The Quest for Six Pack

[Flex Luthor]

Two of my favorite are hanging leg raises and renegade rows.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Two of my favorite are hanging leg raises and renegade rows.

You sir make me want to rech through the screen. Everyone in this thread please read this:

http://startingstrength.com/articles/abs_rippetoe.pdf

[Waldo]

You sir make me want to rech through the screen. Everyone in this thread please read this:

http://startingstrength.com/articles/abs_rippetoe.pdf

That applies to weight people. Great. Weight people can get away with having moderately strong cores. But most in this thread are assassins. When you are a primarily bodyweight worker, your load potential comes from your core. The strength requirements are much, much higher. Getting a stronger core will not be an auxillary of the exercises you do. The exercises you do will be an auxillary of your core strength.

Rippetoe may know what he's talking about with weights, but he's frankly clueless as to what matters when applied to how assassins work. Squats are not the grand tonic for everything. Situps, lol, there are other ab exercises. Hanging leg raises mentioned are a precursor to L-sit work.

See that hold in my avi? If you can't hold a floor L-sit for 30 seconds (no easy feat), your abs aren't strong enough to hold it (among other things, that hold is much, much, much harder than it looks, unrack a 1.0x BW bench press and hold it over your abs with locked elbows, that's what I'm doing essentially). And this is still intermediate stuff. A dragon flag is generally considered pretty hard. Most people don't do them because they are way too hard. If a dragon flag isn't laughably easy, your core is nowhere near strong enough to do a front lever, and most of the ways to increase pull resistance beyond l-sit pulls will require some level of the front lever progression. In order to get the front lever you have to do a lot of assistance work with dragon flags and pause dragon flags (holding them at max intensity) to get your core strength up to snuff.

If you want to get in to human flag work your obliques need to be ultra strong. Renegade rows are definitely a good assistance exercise early on. Floor wipers as well. But renegade rows also well transfer to one arm pushups, strengthening your ability to resist the twist, which is in fact MORE difficult than the press with the arm; the quality of the press will largely be a function of how well you can resist the twist internally, this is especailly important as you begin to move from a wide stance to a narrower base, as you are going to be bleeding strength to maintain balance, a super strong core is needed to enable you to engage your chest.

[Draco]

Nerd fight!

Seriously though, you've both got good points. Certain core exercises are overused and potentially dangerous. Others work great, especially in the context of a relevant training regimen. And I think we'd all do well to look at both points carefully, especially those new to the concepts involved.

[Flex Luthor]

Waldo beat me to it on my counter argument so I won't repeat what he said. All I will add is that the discussion was on how to get a six pack and those two exercises, among others, were how I did it.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I didn't mean for it to say fix everything with squats, the reason I posted it was for the isometric vs. plyometric point. Should have made that clearer, my bad.

The main job of the abs is isometric contraction, not plyometric, and that's the best way to make them stronger. The L-sits, dragon flags, and front levers in Waldo's example are all a good examples. So are the renegade rows, especially during the rowing component. I just hate when people say do sit ups of leg raises, that's not making the abs much stronger at all.

[Waldo]

I didn't mean for it to say fix everything with squats, the reason I posted it was for the isometric vs. plyometric point. Should have made that clearer, my bad.

The main job of the abs is isometric contraction, not plyometric, and that's the best way to make them stronger. The L-sits, dragon flags, and front levers in Waldo's example are all a good examples. So are the renegade rows, especially during the rowing component. I just hate when people say do sit ups of leg raises, that's not making the abs much stronger at all.

The abs have to hold the hip angle during leg raises, but the movement primarily comes from the flexors. The flexors are usually lumped with the ab group movement-wise despite actually being located in the legs.

Leg raises are one of the better exercises to build up to the high ab strength stuff though. In the continuum of ab exercises, leg lifts are several steps above crunches and planks. Once you are strong enough to do leg raises for reps, should be able to pause and hold them and start using the L position to enhance exercises like chinups. Those can be especially good; trying to hold the L while doing explosive chins really does the trick as you're bracing against a lot of momentum, basically using the shake weight effect.

