LGBTQA and Ally Safe Space

[Kes]

Kes, that's entirely uncalled for. There's no need to come in here and insult people because you don't agree with them.

 

 

I wasn't trying to be insulting, I was trying to make a joke about the way that people treat us as women.  But since it was taken that way, I've deleted it.

 

 

 

And as I said, I wasn't planning on responding any further.  The only reason I did was because of what people were saying with regards to it being a problem because it harmed the movement.  I notice you didn't respond to anybody else who was continuing the conversation, just me.  Why?

[Hit]

holy misunderstandings batman! im glad i hadnt posted before that rant kes, i think your argument is a bit more solid now than it has been in previous posts. in that vein, lets get our hands dirty! but first

 

 

 

My understanding of a "safe space" is that it's somewhere we can all come to be ourselves without being made to feel uncomfortable

sorta. its more a space where certain assumptions are taken at face value and not questioned - ie trans people are the gender they say they are, gay/bi/lesbian relationships are legitimate expressions of love etc. you can still be offended or uncomfortable within a safe space, its just that those core tenets aren't challenged. 

the question then is, is this argument challenging the base assumptions of the space? i dont think it is - i dont think kes is asking "are trans women really women" (tho a lot of those arguments sure as fuck came close to asking that in a super terf-y way). i think the question here is "are we not all dysphoric?", and subsequently, what creates and drives that dysphoria to the point where transition is necessary? 

 

 

 

 I think what we're talking about is whether it means that there's an innate thing called "gender" which is divorced from cultural context.

Then we have the reference to Judith Butler, which furthers this line of thinking.

 

 

 

Gender theorists such as Judith Butler, UC Berkeley comparative literature professor and author of the groundbreaking book "Gender Trouble," argue that a transgender person’s gender dysphoria helps to expose the way all gender identities are dysphoric; that none of us inhabits “femininity†or “masculinity†as comfortably as we think we do; and that it’s our “performance†as men and women that maintains those categories, rather than some biological truth of sex. Some consider such ideas a truer manifestation of radical feminism, as they offer a way of rethinking what it means to be men and women outside of biological notions of sex. 

and these are the kinds of challenging questions the we in LGBT community, and even broader society, need to be asking ourselves. but even with this extended argument, the core concept is one of identity. you could see the 'performance' Butler mentions as the way we navigate the space between expectation and presentation.

kes implies that when you call gender innate then people will use that to reinforce these performances - that because gender is innate then YOU MUST CONFORM to the gender roles. You must perform the role society has given you. 

 

 

 

There is no burden on anyone to actually examine the social structures which make it a pain in the butt for trans people or gay people to begin with. 

what we see then is that when a persons 'performance' does not meet with expectation or presentation, something has to change. under a patriarchal, heteronormative culture, this often means the performance must change - the person must conform. but enough people are oppressed by this that many people question the social structure and create change in the expectation.

 

through feminism, then the queer movement, and now the trans humanist movement, we are slowly breaking down these expectations, creating new presentations, and using performance to tell our own stories. we are creating identities for ourselves and freeing ourselves to push the boundaries of how we can express those identities. 
 

 

 

The entire reason that the social structures are so accepting of the "born this way" idea is that it is fundamentally non-threatening, because it continues to say, "Yes, of course most people are straight"...

i actually agree with kes that the "born this way" movement is shitty, and trying to force LGBTQ identities into biological fact without exception is damaging. i can also understand ColoQs point about political traction when it comes to the fight for queer rights. mostly i side with shaeon with "does it even matter?". whether you were born queer, developed queer, or simply decided that being queer was right for you, it should not discredit the realness of your identity.

 

This is a difficult conversation to have and not one we should close ourselves off from. However, that means that you have to decide which conversation you are having. Are you having a conversation about biological determinism and the science behind gender? Or are you having a philosophical debate on what it means to be a person and how do your experiences shape your identity? Are we being objective or subjective? And we need to identify what the goal of the conversation is. This is the misunderstanding I mentioned earlier, as it seems everyone wants to stick a little science in their personal anecdotes and call it a day. 

