Osu

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

56 minutes ago, Kishi said:

Sorry, Padre, but I call BS. It's a hugely complicated issue, I grant you, and maybe I'm never going to fully get over it (maybe. I don't know). But even if that's true, there's going to be a degree to which I get over it, an extent to which it is dealt with, and consigning myself to isolation just because I'm absolutely not 100% nontoxic seems... harsh.

 

And say that I do isolate myself to work on this. What in the world makes you think that while I'm working on one issue, another one won't come up? What makes you think that I won't grow into other ways to hurt people even as I deal with the one? Indeed, how would I even know?

 

Because that's what I did in the first place. I've told myself for years that there was always some way in which I was deficient and needed correction, and I'd already consigned myself to a certain distance from people. And I thought I had it figured out. But coming out of that isolation, I see now that in working to find ways to not hurt people, I wound up finding other ways to hurt people, and I never even knew.

 

So, I'm sorry. I appreciate your heart on the matter, but I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. This belief, I suspect, is like many of mine in that it exists on a spectrum. It can be leveled up toward something different. Something better. And I don't deserve to be alone or unhappy until some magical switch in my thinking is flipped.

My apologies. I did not communicate well (and even if I had communicated better I may still have been incorrect).

 

Dealing with the issue does not, in what I intended to communicate, mean learning how to be happy, it meant learning to let go of worrying about whether or not you deserve it. Many people who are unhappy don't think at all about whether or not they deserve to be happy. I also did not mean to say you deserve to be alone. I meant that struggling with allowing yourself to be happy will translate into struggles in romantic relationships. 

I also did not mean to make you feel deficient, and it's clear I did, I apologize, that was not ok.

 

If I may have the opportunity to try again:
 

Happiness is not about deserving. When you accept that it will make relationships a lot easier.

 

One thing I do want to point out and praise the hell out of is the last line of what you wrote in response to me.

"And I don't deserve to be alone or unhappy until some magical switch in my thinking is flipped." 

I agree 100%. 

[sarakingdom]

1 hour ago, Kishi said:

It was, and it's not over yet. Part of me wonders what the point is because I think to myself that even if I dealt with all this to the point that these issues weren't issues anymore, I'd just be finding other ways to hurt people in the meantime. I suspect that this work isn't really ever going to stop. 

 

Life Dojo. What's the point of learning karate if there's never a point where you know all the karate? You do it because you want to develop the skill you are capable of, and generally once you get past the slog of feeling like an idiot at the junior ranks, that mastery starts to feel a lot more useful and rewarding. Even if there is no finish line to cross.

 

I mean, think about human beings for a second. Do you know, or know of, any human beings who are capable of total emotional control and having zero misunderstanding? No, that's not what humans are. The possibility of hurting someone always exists, and always will. Like training injuries, you can prevent most of them, and the worst of them, by training wisely, but it will always be a possibility of the activity. Humanning is like that, too. What there is, is learning best safety practices and skills.

 

This is one of those times in life when beginner's mind is really, really helpful. Also the ability to ask yourself if it's reasonable to hold any junior belt to a zero-tolerance-for-errors standard, and whether it's going to be wise as a senior belt to train with the assumption that you've reached a zero-error level. (I tell ya, I wouldn't feel safe training with a black belt who felt that way. Believing you're capable of making mistakes is one of the big things that keeps you and the other around you safe.)

 

[Kishi]

3 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

My apologies. I did not communicate well (and even if I had communicated better I may still have been incorrect).

 

Dealing with the issue does not, in what I intended to communicate, mean learning how to be happy, it meant learning to let go of worrying about whether or not you deserve it. Many people who are unhappy don't think at all about whether or not they deserve to be happy. I also did not mean to say you deserve to be alone. I meant that struggling with allowing yourself to be happy will translate into struggles in romantic relationships. 

I also did not mean to make you feel deficient, and it's clear I did, I apologize, that was not ok.

 

If I may have the opportunity to try again:
 

Happiness is not about deserving. When you accept that it will make relationships a lot easier.

 

One thing I do want to point out and praise the hell out of is the last line of what you wrote in response to me.

"And I don't deserve to be alone or unhappy until some magical switch in my thinking is flipped." 

I agree 100%. 

 

Ah. Okay. Now I understand. Thank you for your advice.

 

I'm sorry I snapped at you. Like I said, I'm a little sleep deprived and a little strung out, so I'm not catching on as quick as I could be.

 

2 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

This is one of those times in life when beginner's mind is really, really helpful. Also the ability to ask yourself if it's reasonable to hold any junior belt to a zero-tolerance-for-errors standard, and whether it's going to be wise as a senior belt to train with the assumption that you've reached a zero-error level. (I tell ya, I wouldn't feel safe training with a black belt who felt that way. Believing you're capable of making mistakes is one of the big things that keeps you and the other around you safe.)

 

Well, yeah, but it's not that I believe I'm at a zero-error level, it's that I can't even identify what the errors are. I mean, I thought I was running away from committing errors as hard as I could and I wound up hitting a whole other set on the other side of the spectrum. Ain't that something. And if you commit too many errors, eventually the person you commit them on doesn't want to be around anymore, and there's not necessarily any telling where or when that is.

 

...

 

I suspect this preoccupation with perfect conduct is probably going to be another thing I have to interrogate.

[Mistr]

I am there with you in feeling like I should get rewarded for behaving well. If I do all my chores, things should go better, right?

 

Unfortunately the universe doesn't work that way. I smell a carryover from Calvinist preaching - do good and you will be rewarded (in heaven and on earth). Coercive rhetoric to get the lower classes to work harder. 

 

We see a lot of the same mindset in fitness discussions. Just do the right mix of strength, endurance and mobility work, the right volume of sets x reps, and you will have the body of your dreams.

 

But will you be happy?

 

It's clear that not having your basic needs met will make you unhappy. After that the question gets personal. Do you care what kind of food you eat? Are you happier living in one place or traveling? Living by yourself or with a bunch of people? Do you get grouchy when you've been off the mats too long? Do the dirty dishes bother you or can you let them stack up until you are out of clean plates?