[darkstar]

Waldo, what's the next step in this progression?

1. Chin-ups

2. Half L-sit chin-ups (knees bent)

3. Full L-sit chin-ups (legs straight)

4. ???

[Flex Luthor]

The main job of the abs is isometric contraction, not plyometric, and that's the best way to make them stronger.I just hate when people say do sit ups of leg raises, that's not making the abs much stronger at all.

I never said it was the best way to get a strong core. Strength is separate from hypertrophy, which is how to get the six pack to really pop.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

I never said it was the best way to get a strong core. Strength is separate from hypertrophy, which is how to get the six pack to really pop.

In plyometric exercises like compound lifts, the difference between training for hypertrophy and pure 1 rep strength is only how long the muscles are under load. Hypertrophy is typically aimed at 12-15 rep sets, which last for 24-30 seconds of loading if 2 seconds per rep is assumed. For the 3-5 rep sets done for strength, there is only 9-15 seconds of loading if a longer rep of 3 seconds is assumed.

The reason I say this is that all exercises brought up here by all parties would put the abdominals under loads for a timeframe similar to the hypertrophic schemes I address above, so all would cause hypertrophy. My argument is that a max strength isometric squeeze for those 30 seconds will be much more effective than plyometric leg lifts or sit ups for the purposes of hypertrophy as they muscles will be under a larger load over the same time frame.

A good piece of reading on an example of this theory is the bulking section of the 4 Hour Body by Tim Ferris, which is one of those top books Steve recently talked about on the blog. He talks about doing 8 reps that last 5 seconds in each direction for a total time under high load of 80 seconds in order to bulk. This slow rep scheme causes you to stay near the max load for the whole set instead of the cyclic loading inherent in the faster reps. Staying close to that max the whole time causes a better hypertrophic reaction.

Edit: you can find a long excerpt of this reading on lifehacker if you search the authors name there and read it for free.

[Waldo]

Thing is though, there's a million different theories as to what is the best way to cause hypertrophy. In the end there are only really three constants within the myriad of various schemes.

Effort, volume, and a calorie suplus.

Workout a lot. Hard. Eat a calorie surplus. Your muscles will get bigger.

Even the stupidest of schemes work just great if the eating is right until people start nearing their genetic potential (which is much lower than you'd think, unless you opt for chemical enhancements).

The more I read about various plans and the expereinces of various people, the more I'm convinced that practically everything works provided the eating, volume, and effort is there.

[Gainsdalf the Whey]

Thing is though, there's a million different theories as to what is the best way to cause hypertrophy. In the end there are only really three constants within the myriad of various schemes.

Effort, volume, and a calorie suplus.

Workout a lot. Hard. Eat a calorie surplus. Your muscles will get bigger.

Even the stupidest of schemes work just great if the eating is right until people start nearing their genetic potential (which is much lower than you'd think, unless you opt for chemical enhancements).

The more I read about various plans and the expereinces of various people, the more I'm convinced that practically everything works provided the eating, volume, and effort is there.

I completely agree that if you do those 3 things you will see growth. The question is how to get the most bang for your buck so you don't have to spend 20 hours a week working out. I'm most interested in what gets the best results per amount of time doing it, which is what I believe is the definition most use for effectiveness. I believe that's what most others are interested in as well.

Especially for abdominals, I think max strength isometric squeezes and holds, whether they are from barbell exercises or body weight, provide max effort over a given time and if the diet is right will give the best results per time spent working out for the reasons given above.

[Waldo]

Waldo, what's the next step in this progression?

1. Chin-ups

2. Half L-sit chin-ups (knees bent)

3. Full L-sit chin-ups (legs straight)

4. ???

Could go a few different paths.