 

[fleaball]

And as I said, I wasn't planning on responding any further.  The only reason I did was because of what people were saying with regards to it being a problem because it harmed the movement.  I notice you didn't respond to anybody else who was continuing the conversation, just me.  Why?

That may have been a misunderstanding on my part then. It sounded like you were arguing that it was okay to keep going here the way you phrased the part about bringing it up in a safe space. I apologize.

[Reluctant Amazon]

So yeah. I need some exercises that can help me build a more feminine appearing musculature. Other than the three most obvious, any suggestions?

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[Reluctant Amazon]

I was just asking to tone it down as I was in a weird sensitive place. I've just barely got a hold on what I've been searching for for 2 years. The idea that it's okay for me to like being a woman, and that its okay to let people see it, and the actual danger for my situation is minimal.

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[Ahyar Dreamspark]

... The science conversation - even from a well-meaning, pro-trans point of view - is still a conversation that is heavy with the suggestion that people who are doing no harm to anyone must justify themselves before they can have equality and acceptance. Let people be themselves. Stop engaging in the debate that assumes that proof is required before we can move on to acceptance.

 

I completely understand the reasoning behind this statement, but on the other hand...

 

"You're crazy!"

"I just wish you were more normal :("

"It's all in your head."

"No you're not. It's those goddamned queer friends of yours influencing you to think this way!"

"But that's not natural!"

 

^ After being fed shit like this between 16 and 32, stumbling upon a large volume of scientific papers (and a PowerPoint presentation summing up all of said papers) all pointing to the fact that there actually was some validity to the way I felt did wonders for my morale.

 

I agree that people shouldn't need a pile of science papers in order to be taken seriously and not feel like shit about themselves. Unfortunately, a significant part of society isn't quite on board with the concept of trans people yet. It's shitty, but it is the world we live in right now. Science is a tool, and if it's used properly it can help (some) people understand.

 

Side note about educating society: scientific info is sloooooowly helping some of the, ahem, closed minded people close to me understand. For example, the latest issue of Scientific American: MIND has "Young and Transgender" on the front cover, along with a picture of a young trans girl's face. I haven't had the chance to actually read the article yet since it only came to my doorstep yesterday, but my mother--who was dead set against the unnaturalness (ick!) of me being trans 10 months ago--was actually intrigued by the cover of the magazine.

 

There are a few closed-minded people who are very close to me that slowly becoming more understanding. If one of the main ways I can make them clue in that trans people aren't crazy/wrong/unnatural is to throw science at them, then I will continue to throw science at them until it is no longer necessary ;P

 

Some day there will be a world where people can just be themselves.

[Artinum]

Sigh. When you mentioned "trans humanist movement", my mind immediately went to thoughts of transferring our minds into cyborg bodies. Maybe one day...

 

But back to serious topics. Yes, the nature/nurture argument does matter. As a bog standard gay man, I'm no longer as exotic a specimen of humanity as I would have been a while ago, but I remember that homosexuality was illegal in the UK until the 1960s and then legalised largely because it was considered cruel to imprison people who were mentally ill. So I would either be a criminal or a lunatic, possibly both. After a lot of effort from the gay community, most of that stigma has now been overturned. I didn't choose to be gay. My only choice when I figured it all out was to accept it or deny it, and I'm sure it's similar for trans people.

 

But this leads down some dark paths. Everything that has been said of being gay can also be said of things like paedophilia. If someone is sexually attracted to children, is that really something they can control? Is this something they are born with, or the result of environmental factors? If we consider paedophiles to be mentally unstable, why not homosexuals?

 

There's a world of difference between being sexually attracted to children and acting on that attraction - I'm sure there are many paedophiles who are really nice people, constantly struggling with their feelings. And those feelings can be strong - Freud considered the sex drive one of the most powerful of human urges. Certainly we all know of people who threw away promising careers to run away with their "true love". Homosexuals continued to meet in illegal bars and clubs even when they could expect both prison sentences AND harsh medical treatment to "correct" their abhorrent behaviour.