 

Answering those questions will make a lot more difference than doing the things you think you should do.

 

1 hour ago, Kishi said:

Well, yeah, but it's not that I believe I'm at a zero-error level, it's that I can't even identify what the errors are. I mean, I thought I was running away from committing errors as hard as I could and I wound up hitting a whole other set on the other side of the spectrum. Ain't that something. And if you commit too many errors, eventually the person you commit them on doesn't want to be around anymore, and there's not necessarily any telling where or when that is.

 

What you describe is a thing in relationships - even if there are no "errors" at all. I'm not talking about big things like disrespecting someone or being inconsiderate too often. I believe you are already doing your best to be considerate. No, I'm talking about differences in preferences. You like to train martial arts, exercise, read SF and do gaming with friends. All of those are positive things in your life. They might not fit for someone else. You might like to sleep in a dark cave and someone else might prefer having lights because they have nightmares. No value judgement, just different preferences. You already know these things, you've made choices about what kind of life you want. If someone else doesn't want to allow time and space for them, you are not a good match, however much you might like each other.

 

I understand that you have worked hard to behave honorably and not hurt people. I admire that. The tough part is that even when you are doing your best, you may accidentally hurt someone. Sometimes you are put between a rock and a hard place of choosing who is likely to get hurt. Being considerate of other people requires a certain amount of information about their needs and history. For example, you know not to use the N-word in referring to people, because of all its history and emotional baggage. I expect there is a similar word that should not be used to describe the native people of Australia, but I don't know that word. Since Australians speak English, I might use that word by accident, not knowing it is loaded in some contexts. I would be embarrassed and apologetic if someone pointed out to me how I had been hurtful. Hopefully I would learn and make more informed choices moving forward.

 

This stuff is hard for everyone. You see links on FB all the time about how (not) to talk to people with cancer, or people who are grieving. Even when people really want to be helpful, they often say the wrong thing. You do your best and try to learn to do better.

 

To make it even more challenging, behaviors that are perfectly fine with some people are not fine with others. Maybe from cultural expectations, maybe from personal history, maybe just by personal preference. You often won't know in advance and will have to watch for clues.

 

In a perfect world, people would say something when you get too close to a line. In this world, you are a tall, muscular white man. Lots of people will do a risk assessment and not say anything if they don't know you well. Sorry to say, you are in a demographic that has a bad reputation for violence when asked to modify their behavior. You are going to need to be proactive in asking the other person if something you said or did rubbed them the wrong way.

 

It's frustrating to do something that you worked on, something that is you trying your best, and have it not work. I think this is one of the things we learn in the dojo. You just have to let it go and figure out what else you can do.

 

1 hour ago, Kishi said:

...

 

I suspect this preoccupation with perfect conduct is probably going to be another thing I have to interrogate.

 

Striving to be better is excellent. Perfection, not so much. You are living among the humans, not the angels.

 

[Kishi]

4 hours ago, Mistr said:

I am there with you in feeling like I should get rewarded for behaving well. If I do all my chores, things should go better, right?

 

Unfortunately the universe doesn't work that way. I smell a carryover from Calvinist preaching - do good and you will be rewarded (in heaven and on earth). Coercive rhetoric to get the lower classes to work harder. 

 

We see a lot of the same mindset in fitness discussions. Just do the right mix of strength, endurance and mobility work, the right volume of sets x reps, and you will have the body of your dreams.

 

But will you be happy?

 

It's clear that not having your basic needs met will make you unhappy. After that the question gets personal. Do you care what kind of food you eat? Are you happier living in one place or traveling? Living by yourself or with a bunch of people? Do you get grouchy when you've been off the mats too long? Do the dirty dishes bother you or can you let them stack up until you are out of clean plates?

 

Answering those questions will make a lot more difference than doing the things you think you should do.

 

Those are good starting points. I'll have to keep them in mind.

 

4 hours ago, Mistr said:

What you describe is a thing in relationships - even if there are no "errors" at all. I'm not talking about big things like disrespecting someone or being inconsiderate too often. I believe you are already doing your best to be considerate. No, I'm talking about differences in preferences. You like to train martial arts, exercise, read SF and do gaming with friends. All of those are positive things in your life. They might not fit for someone else. You might like to sleep in a dark cave and someone else might prefer having lights because they have nightmares. No value judgement, just different preferences. You already know these things, you've made choices about what kind of life you want. If someone else doesn't want to allow time and space for them, you are not a good match, however much you might like each other.

 

Funny you should mention that.

 

So, the Lady and I went and talked. It was the breakup talk.

 

I didn't think it was going to be at first. We agreed that there are some fundamental differences between us and it turned out that a lot of what I thought was me being supportive of her she took as me shutting her down and not giving her space to feel and express what she needed to. I could totally see how that would be a thing, and she basically decided to pattern out a year's worth of that and decided that it wasn't worth it. So instead of telling me that I'd done wrong and letting me fix it, she told me I done wrong and that it was fundamental issues that wasn't going to be fixed.

 

She wanted out, and she really desperately wanted me to be okay with it. And I tried to be. I really, really tried to be, but she couldn't let it go. She didn't give me the space to really sit and process my emotions, so she dragged the conversation on and it went past the point where I could sustain what I needed to sustain. We got about to the end and I offhandedly made a comment in a way which I thought was in keeping with the spirit of the thing and she took as me lashing out in anger. And all I could see was that I'd hurt her, but I didn't understand how or why.

 

So, she left in a huff, and I'm out a relationship because I couldn't be a perfect gentleman in the way that she wanted.

 

Heh. It's funny. She told me that the only reason she'd even agreed to talk with me about this was that she could tell I was a good person who was trying. I told her that my intentions didn't matter as much as the harm that I'd clearly done and couldn't seem to find my way to not doing. I guess I was right.

