The Art of (Wo) Manliness

[weirdquark]

I've noticed many areas are more open to women now than there used to be, but there are still definite biases. They are subtler nowadays, but still extant... in some fields more than others.

What actually worries me a bit more is the o pposite, the way traditionally "female" roles are not open to males. If a guy likes glitter, bright colors, fashion or cooking, people call him names and question his orientation (as if being gay was an insult... but unfortunately it is used as one.) Why is it ok for women to like power tools, but not ok for men to like dolls? I frankly wish the men in my family could be a bit more girly, if that meant they'd fix dinner or wield the vacuum once in a while. They appear to have some psychological block which goes beyond plain laziness.

It's because in many ways it's not okay to be a woman. It's more acceptable for women to do "man" things because it's good to be a man, but if you're a man who likes "woman" things you're not only less of a man, you're less of a person.

I remember reading about a study (I forget when the study was done, but my brain is associating this with Gloria Steinem so 70s-80s?) where people were asked to come up with adjectives associated with being an adult, and with adjectives associated with being a man/masculine and being a woman/feminine. The adjectives for being a man and being an adult had a lot of overlap. The adjectives associated with women and being an adult had almost none.

[cracked_belle]

It's because in many ways it's not okay to be a woman. It's more acceptable for women to do "man" things because it's good to be a man, but if you're a man who likes "woman" things you're not only less of a man, you're less of a person.

beautifully phrased. thank you.

[surge_supra]

It's because in many ways it's not okay to be a woman. It's more acceptable for women to do "man" things because it's good to be a man, but if you're a man who likes "woman" things you're not only less of a man, you're less of a person.

I remember reading about a study (I forget when the study was done, but my brain is associating this with Gloria Steinem so 70s-80s?) where people were asked to come up with adjectives associated with being an adult, and with adjectives associated with being a man/masculine and being a woman/feminine. The adjectives for being a man and being an adult had a lot of overlap. The adjectives associated with women and being an adult had almost none.

I suppose this isn't surprising at all...We are kind of at the fringe of the tipping point of all of these changes happening to societal roles. It's becoming more prevalent for men to be stay-at-home-dads or even single fathers more "ok" for men to do more "womanly" things let's say. But even still, being female is still associated with being "weak." But the changes I kind of see are it becoming more and more apparent that women wield a lot of power in intimate relationships (I am aware of the rape nuimbers and the domestic violence numbers...unfortunately...but let's just set those aside for a moment?)--"happy wife happy life?" And women wield a lot of power in politics and other areas. I mean before now, even as a woman I never knew that women could do pullups [sounds stupid, I know] and was taught relentlessly that men are better at doing anything physical. Naturally that made me workout harder lol join the fire department, been an EMT for 7 yrs--but still lol.

I played right into the stereotype that being "masculine" or having "manly" qualities made you more of an adult and more respectable. I'm slowly learning that society isn't really built that way anymore. Sensitivity, understanding, patience and other attributes generally associated with "womanhood" are becoming more and more cherished in our society. The list can go on I'm sure.

Maybe one day it won't be okay to be a man or a woman, heterosexual or homosexual...maybe one day it'll just be okay to be a person and you're not measured by your manliness or womanliness you're measured by your awesomeness

[Raincloak]

I was just talking about this in regards to the Newton shootings yesterday, about how men are expected to be a certain way, and if they arent, it sets them up for lifelong problems and difficulties, not all of which end up in violence, but it's not surprising that some would. It's not a coincidence that practically every one of these mass shootings have been perpetrated by white males on the social fringes of their peer groups.

We are destroying our society by our incessant drive to "conform" and be the same.

I think you're wrong about the causes of these shootings. for one thing, the Virginia Tech shooting was committed by a Chinese-American, if memory serves. There have also been a couple shootings perpetrated by women and girls, though usually on a smaller scale. It is true that women tend to be less outwardly violent.

It's not that the shooters were "on the social fringes," or that they violated standard social gender norms. The common factor is mental illness, and not just in the hindsight "the guy murdered 20 people, of course he's mentally ill" kind of way. They all have a history of depression, schizophrenia, antisocial personality, violent rages, or some combination of those. A lot of times they're on drugs (or off their meds) as well. If they're social rejects, it's a symptom of their problems, not a cause.