 

Again, no solutions here. Sometimes I feel there are none to find, and all the answers are poor compromises.

[Jett]

Before I write my piece, I just want to say that RA's comment before reminded me that I hadn't been considering the possible ramifications of my words, and so I will try to be much more conscious of that as we continue. If anyone feels that the argument is [starting to/still] making them uncomfortable beyond what they want to see in a safe space, please speak up and I'll take that as my cue to stop replying to the argument (at least in this space).

 

Hit has really responded much better than I could, and I pretty much agree with everything she said. Basically, what it boils down to for me, is that I don't agree that just because gender is innate, that means that there's something wrong with people born with a non-cis gender identity. I also don't think there's anything wrong with people born with a cis gender identity. What I would love to see is a culture where the majority of people will say, "Yes, you might have an identity/soul/personality that doesn't match what society says is 'normal' for your sex. That is perfectly fine. Be the person you know you are." I think that the idea that said identity is something you're born with is valuable, because then it's not something that people might claim could have been prevented.

 

That last part is paramount, to me. If gender is entirely something that happens after birth due to external influences, then - in theory - incredibly controlling parenting methods could be devised to absolutely ensure that no child will ever "turn out" trans. If that is the dominant idea, then even if it's unrealistic to expect such a thing to be possible, you know there will be some hyper-conservative parents that will try that. I mean, they already try to "fix" gay and trans people by putting them through "camps" and "programs". To me, the idea that it is possible to mold a mind to completely be another gender is highly, highly dangerous, because some people will try to use that as a way to change non-cis people "back to normal". In my perspective, the idea that a trans person wasn't born that way is much more dangerous and damaging than the idea that they are.

 

However, Hit, Shaeon, and others have made the very good point of, what about those who do choose? Intersex people, people who are agender but gladly pick a side because they want to fit into society better, and many other cases where someone would decide to live with a particular gender role that doesn't totally match their biological sex... is it wrong for them to choose, since they weren't "born that way"? Of course not! I hope I didn't give the impression that I felt that way, because I don't!!

 

Again, the culture that I want to see is one that says, "It's okay to express yourself in the way that you feel most comfortable." I think that's what we all want to see. But until the culture at large understands that they can't change us to "normal", we won't see that. Once they realize that we can't and won't change, they'll have to change their ideas to accept us.

 

My feeling that gender is something internal and innate that can't be changed through psychological pressures is just that - a feeling. I can't prove it, and yeah, I might even be wrong about it. In the end, I definitely do agree that it doesn't really matter where you get your identity from, it matters what you do with it, and what other people try to tell you to do with it. I only hold more to the "born with it" theory because that makes it something that no one controls, which feels safer to me.

[zeroh13]

Just because a conversation is not appropriate for a safe space, does not mean it that it's not worth discussing. It just means that this isn't the time or the place to discuss it.

To me, a safe place means a place where someone can freely and openly be themselves without someone coming along and judging or invalidating their identity and experiences. I think this conversation walks a fine line between appropriate and inappropriate for a safe space. And I think that tone plays a huge part in which side of the line it's on. The initial tone, and Hit's tone, are good examples of an appropriate way to have this conversation. But when scientific evidence was thrown into the mix, I think the tone changed (got heated) and started moving things to the other side of that line (particularly the comment that I responded to).

This is also a tricky/touchy conversation because the argument that gender is only a social construct and is not innate has been used (NOT here) to draw the conclusion that basically being trans isn't real/valid. Which is not OK. (Again, I'm not saying anyone here is saying this.)

With regard to the actual discussion, JMitch has summed up most of my opinions on the matter. I think there is room to believe that there is something innate going on, while still acknowledging that gender roles are socially constructed and problematic/oppressive.