Start working on the front lever progression with tuck levers, which will unlock the whole lever pull family such as ice cream makers and lever rows. Once you can hold a basic tuck lever for a while (20-30 sec) you can start doing dynamic movements with it like tuck lever rows and tuck ice cream makers, working toward doing them while in a fully extended lever (this will most likely take a long, long time, a year+).

You could get a dip belt, ankle weights, or a weight vest and do them weighted.

Or you could start working toward one arm chins, doing 1 hand chins (other arm grabs wrist), towel chins, and/or archer chins. Either way its a long, long road to the one arm chin (years+ as well). A full front lever is a good bit easier than a one arm chin.

[Waldo]

Especially for abdominals, I think max strength isometric squeezes and holds, whether they are from barbell exercises or body weight, provide max effort over a given time and if the diet is right will give the best results per time spent working out for the reasons given above.

The abs are a different beast though. I don't think that you can ignore the dynamic movement part of their job description.

I think you have to work both ends of the isometric spectrum (straight isometrics and tilted hip isometrics) as well as the dynamic movement within those extremes.

Hypertrophy efficiency will always be a function of diet unless you are doing the minimalist thing with regards to working out. Your diet sets the rate of muscle gain, no particular exercise scheme is going to change that rate all that much unless the volume or effort isn't up to par, in which case you get fat instead. At the other extreme from minimalist, volume will autoregulate itself with diet. Too much volume for your intake and your body will have recovery issues that will impact your workouts.

[Flex Luthor]

We can talk about science till we're blue in the face but it really doesn't matter. Waldo nailed it on the head although I would simplify it even more and combine effort and volume. As long as a progressive force is applied to the abs, they will get stronger. As you feed those abs they will get bigger. Period. I'm a big believer in the school of GSD. You'd be surprised how far you can go with sheer willpower.

[Draco]

Five negatives yesterday, and my lats don't hurt yet! Progress? Heck yeah!

[Elastigirl]

Five negatives yesterday, and my lats don't hurt yet! Progress? Heck yeah!

Great on 5 negative! Question on your lats not hurting. I had no sore lats and then my shoulder started hurting, and I realized I was using my shoulder more than my lats. Are you sure you are engaging your lats and not your shoulder?

[Draco]

My shoulders don't hurt either, but they're probably stronger than my lats so I might not notice. I'll have to pay more attention when I do them again tomorrow and see where I feel it. Thanks!

[darkstar]

I think we forgot something very important--how are we going to judge this PvP? I propose community voting on two prizes: (1) best six pack, and (2) most ridiculous progress, and we should set an end-date for when voting will happen.

But! If any of you guys want to propose other suggestions, I would love to hear them.

[Flex Luthor]

I think we forgot something very important--how are we going to judge this PvP? I propose community voting on two prizes: (1) best six pack, and (2) most ridiculous progress, and we should set an end-date for when voting will happen.

But! If any of you guys want to propose other suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Sounds like a great idea. What will be the criteria for judgement on best six pack? Symmetry? Definition?

[Wolverine]

Sounds like a great idea. What will be the criteria for judgement on best six pack? Symmetry? Definition?

I think bonus points should be awarded for number of tattoos...

[darkstar]

@jpryan90 I think we'll let the community vote; when you cast your vote, you can decide what criteria you find the most important

@Dillpedo I may or may not go buy some sharpies now

[mksiemens]

Sounds like a great idea. What will be the criteria for judgement on best six pack? Symmetry? Definition?

im thinking it shud definitely be definition, cus symmetry is more of a genetics thing, can't really do much about it if your abs don't line up

[Wolverine]

@Dillpedo I may or may not go buy some sharpies now

HA HA HA

[darkstar]

OH SHIT WHEN DID JPRYAN JOIN THE CHALLENGE?! Don't you already have a six pack? :-D

Anyway, I think it'd be cool if the end of this PvP lines up with the end of a 6 week challenge. Since we started in the middle of this one, how would you guys feel about having this PvP end with the next 6 week challenge?