I've studied several of these random attacks. The people who commit them want to lash out and they want attention. Since guns are easy to get in this country, they often choose guns, but some use knives, blunt instruments, or even fists and teeth. Those small-scale attacks are actually far more common, but they don't make the national news. It's less common for someone to be both rational and foresighted enough to plan a mass shooting, and crazy enough to carry it out... most violent people are very shortsighted and have poor self-control. But there are a few oddballs.

[Oogiem]

Maybe one day it won't be okay to be a man or a woman, heterosexual or homosexual...maybe one day it'll just be okay to be a person and you're not measured by your manliness or womanliness you're measured by your awesomeness

A bit too much wine on board to respond appropriately but this is absolute gold.

[Kyrian]

I've noticed many areas are more open to women now than there used to be, but there are still definite biases. They are subtler nowadays, but still extant... in some fields more than others.

What actually worries me a bit more is the o pposite, the way traditionally "female" roles are not open to males. If a guy likes glitter, bright colors, fashion or cooking, people call him names and question his orientation (as if being gay was an insult... but unfortunately it is used as one.) Why is it ok for women to like power tools, but not ok for men to like dolls? I frankly wish the men in my family could be a bit more girly, if that meant they'd fix dinner or wield the vacuum once in a while. They appear to have some psychological block which goes beyond plain laziness.

The experience I've always had with this is that while it's acceptable for a woman to like 'manly' things, that's only true until she becomes 'equal' to a man in a manly area. It's attractive for a woman to know a little bit about cars... not attractive to fix a part that a man can't figure out. It's attractive to see a woman do a pull-up - not attractive to see a woman do more pull-ups than you, as a man, can do. Whereas for men, it's a very tough road to choose to do something feminine, like fashion, cooking, or beauty, but once he's committed to his choice it's much easier for him to be accepted and excel. So I think it's still very sexist on both sides of the board.

[surge_supra]

The experience I've always had with this is that while it's acceptable for a woman to like 'manly' things, that's only true until she becomes 'equal' to a man in a manly area. It's attractive for a woman to know a little bit about cars... not attractive to fix a part that a man can't figure out. It's attractive to see a woman do a pull-up - not attractive to see a woman do more pull-ups than you, as a man, can do. Whereas for men, it's a very tough road to choose to do something feminine, like fashion, cooking, or beauty, but once he's committed to his choice it's much easier for him to be accepted and excel. So I think it's still very sexist on both sides of the board.

I'm not sure if I agree with you on this. Given, I'm from a very populated and liberal area so people may be more open and accepting but when you mentioned the mechanic bit the Transformers movies came to mind. No one seemed to have a problem with Megan Fox being able to fix cars (although her original jock boyfriend was pissed about it, the less meathead Sam had no problem at all).

I also think it's completely acceptable for a man to cook. I'm not sure how much that's looked at as a "woman's" job anymore. Albeit I will say that in general I have experienced better cooking from women but male chefs (from what I see) kind of dominate the international world with their greatness lol as well as most restaurant chefs I see are male?

I can completely understand the fashion and beauty part--those are beyond traditionally female and a little beyond metro. It's cool for a man to go to South Pole and find awesome looking clothes, not as cool and acceptable for him to start designing women's clothing (unfortunately even though most clothes are probably designed by men anyway lol).

I think maybe the world is changing but people are still clinging to these outdated and bizarre societal roles that don't fit women too well and as women's roles change, those societal roles for men don't fit either.

I hope I'm right...Mass change on this subject would be awesome for my eventual kids and grandkids, sons and daughters.

[obax]

Maybe one day it won't be okay to be a man or a woman, heterosexual or homosexual...maybe one day it'll just be okay to be a person and you're not measured by your manliness or womanliness you're measured by your awesomeness

I try to live that way every day, both in my interactions with others and in believing that about myself and demanding others treat me with that level of respect. It hasn't always worked out, there are those who just couldn't handle the fact that I'm as awesome as I am (that's intended to have a bit more tongue in cheek-ness than arrogance, honest).

This is actually an interesting question for me to consider. I've always been a tomboy, and feel more at home doing traditionally 'man' things, though I do enjoy some traditionally 'woman' things (as I once said to my sister, I share her love of bags and shoes, I'm just more attracted to backpacks and hiking shoes than to purses and high heals). Gender for me has always been a sliding scale, and I feel like I usually sit somewhere just to the 'woman' side of middle. So I guess, for me, being a woman = being me, and I don't care much what society has to say about that.