[ColoQ]

So. is this thread really a "safe space"  or is it more a virtual Community Center? 

 

I tend to think of it more like a community center within the NF Forums "culture." A place where the LGBTQ folks of Nerd Fitness gather for the community spirit it brings. Outside of this thread, its the regular set of Nerd Fitness folks: some of which may be intolerant, but not so intolerant that an Admin needs to or may intervene. Inside this thread, We are here, we are queer, and we will brook no grumping on that. I feel that this is how this thread functions, regardless of the title.

 

*AND* As this community, we talk - as people tend to do - about the salient subjects of our time. These conversations are difficult at times, and bring different viewpoints and may even consist of small amounts of conflict on things. Hence... the conversation at hand.

 

Just because a conversation is not appropriate for a safe space, does not mean it that it's not worth discussing. It just means that this isn't the time or the place to discuss it.

To me, a safe place means a place where someone can freely and openly be themselves without someone coming along and judging or invalidating their identity and experiences. I think this conversation walks a fine line between appropriate and inappropriate for a safe space.

[shaeon]

It does matter to a certain extent. Unfortunately "biological imperative, incapable of being influenced by anything." has more political traction than "psychological imperative" inferring that someone could "choose" to not be _____ (Trans, Pan, Gay etc...).  And for very stupid  reasons there are real political battles  that are being waged on Trans folks. So.. if scientists can say that "Trans feelings are a valid expression of genetics because SCIENCE" it helps bolster the equality fight.

 

Is it Stupid?  Yeah. Totally. I don't understand why letting people live their lives requires a giant political / legal struggle. but that is the world we live in.

The science should be pursued. I'm on the fence as to whether the results should be discussed or shared in a "safe space," though.

As I noted, science is neutral. Historically, it has been frequently used as an excuse to further oppress or - at its worst - eliminate certain people. You and I may be capable of looking at scientific results and agreeing that what those results mean is that being queer is statistically less likely than being heterosexual, but since it is a result of genetics it's not abnormal. But seeing those results positively is a choice. Others can see those same results and choose to see homosexuality as a disorder which must be dealt with, treated, fixed, bred out of the species. Science isn't the gold standard of acceptance. And there's always the possibility that science will not find everything we hope it finds. If we're leaning on scientific evidence to make our case, what do we do when it doesn't find what we'd hoped it would? 

And if this is just the world we live in, then we change that world. Honestly, I don't think science has been a great champion of our cause so far. What truly changes people's minds is actually knowing people that are queer, talking with them, hearing their experiences. Personal experience tends to do more good than anything else. I mean, the world we live in is also the one where people trust their facebook friends more than their doctors. Science isn't always great at winning fights. 

 

 

 After being fed shit like this between 16 and 32, stumbling upon a large volume of scientific papers (and a PowerPoint presentation summing up all of said papers) all pointing to the fact that there actually was some validity to the way I felt did wonders for my morale.

 

I agree that people shouldn't need a pile of science papers in order to be taken seriously and not feel like shit about themselves. Unfortunately, a significant part of society isn't quite on board with the concept of trans people yet. It's shitty, but it is the world we live in right now. Science is a tool, and if it's used properly it can help (some) people understand.

 

 

I am really glad that it helped your personal morale. It is true that science that reassures you that you aren't wrong can be helpful to some. I just don't believe that it should be the thing we lean our arguments on, mainly because it won't always be a tool used to help us. 

 

i actually agree with kes that the "born this way" movement is shitty, and trying to force LGBTQ identities into biological fact without exception is damaging. i can also understand ColoQs point about political traction when it comes to the fight for queer rights. mostly i side with shaeon with "does it even matter?". whether you were born queer, developed queer, or simply decided that being queer was right for you, it should not discredit the realness of your identity.