 

4 hours ago, Mistr said:

I understand that you have worked hard to behave honorably and not hurt people. I admire that. The tough part is that even when you are doing your best, you may accidentally hurt someone. Sometimes you are put between a rock and a hard place of choosing who is likely to get hurt. Being considerate of other people requires a certain amount of information about their needs and history. For example, you know not to use the N-word in referring to people, because of all its history and emotional baggage. I expect there is a similar word that should not be used to describe the native people of Australia, but I don't know that word. Since Australians speak English, I might use that word by accident, not knowing it is loaded in some contexts. I would be embarrassed and apologetic if someone pointed out to me how I had been hurtful. Hopefully I would learn and make more informed choices moving forward.

 

This stuff is hard for everyone. You see links on FB all the time about how (not) to talk to people with cancer, or people who are grieving. Even when people really want to be helpful, they often say the wrong thing. You do your best and try to learn to do better.

 

To make it even more challenging, behaviors that are perfectly fine with some people are not fine with others. Maybe from cultural expectations, maybe from personal history, maybe just by personal preference. You often won't know in advance and will have to watch for clues.

 

In a perfect world, people would say something when you get too close to a line. In this world, you are a tall, muscular white man. Lots of people will do a risk assessment and not say anything if they don't know you well. Sorry to say, you are in a demographic that has a bad reputation for violence when asked to modify their behavior. You are going to need to be proactive in asking the other person if something you said or did rubbed them the wrong way.

 

Oh, you are so. Right. But it also has to be in a way that the other person can understand, because it's not guaranteed that what you think you're saying is what the other person is hearing.

 

4 hours ago, Mistr said:

It's frustrating to do something that you worked on, something that is you trying your best, and have it not work. I think this is one of the things we learn in the dojo. You just have to let it go and figure out what else you can do.

 

What I can do is my best to understand that who I am now isn't who I am always. It's not immutable. I can change. I can learn. Just... didn't get there in time this time.

 

5 hours ago, Mistr said:

Striving to be better is excellent. Perfection, not so much. You are living among the humans, not the angels.

 

I needed to hear that. Because right now it feels like the fact that I failed to be perfect is the only thing that matters.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

8 hours ago, Kishi said:

a lot of what I thought was me being supportive of her she took as me shutting her down and not giving her space to feel and express what she needed to

 

8 hours ago, Kishi said:

She didn't give me the space to really sit and process my emotions, so she dragged the conversation on and it went past the point where I could sustain what I needed to sustain.

 

I don't know if the parallelism in this has occurred to you, so I just wanted to point it out.

8 hours ago, Kishi said:

 

So, she left in a huff, and I'm out a relationship because I couldn't be a perfect gentleman in the way that she wanted.

 

This really brings back memories of how I'd feel after a fight.

 

I may only be projecting my past experiences, but the conversation you described reminds me a lot of what I dealt with when married to my ex. I realize now why I was so quick to call toxic earlier when SaraKingdom pointed it out. It's because the way you describe yourself in a lot of these situations reminds me of how I described myself when I was in my first marriage. It also explains to me why I was so quick to jump on telling you to work through the "I don't deserve to be happy" bit earlier; In seeing myself in you I wanted to help you so I could help me. I will say that where I was before I did all that counseling before, during, and after the divorce, I was in a place where I was very vulnerable to toxic people. The counselor straight out told me if I didn't work through those issues I'd be very vulnerable to ending up with another toxic person because I'd have the same blindspots I had last time. Also, people who take and take and take love getting with people pleasers, because people pleasers are easier to manipulate into treating the toxic person like the center of the universe. 

 

So, I saw patterns in you that reminded me of myself. I've been conscious for a while of the thought that you might be prone to drawing toxic people around you, but not why. Now I know why. In addition, I saw patterns in your interactions with the most recent lady in question that reminded me of my ex, so of course I pounced on it.

 

Now, to be fair, as SaraKingdom pointed out, it's not OK for me to call Toxic on people I know very little about. I do think in the future it's ok to say, "Hey, I'm seeing a pattern here that might be indicative of something to watch out for." That way I'm addressing my interpretation of behaviors, and not my interpretation of people. 

 

 

[sarakingdom]

I'm real sorry, Kishi. Sometimes it's a deal-breaker. Women often have really long histories with feeling emotionally performative expectations are being put on them, and can nope out awfully fast if it's happening where they want to feel emotionally safe. Which is to say, it's not a blame thing or a failure. It's just a mismatch of where you were and where she was in terms of ability to negotiate that. Your needs this time around didn't match. It's common. It's not your fault. You did your absolute best, so did she, it can happen that way.

 

You got to that place to negotiate that issue, though, and that's a major win. It's a relationship that helped you level up, even if it didn't last. So it's definitely not a failure, but a useful learning experience. It hurts, but you won't be in this place forever. You'll process these feelings and be stronger next time for what you learned about yourself and communication this time. Sometimes the fights you lose teach you more than the fights you win.

 

I'm sorry she put you in that same emotionally performative position. She should, ideally, have been able to give you space to tap out and process. The mental programming that's making you feel failure right now, she's got mental programming that has socialized her to appease men and feel threatened if they're upset. (That's not you, that's instinctive behavioral response, like just above primate hierarchy dynamics.) That added the extra urgency to her desire not to hurt you because she liked you. The programming people don't see really messes them up in situations. They act on it without questioning it.

 

It has only been quite recently, and due partly to the influence of friends of mine who were quite wise, that I realized the value of taking time over difficult emotions. I can let them not feel good now, without using them to decide "how things are". My emotions don't know how things are. They know things like how hard my fight or flight response is kicking in based on my situation, and that fight or flight response can be totally wrong. It often is, because in the modern world, it can treat an unhappy boss like a survival threat, and it's not.

 

So I used to think it was important to "resolve" emotional issues quickly without avoiding them, and that'd resolve the emotions. I didn't realize that there really was no quick resolution to a process that involved a ton of chemicals flooding my body and that my brain needed a ton of time to recontextualize without those chemicals being quite so dominant. And the avoidance in that situation was actually me trying to avoid feeling bad, so I was rushing a process that I couldn't rush. 