[surge_supra]

I try to live that way every day, both in my interactions with others and in believing that about myself and demanding others treat me with that level of respect. It hasn't always worked out, there are those who just couldn't handle the fact that I'm as awesome as I am (that's intended to have a bit more tongue in cheek-ness than arrogance, honest).

This is actually an interesting question for me to consider. I've always been a tomboy, and feel more at home doing traditionally 'man' things, though I do enjoy some traditionally 'woman' things (as I once said to my sister, I share her love of bags and shoes, I'm just more attracted to backpacks and hiking shoes than to purses and high heals). Gender for me has always been a sliding scale, and I feel like I usually sit somewhere just to the 'woman' side of middle. So I guess, for me, being a woman = being me, and I don't care much what society has to say about that.

Obax, I couldn't agree and empathize with you more. I would describe myself the exact same way, literally. Sometimes it makes my interactions with others a little scathing but hey, I'm a woman and proud and I'm darn proud in my interests in traditionally "manly" things. Society should catch up eventually lol

[obax]

Society should catch up eventually lol

And if it doesn't, we can just continue being our awesome selves over in our awesome corners of the world, and eventually the rest of society won't be able to penetrate our wall of awesomeness and we'll be free to be as awesome as we could possibly want, whether they like it or not!

Actually, I often feel like I'm just at that last place most of the time. I'm glad I've got family and friends who also think I'm awesome, anyway...

[Laureleye]

I am very lucky - my husband has never been bothered by the fact that I'm more mechanical than he, and he couldn't care less about anyone's opinion of his knitting and needlepoint skills. While there is still a lot of gender bias out there, those of you that are a bit younger don't remember the worst of it. In school, I was actually told once that being good in math and science wasn't "ladylike". When I got married, it was all but impossible for a woman to get credit or buy a house (why should they - their husband will buy it!) And I'll never forget the reaction when I looked a male coworker in the eye and told him that I didn't appreciate him calling me a "girl" anymore than he would appreciate me calling him a "boy". Lets all hope for and work towards a world of gender-blind awesomeness where people aren't stuffed into some mold that they will never be able to fit.

[surge_supra]

I am very lucky - my husband has never been bothered by the fact that I'm more mechanical than he, and he couldn't care less about anyone's opinion of his knitting and needlepoint skills. While there is still a lot of gender bias out there, those of you that are a bit younger don't remember the worst of it. In school, I was actually told once that being good in math and science wasn't "ladylike". When I got married, it was all but impossible for a woman to get credit or buy a house (why should they - their husband will buy it!) And I'll never forget the reaction when I looked a male coworker in the eye and told him that I didn't appreciate him calling me a "girl" anymore than he would appreciate me calling him a "boy". Lets all hope for and work towards a world of gender-blind awesomeness where people aren't stuffed into some mold that they will never be able to fit.

Wow I can only imagine that. The only thing I can say is thank you for paving the way for us now. Without you, we wouldn't've made it this far.

I've only experienced minor stoppages to my "non-ladylike" tendencies. One of which was at Sunday School when a famous nun came in and spoke with us; she emphaszed that the men in the room should grow up to become doctors and lawyers and such and I raised my hand (cute little 9 year old that I was) and asked why I couldn't do that and she said that I should concentrate on finding a husband that could. Needless to say that was the end of my Catholic career lol.

[Kristen]

Being a woman - obviously very individual and subjective, but to me, it should be something like

- loving your body, and trying to do good by it - with exercise, food and lifestyle

- being confident in yourself and your abilities. Don't let people make less of you. (sadly, other women are very good at this, as well as patriarchal nonsense)

- being confident in your choices. Have children or not, breastfeed or not, career or not - these are your choices. Respect them.

- respect other people's choices, even if they're not the same as your own. So, don't get into sweary screeching matches, irl or on the net, about whether not breastfeeding makes someone an evil selfish unfit mother...

- but also, stand up for what you believe in. Hard to walk the line between respecting other people's differences and standing up for your own sometimes, but do what feels right.

- have some dignity. Respect yourself.

- but also, don't be afraid to be silly sometimes.

- enjoy sex. Why shouldn't you?

I agree with all of this, except I'd change the last line to "embrace your own sexuality," because for some of us that means not having any. I faked it for years and it was one of the most disrespectful things I could have done to myself. I thought, I'm a feminist, I should love sex! To be sexually liberated doesn't necessarily mean you have to have it.

[deathstalker]

Another seconding to the sexual liberation part. For me true sex positivity means shaming no one for how much they choose to have sex.