the next hold that way. The alternative beta seems much easier, but the routesetter says it doesn't work for him either. He's crazy strong though, so I might need to find a third way to get up. I hope that the other short woman who also climbs roofs will be there at the same time as me some time in the next week or so, so that I can see how she does it.

 

9 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

It really requires a surprising amount of coordination, and I can see how beginners might need to break down the movement in smaller increments, rather than assuming they simply need to kick harder. Interesting.

I just had to try it out, and it's indeed much harder to get a feeling for how hard to kick with my other leg. The difference with my "good" leg seems to be much smaller than for you, but that might be because both my regular handstands are not that good, and I have learned the movement patterns as a kid (although I've not used them for a long time now).

[Alanna]

22 hours ago, Mad Hatter said:

I started working on kicking up on my second best side, something I've never worked on because ugggh, but I'm actually I'm finding the process really interesting!

 

I like how you phrased this as your "second best" side when (unless I've misunderstood something) you just have two sides so it would also be correct to say your "worst" side. It's just interesting from a framing/mindset perspective - your wording sounds much more positive!

 

Great job not using the heat as an excuse, while still making sure to take care of yourself and adapt your routine and hydration accordingly  

 

I'm glad you found an art class that will work well for you, too - and you are paying them to take away the braining so you can just practice, so that sounds perfect! Do you think you'll share any of the projects/exercises here?