 

Now I give myself time to feel bad, without giving it too much credibility in the moment. I treat like the hormonal version being drunk; I'm under the influence of a bunch of chemicals that are shorting out my ability to react at my best. Time will modify those emotions, and I'll better be able to decide where I am and what to do. My time is better spent trying to relax and come down from that, than it is spent deciding how to respond. I want the wiser, calmer me to respond to the more difficult situations, and that isn't who's there right now, you know?

 

Which is all the long way of saying, that's why I value being able to tap out of conversations, and it helps me to have a vocabulary and understanding around it, so I can explain to people in tough situations that I need to set a boundary on the conversation for now. (Heck, so I can explain it to myself, honestly, because my instinctive reaction is not so helpful.) I need to pace myself on the tough stuff, and I need time to process difficult emotions so I don't react impulsively on them.

 

Anyway. Give yourself time. (If you're unhappy about the way the conversation ended, give her time, too, at least a week, and you can let your calmer self think about where things are and if that's a misunderstanding you want to clear up before you guys move on.) But basically, just give yourself time to come down off that chemical bender before you start trusting your insights into what happened. Anything telling you that you failed, tell it that it's just a bit of debris kicked up by the emotional churn, and you're gonna go watch Firefly until its burnt itself out.

[sarakingdom]

3 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

This really brings back memories of how I'd feel after a fight. 

 

I'm having a bunch of trouble figuring out what you're saying in this section, Tank, and it kind of reads to me like "I'm not gonna say she's toxic, but she's probably kind of toxic".

 

I would like to point out that the quote you pulled was explicitly Kishi projecting a motivation onto her. He doesn't actually know what was going on in her head. Or what she was actually feeling. He made an interpretation and ascribed it to her, which is ordinarily fine and can be quite a funny way of expressing one's own feelings in the form of ironic pique. (I laughed, then felt bad about that, because I'm not entirely sure Kishi had written it ironically.) Given the context of all the emotional misreading and projection here, I think it's worth looking closer at the line you pulled out.

 

In this case, aside from the phasing indicating a projection into her head, it has a real tell that it's Kishi's contribution to the situation he's describing, and not hers: the focus on perfection. The only person we know for a fact has expectations of perfection for Kishi is Kishi.  So when he's recounting what happened as, "God, I couldn't be 100% perfect, so she was mad at me, how unfair could she be," be aware that, first, he realistically has no idea what she was thinking, and, second, the person who gets mad at Kishi for not being 100% perfect is, in fact, Kishi. We know she walked away seeming upset and probably there was a misunderstanding or an emotionally impulsive comment that wasn't taken in stride, that's all. We know that Kishi is unfairly angry at Kishi for not being perfect. If there's toxic behavior going on here, I'm seeing it from Kishi to Kishi. (I do, in fact, think Kishi has a history of this, and judging by the people concerned that he'd self-sacrifice to a damaging degree, I don't think I'm alone.) We know very, very little about her. Interpreting her is an internet diagnosis of a stranger through a filter that has no chill in relationship situations, a known bit of self-hatred, and some very open projection going on.

 

So I'm still going to (gently and with kindness) push back a little on your current preparedness to counsel Kishi without projection from your first marriage, particularly when the quote that resonated most strongly with you is the one that's most clearly and openly a projection of Kishi's self criticism onto her. I think both your growth and emotional strength, and Kishi's, would be better served if you stepped back from applying that interpretive lens to the situation. Whether it's correct or not, and I suspect not, I don't think you're currently in a good emotional place to be the guy who does that.

 

So, you too, give yourself time. Process. Let yourself come down from a few days of very demanding personal realizations. There's a lot of debris getting kicked up by your emotional churn, too.

[Kishi]

2 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

I don't know if the parallelism in this has occurred to you, so I just wanted to point it out.

 

Not until this morning on my way into work, but I did see it. It's a good lesson, for all that the teaching is painful.

 

Now a price has been paid for it, and I need to work in myself to make it count for something.

 

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

I'm real sorry, Kishi. Sometimes it's a deal-breaker. Women often have really long histories with feeling emotionally performative expectations are being put on them, and can nope out awfully fast if it's happening where they want to feel emotionally safe. Which is to say, it's not a blame thing or a failure. It's just a mismatch of where you were and where she was in terms of ability to negotiate that. Your needs this time around didn't match. It's common. It's not your fault. You did your absolute best, so did she, it can happen that way.

 

You got to that place to negotiate that issue, though, and that's a major win. It's a relationship that helped you level up, even if it didn't last. So it's definitely not a failure, but a useful learning experience. It hurts, but you won't be in this place forever. You'll process these feelings and be stronger next time for what you learned about yourself and communication this time. Sometimes the fights you lose teach you more than the fights you win.

 

Yeah, losses are only negative if one fails to learn. I'm probably a little too raw over it right now to talk about it properly but there is good in this. It's farther than I ever got and it pushed me to really begin to see the programming I was living out and not just that but that I had the ability to question it and change it.

 

2 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

I'm sorry she put you in that same emotionally performative position. She should, ideally, have been able to give you space to tap out and process. The mental programming that's making you feel failure right now, she's got mental programming that has socialized her to appease men and feel threatened if they're upset. (That's not you, that's instinctive behavioral response, like just above primate hierarchy dynamics.) That added the extra urgency to her desire not to hurt you because she liked you. The programming people don't see really messes them up in situations. They act on it without questioning it.

 

Yeah. I can see that now. Probably not as clearly as I will be able to, but it's at least something I can appreciate ATM. I still feel too much like I failed, and all the loudest voices in my head talking about how I'm just this dangerous person who shouldn't be close to anyone are a little too dominant for me to really get what's going on.