 

 

Yes. Part of my own issue with born this way and scientific proof is that one thing we will never see is a scientific study that proves that it's normal to be a white, hetero, cisgender man (racist studies that seek to prove that those guys are superior don't count - those are endeavors that start off biased with the goal of justifying the destruction of others). The guys who are running the show are never called into question, because they are the guys running the show. They are assumed normal by default, and everyone else has to earn the right to be considered normal alongside them. There's a musician I know who is bisexual, who specifically hates born this way because her personal experience of bisexuality is that it is a choice. She could choose not to be with women. But she likes to, and she doesn't feel that the gold standard of acceptance should be whether or not it's a choice. 

And in terms of what a safe space is - well, too many things to quote just one. Mainly this room is labeled a safe space. The name is right there on the door. Don't assume it's not meant to be treated as a safe space. And my own personal approach to talking with people whose experiences are different from my own is defer to their experience. If they say something is upsetting, it is. The kind thing is to believe that their feelings are genuine. 

[Shen]

So maybe this is not an appropriate space to share this, and if it is too personal, I apologize. But I just wrote something the other day and it turns out it is pretty relevant to this thread.

 

spiralsutra.wordpress.com/things-were-different-back-then-2

 

I just want to offer some love and hope to any trans, non-binary, or non-conforming people here. People are still figuring us out but they will be ashamed in the future when they see how oppressive and cruel they were, even if they supposedly didn't realize. You are real, your struggle is real, your identity is real. It is wrong that we have to keep fighting, but we won't have to fight forever.

[Reluctant Amazon]

I'm suffering from disabling mental illness that I can't get anyone to help me with.

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[Reluctant Amazon]

I'm suffering from disabling mental illness that I can't get anyone to help me with.

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Sorry, I'm just not doing well and kind of explodey.

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[Kes]

I'm suffering from disabling mental illness that I can't get anyone to help me with.

 

Do you mean that you're having trouble getting access to mental health care at all, or that you're having trouble finding a provider who you feel is helping you?

[Reluctant Amazon]

The second, sorta. I should just wipe the posts.

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[shaeon]

Stay strong, Amazon. It's a lot of work finding a good provider that you can work well with. It's totally worth the effort, though. 

[SolitaryOrchid]

Seconding that. It took me 4 years to find one that helped but once I did it made a huge difference. I wouldn't be alive without therapy and it's more effective when you find a good one. Well worth the search, even with the extended time it took.

[Reluctant Amazon]

I don't want to be trans,and I don't want to be selfish within my marriage marriage. I won't fix anything.

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[Shen]

I don't want to be trans,and I don't want to be selfish within my marriage marriage. I won't fix anything.

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Hey there. I am sorry you are struggling, and know that you are not alone. If you are looking for any resources I might be able to point you to a few places. Or if you just want to let off steam that's cool too! Just know that figuring out/expressing your sexual or gender identity isn't selfish and there's nothing wrong with you. Much love your way.

[SaffMcCormick]

I ditto Pyrolysis with letting you know you aren't alone and that it isn't selfish to be who you are. You have my love RA, no matter how you choose to be you.

[Shen]

So this is a new one. I've recently started really being bold with my non-binary identity, insisting people use proper pronouns, etc. It's been pretty great. I feel more like myself, feel more comfortable wearing the clothes I feel best in, and so on. But recently I started taking an aerial silks class, and - this never happened to be before I came out as nb - I feel like my sense of masculinity is threatened. It's ridiculous because there's nothing inherently feminine about aerial silks, except that more women do it than men, and even if it was inherently feminine there's nothing wrong with this. I guess I'm struggling to sort out my new identity. Does anyone else have experience with this?

[Reluctant Amazon]

A very very disturbing truth is revealed.

Everyone who knows about my trans issues accepts it real and who I am, even some people who would really prefer I be a guy.

One really, really important person seems to believe it intellectually, but not really accept that I am a woman.

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[StarRuby]

Ouch, I'm sorry to hear that ReluctantAmazon. I hope that this person comes around at some point.

 

I would be crushed were I in that position. 

[Reluctant Amazon]

Sucks its the only person I literally can't live without. I think she's due for a breakthrough.

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