 

2 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

Now I give myself time to feel bad, without giving it too much credibility in the moment. I treat like the hormonal version being drunk; I'm under the influence of a bunch of chemicals that are shorting out my ability to react at my best. Time will modify those emotions, and I'll better be able to decide where I am and what to do. My time is better spent trying to relax and come down from that, than it is spent deciding how to respond. I want the wiser, calmer me to respond to the more difficult situations, and that isn't who's there right now, you know?

 

Which is all the long way of saying, that's why I value being able to tap out of conversations, and it helps me to have a vocabulary and understanding around it, so I can explain to people in tough situations that I need to set a boundary on the conversation for now. (Heck, so I can explain it to myself, honestly, because my instinctive reaction is not so helpful.) I need to pace myself on the tough stuff, and I need time to process difficult emotions so I don't react impulsively on them.

 

God and that was exactly what happened. If I'd just had the wisdom to walk away, this would have ended... well, differently. I can't know whether it would have been better or worse for all that I think I can. But I would have preferred a better outcome, even a cleaner split than what I got.

 

2 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

Anyway. Give yourself time. (If you're unhappy about the way the conversation ended, give her time, too, at least a week, and you can let your calmer self think about where things are and if that's a misunderstanding you want to clear up before you guys move on.) But basically, just give yourself time to come down off that chemical bender before you start trusting your insights into what happened. Anything telling you that you failed, tell it that it's just a bit of debris kicked up by the emotional churn, and you're gonna go watch Firefly until its burnt itself out.

 

I will. In time, I'll even believe it.

 

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

He made an interpretation and ascribed it to her, which is ordinarily fine and can be quite a funny way of expressing one's own feelings in the form of ironic pique. (I laughed, then felt bad about that, because I'm not entirely sure Kishi had written it ironically.)

 

Honestly, I'm not sure either. Bit of both? One of the things that really got to me during the inciting incident was a sense of performative failure. Like, there I was, trying to be the person she needed to be, and I couldn't figure it out, and she didn't tell me how to fix it until she was ready to move on from me. So, some irony (obviously she didn't expect me to be perfect) and some reality (I expected myself to be).

 

1 hour ago, sarakingdom said:

In this case, aside from the phasing indicating a projection into her head, it has a real tell that it's Kishi's contribution to the situation he's describing, and not hers: the focus on perfection. The only person we know for a fact has expectations of perfection for Kishi is Kishi.  So when he's recounting what happened as, "God, I couldn't be 100% perfect, so she was mad at me, how unfair could she be," be aware that, first, he realistically has no idea what she was thinking, and, second, the person who gets mad at Kishi for not being 100% perfect is, in fact, Kishi. We know she walked away seeming upset and probably there was a misunderstanding or an emotionally impulsive comment that wasn't taken in stride, that's all. We know that Kishi is unfairly angry at Kishi for not being perfect. If there's toxic behavior going on here, I'm seeing it from Kishi to Kishi. (I do, in fact, think Kishi has a history of this, and judging by the people concerned that he'd self-sacrifice to a damaging degree, I don't think I'm alone.) We know very, very little about her. Interpreting her is an internet diagnosis of a stranger through a filter that has no chill in relationship situations, a known bit of self-hatred, and some very open projection going on.

 

All accurate, at least as it pertains to me. Tank, please, man, listen to Sara on this. I'm not a good lens for understanding a whole lot of what's happened right now and my Ex deserves way better than I'm giving y'all to understand. It's throwing your ability to counsel. I'm sorry that I can't give you a clear enough picture to help you help me better, because I know it's in your heart to want to be kind and to heal hurting people. But there's something poisonous inside of me right now and I can't really know if it's getting at something in you but given our pattern of mutual catastrophizing I can't shake the feeling that it might be so.

 

Let me attempt to be clear: my Ex is not a toxic person. I am, because I ultimately believe that I'm not good enough or worthy of basic human emotional needs being met. I believe that I have to earn them, and I have no sense of what's appropriate in terms of earning those things or not, and there's a long broken pattern in my life that informs that belief such that I can't yet bring myself to believe it isn't true.

 

I will say that the reason I think she walked away upset is that after I made an emotionally impulsive comment, she told me I was hurtful in what I said and how I said it, and that apparently the entire couple hour's worth of conversation hadn't meant anything to me at all. I couldn't find my way to expressing my pain appropriately, and she said we could be friends some day but not right now and it was up to me as to how this played out before she walked away.

 

It's not anybody's fault. I'm limited in terms of what I can understand about her motivations, but I have to be charitable and assume that she was trying to do the best she could, just like me, and our bests just weren't a good match for each other in a moment when I really wish they would have been.

 

I do respect that you saw that pattern and I want you to feel free to call that out, but I'm asking you to extend some charity. At least on this one. I objectively have had some toxic people around me that I've successfully managed to mitigate, but she wasn't one of them, and I'd ask you to think better of her than that if you don't already.

[Mistr]

I'm sorry that things ended in a frustrating and painful conversation. You did your best and were not able to get what you wanted. That sucks. Lots.

 

11 hours ago, Kishi said:

I didn't think it was going to be at first. We agreed that there are some fundamental differences between us and it turned out that a lot of what I thought was me being supportive of her she took as me shutting her down and not giving her space to feel and express what she needed to. I could totally see how that would be a thing, and she basically decided to pattern out a year's worth of that and decided that it wasn't worth it. So instead of telling me that I'd done wrong and letting me fix it, she told me I done wrong and that it was fundamental issues that wasn't going to be fixed.

 

She wanted out, and she really desperately wanted me to be okay with it. And I tried to be. I really, really tried to be, but she couldn't let it go. She didn't give me the space to really sit and process my emotions, so she dragged the conversation on and it went past the point where I could sustain what I needed to sustain. We got about to the end and I offhandedly made a comment in a way which I thought was in keeping with the spirit of the thing and she took as me lashing out in anger. And all I could see was that I'd hurt her, but I didn't understand how or why.

 

So, she left in a huff, and I'm out a relationship because I couldn't be a perfect gentleman in the way that she wanted.

 

I don't think your conclusion fits with your observations here. She wanted a set of things, some of which she had not communicated to you. She did not check in with you about behavior that bothered her, either at the time or at a distance afterwards. Even after talking about relationship issues with you, she misinterpreted things you said. 

 

I'm not seeing where the problem was on your side. You are correct that you didn't give her what she wanted, but it seems that she never gave you a chance by making clear just what she wanted from you.

 

11 hours ago, Kishi said:

Heh. It's funny. She told me that the only reason she'd even agreed to talk with me about this was that she could tell I was a good person who was trying. I told her that my intentions didn't matter as much as the harm that I'd clearly done and couldn't seem to find my way to not doing. I guess I was right.

 

The fact that she can see you are a good person who was trying confirms what we've been saying. You were doing your part. Maybe you want to improve your mind-reading skills. Or maybe you will ask some additional questions the next time you start dating someone.

 

From everything you've said, I don't see where you actually caused any harm. You had some fun times hanging out and talking. You went to some activities together. You probably did not do all the things on her list for a perfect romantic companion, but she didn't show you her list. Not understanding someone and not agreeing to everything they want is NOT causing harm.

 

11 hours ago, Kishi said:

Oh, you are so. Right. But it also has to be in a way that the other person can understand, because it's not guaranteed that what you think you're saying is what the other person is hearing.

 

Oh my yes. This is a major problem in relationships.

 

11 hours ago, Kishi said:

What I can do is my best to understand that who I am now isn't who I am always. It's not immutable. I can change. I can learn. Just... didn't get there in time this time.

 

Right. You will learn from this and level up. Even though right now you have a bunch of bruises and feel awful. Those will heal and you will do better next time.

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

I've tried to be as transparent as I can. I'm not trying to justify calling her toxic, nor am I building a case to convince anyone she is. I'm saying I see MYSELF in Kishi, and that what helped me might help you Kishi. In saying that, I'm trying to say that when you work on yourself and get healthier you'll be less prone to being taken advantage of by people with toxic behaviors. Your ex is beside the point, I'm not talking about her. How you describe yourself in that encounter is very similar to how I'd describe myself in the past, and it wasn't helpful for me. It's not helpful for you now. Label the behaviors if you have to, but please do not label yourself. Trust me, it only holds you back. The simplest way to say this is as you learn to love yourself better many things will improve.

[sarakingdom]

1 hour ago, Kishi said:

Now a price has been paid for it, and I need to work in myself to make it count for something. 

 

None of this is an economic exchange. Not happiness, not wisdom. There's a kinder way of thinking about your situation than in terms of paying prices and earning things. We learn from experience and get better.

 

(And you're not actually obligated to do anything with this experience. There's no imperative. You could ignore it, if you wanted to. What I think is true is that you want to grow from it. There's actually a vast difference between those two statements, and it reminds me of Mistr's mention of Calvinist control through morality. One of those statements is you treating yourself as something that is inherently bad and in need of forceful correction to develop any worth, and the other is recognizing that you're a person who had a choice and is consistently picking the one focused on improvement, and thus behaving very well indeed.)

 

I'm suddenly getting the urge to recommend Pratchett's "Unseen Academicals", actually, but other readers will have to tell me if that's a good idea or not.

 

1 hour ago, Kishi said:

But there's something poisonous inside of me right now

 

No, there's not. There's nothing poisonous in you. There's something human in you. It is learning to be skillful and it's hurting at the moment. Don't demonize yourself for being human. Humanity is a wonderful yet very flawed thing, and valuing it includes coming to terms with it in yourself as well as others.

 

Quick question: you're in the dojo, and you've got a guy working on stuff, and he gets upset that he can't get that day's technique, saying there's something wrong with him. Your teacher sends you to deal with him. What do you say?

 

1 hour ago, Kishi said:

It's not anybody's fault. I'm limited in terms of what I can understand about her motivations, but I have to be charitable and assume that she was trying to do the best she could, just like me, and our bests just weren't a good match for each other in a moment when I really wish they would have been. 

 

I believe this is usually the truth, and suspect it very probably is here, even if it's difficult to hang onto that bit of maturity in the face of stuff going downhill. (I usually have to repeat it a few times, and don't totally believe it till I've calmed down.) That's probably true of both the relationship and that specific unpleasant conversation. In situations where no one is at their best, the outcomes can get a little rocky, just from the feedback loop of everyone being a little out of control and below par.

 

You're doing really well with this, Kishi, seriously. You're looking at this very thoughtfully and maturely and generously, and are just having some issues treating Kishi that way. (But, honestly, I think this is also the kindest I've ever seen you be to Kishi, as well. I truly am super, super proud of what you're doing here.) If it starts getting to you, just remember that it's not today's problem to do anything but let the storm pass; taking stock and rebuilding the house is for when the rain stops.

 

(It's like rest and fitness; people think it's being passive, but it's not. It's a necessary stillness for recovery.)

[Tanktimus the Encourager]

3 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

 

I'm suddenly getting the urge to recommend Pratchett's "Unseen Academicals", actually, but other readers will have to tell me if that's a good idea or not.

 

It's a good idea. 

[sarakingdom]

9 minutes ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

It's a good idea. 

 

It's good to know there truly is a Pratchett book for every circumstance.

[sarakingdom]

3 hours ago, Kishi said:

Let me attempt to be clear: my Ex is not a toxic person. I am, because I ultimately believe that I'm not good enough or worthy of basic human emotional needs being met. 

 

I missed this one, Kishi, but meant to reply to it - Tank has it right, it's more useful, and more accurate, to label the behavior and not the person. We all have or are capable of some toxic behaviors, but it doesn't mean that what we are, the force we represent to the people around us, is toxic. It's a good distinction to make, given how hard your self-talk is on your worth and identity when unpleasant things happen to you.

 

So also to be clear, neither of you are toxic people. But some of your self-talk is a little toxic to you. It's not you. It's an ingrained habit you have, and don't need to keep.

 

Also, still impressed at you having this much equanimity in the middle of all this. (I would not normally, under these circumstances, give such a dispassionately neutral description of this situation as an information flow with people as filters, and questioned the wisdom of doing that. Thanks for rolling with it, man. It helps me sometimes to weigh what I feel and what I know, and I had my fingers crossed that it would be good perspective, not bad perspective.)

[Kishi]

21 hours ago, Mistr said:

I don't think your conclusion fits with your observations here. She wanted a set of things, some of which she had not communicated to you. She did not check in with you about behavior that bothered her, either at the time or at a distance afterwards. Even after talking about relationship issues with you, she misinterpreted things you said. 

 

I'm not seeing where the problem was on your side. You are correct that you didn't give her what she wanted, but it seems that she never gave you a chance by making clear just what she wanted from you.

 

Yeah. That's something that's been jumping out at me more as the distance has increased. Like, even though I felt that there was a bigger problem than I understood, I figured I was going to be given the chance to right things. I honestly had no idea that it had got so bad that she was just gonna nope out.

 

21 hours ago, Mistr said:

The fact that she can see you are a good person who was trying confirms what we've been saying. You were doing your part. Maybe you want to improve your mind-reading skills. Or maybe you will ask some additional questions the next time you start dating someone.

 

From everything you've said, I don't see where you actually caused any harm. You had some fun times hanging out and talking. You went to some activities together. You probably did not do all the things on her list for a perfect romantic companion, but she didn't show you her list. Not understanding someone and not agreeing to everything they want is NOT causing harm.

 

This was actually super important for me to hear and I really didn't begin to internalize until I'd come back over and read at the end of the day. Thank you for saying that.

 

20 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

The simplest way to say this is as you learn to love yourself better many things will improve.

 

Ah. This I can see. I thank you for it.

 

19 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

None of this is an economic exchange. Not happiness, not wisdom. There's a kinder way of thinking about your situation than in terms of paying prices and earning things. We learn from experience and get better.

 

That, I'm afraid, is something I'm going to have to take your word on for now. Learning to accept that I didn't harm the Ex by failing to be the person she wanted is one thing. But in my head, the whole thing still frames up in economic terms - I earned this experience on the basis of my conduct, and it cost me in terms of time and energy and the loss of a relationship.

 

I really appreciate your kindness in this, but I'm not at a point where I can hear it yet.

 

19 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

No, there's not. There's nothing poisonous in you. There's something human in you. It is learning to be skillful and it's hurting at the moment. Don't demonize yourself for being human. Humanity is a wonderful yet very flawed thing, and valuing it includes coming to terms with it in yourself as well as others.

 

This also is difficult to hear, but easier. The behavioral patterns that have gone toxic give rise to a thought which goes that there's something uniquely ugly in my humanity that I have to compensate for, and I have to do as much as I can to prove to others that I'm worthy of even basic esteem and affection.

 

The fact that I can't find the ugliness when I go looking for it is still very strange to me.

 

20 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

Quick question: you're in the dojo, and you've got a guy working on stuff, and he gets upset that he can't get that day's technique, saying there's something wrong with him. Your teacher sends you to deal with him. What do you say?

 

I honestly don't know. While striking has a genuine response ("Hey, man, let's cool down and break the technique down, see where the problem is"), in grappling it's possible that the technique might not work as it's been taught because of bodies and differences. But even then I guess I'd say something to the effect of, "Well, if you're looking to get x done, you might have to do y instead."

 

The underlying implication being that there's nothing wrong with him; he just needs a different approach.

 

20 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

I believe this is usually the truth, and suspect it very probably is here, even if it's difficult to hang onto that bit of maturity in the face of stuff going downhill. (I usually have to repeat it a few times, and don't totally believe it till I've calmed down.) That's probably true of both the relationship and that specific unpleasant conversation. In situations where no one is at their best, the outcomes can get a little rocky, just from the feedback loop of everyone being a little out of control and below par.

 

You're doing really well with this, Kishi, seriously. You're looking at this very thoughtfully and maturely and generously, and are just having some issues treating Kishi that way. (But, honestly, I think this is also the kindest I've ever seen you be to Kishi, as well. I truly am super, super proud of what you're doing here.) If it starts getting to you, just remember that it's not today's problem to do anything but let the storm pass; taking stock and rebuilding the house is for when the rain stops.

 

(It's like rest and fitness; people think it's being passive, but it's not. It's a necessary stillness for recovery.)

 

Thank you. If it weren't for y'all, I don't know that I would be.

 

19 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

Also, still impressed at you having this much equanimity in the middle of all this. (I would not normally, under these circumstances, give such a dispassionately neutral description of this situation as an information flow with people as filters, and questioned the wisdom of doing that. Thanks for rolling with it, man. It helps me sometimes to weigh what I feel and what I know, and I had my fingers crossed that it would be good perspective, not bad perspective.)

 

HAHAHA. Equanimity is not a word I would have used to describe myself yesterday. I vacillated pretty hard between being listless and still and wanting to break down weeping, and I kept having to pull myself back from those edges and focus.

 

But time helps. Time and interrogation. I'm not quite firing on all eight emotional cylinders yet (although if I'm honest, I probably haven't been for a really long time), but it is better today than it was yesterday.

 

*

 

So, I gotta admit, I didn't really want to get out on the mats last night. I forced myself to go anyway. I didn't think that being home and stewing was a good idea, and I thought that getting back in touch with my normal would help to stabilize things.

 

It did. Grappling and striking both went well. I didn't exactly have a dominant performance, but I did what I wanted to do, and sometimes that's all you really need. Picked up some things to work on, did some things well.

 

After that was strength work, which felt good to get back to. Did some research and found that my bench dips could be what's bothering my shoulder. Gonna need to do something about that - might have to just edge them off for a bit.

 

Anyway. Food and feels tonight with friends, which will ultimately be a rest. Cool.

[WhiteGhost]

I haven't had a lot to add to this conversation, but I have really enjoyed following along because I have been learning a lot about myself, especially from @sarakingdom's wise words.  Very god stuff here.

 

Good vibes going out to you Kishi, and I just want to add another voice of support and friendship for you  

[sarakingdom]

10 hours ago, Kishi said:

"Hey, man, let's cool down and break the technique down, see where the problem is"

 

10 hours ago, Kishi said:

"Well, if you're looking to get x done, you might have to do y instead."

 

10 hours ago, Kishi said:

The underlying implication being that there's nothing wrong with him; he just needs a different approach. 

 

Sounds to me like Dojo Kishi has a really good handle on how to work through difficult and frustrating things, and make them useful learning experiences. Maybe you should ask that guy for advice more often.

 

I'm not even kidding, actually. The sort of learning model we use in the dojo is seriously useful for all this difficult personal improvement stuff. You're training the same things, in some ways - perception, attention, instinctive reaction - and need many of the same approaches - repetition, patience, figuring out how to adapt a technique you see to you. It's a practice, and a process, like learning a martial art. If you can pull that dojo mindset into other parts of your life, I think you're going to find it really helpful. And it may be the tool in your pocket that's strong enough to work on that self-talk right now, because you've invested a lot of time into developing and training Dojo Kishi.

 

(See also: meditation as a mental exercise of dragging the brain back over a certain behavior over and over in training conditions in order to preform the maneuver live. It was actually dojo training that helped me understand what meditation even was, by explaining the learning philosophy behind it. And also told me a lot about the brain and emotions and attention and how to train them. Science kind of says it, but culturally we don't think it, so it was a useful counterexample. And it's directly hitting at these issues of keeping your perceptions clear from the impact of your emotions in tough situations, and being kinder with oneself, and so on.)

 

So the dojo metaphor ain't just cuz we're monks and it's topical, it's because that's actually the best approach to stuff like this I've found. It's a mindset that will serve you well.

 

[sarakingdom]

1 hour ago, WhiteGhost said:

I have been learning a lot about myself, especially from @sarakingdom's wise words. 

 

Learning things like "there is an Unseen Academicals-sized hole in my life"?

[sarakingdom]

Also, someone in Firefox's recommended links department is stalking us: https://ideas.ted.com/the-3-core-skills-that-every-person-needs-for-healthy-romantic-relationships/

 

 

[WhiteGhost]

30 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

 

Learning things like "there is an Unseen Academicals-sized hole in my life"?

More like "given that I am about as good at recognizing and addressing my own character flaws as Rincewind is at magic, it's amazing that I have as good of a relationship as I do"

[sarakingdom]

4 minutes ago, WhiteGhost said:

More like "given that I am about as good at recognizing and addressing my own character flaws as Rincewind is at magic, it's amazing that I have as good of a relationship as I do"

 

Growing up as one of 37 children has to count for something when it comes to conflict resolution skills.

[WhiteGhost]

11 minutes ago, sarakingdom said:

 

Growing up as one of 37 children has to count for something when it comes to conflict resolution skills.

That or it's close cousin, conflict avoidance.  Because if you are having problems with a given person, there are plenty of other fish in that bowl  

[Kishi]

14 hours ago, WhiteGhost said:

I haven't had a lot to add to this conversation, but I have really enjoyed following along because I have been learning a lot about myself, especially from @sarakingdom's wise words.  Very god stuff here.

 

Good vibes going out to you Kishi, and I just want to add another voice of support and friendship for you  

 

Hey, thanks, man. I appreciate that.

 

13 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

I'm not even kidding, actually. The sort of learning model we use in the dojo is seriously useful for all this difficult personal improvement stuff. You're training the same things, in some ways - perception, attention, instinctive reaction - and need many of the same approaches - repetition, patience, figuring out how to adapt a technique you see to you. It's a practice, and a process, like learning a martial art. If you can pull that dojo mindset into other parts of your life, I think you're going to find it really helpful. And it may be the tool in your pocket that's strong enough to work on that self-talk right now, because you've invested a lot of time into developing and training Dojo Kishi.

 

You know, in some ways, I've kind of started to? Like, when we broke up on Monday, I tried to hear what she was saying in terms of how I'd failed to meet her needs, and the biggest thing that I could have done would have been to show an active consideration for how she was doing. Which I thought I was and turned out I wasn't. It didn't mean I didn't want to; it was just a technique that I didn't use very well and may in fact have not understood how to even use. Which, to continue with the metaphor, may have been informed by certain pathologies in my "movement" (ie my mentality and my framing and my selfishness in terms of wanting a certain outcome instead of rolling with what was in front of me).

 

13 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

(See also: meditation as a mental exercise of dragging the brain back over a certain behavior over and over in training conditions in order to preform the maneuver live. It was actually dojo training that helped me understand what meditation even was, by explaining the learning philosophy behind it. And also told me a lot about the brain and emotions and attention and how to train them. Science kind of says it, but culturally we don't think it, so it was a useful counterexample. And it's directly hitting at these issues of keeping your perceptions clear from the impact of your emotions in tough situations, and being kinder with oneself, and so on.)

 

Well, that's something I'll have to learn, then. I'm lately using it for stillness of mind more than active interrogation; I haven't really figured out how to go from passive observer to active observer. Or if that's even an appropriate way of looking at it yet.

 

12 hours ago, sarakingdom said:

Also, someone in Firefox's recommended links department is stalking us: https://ideas.ted.com/the-3-core-skills-that-every-person-needs-for-healthy-romantic-relationships/

 

 

 

Friggin' uncanny.

 

*

 

So. Went and hung out with friends. Tried to provide a bit of a debrief, as they're mutual friends with the Ex, and while I wasn't pressed for anything I got the sense they wanted to know what was up. They were very mindful of me, which I appreciated.

 

Finished up season 1 of Jack Ryan. It was enjoyable. My friend thought it was a very Leftist take on the genre and I was like "Oh my sweet summer child." That discussion at least felt like familiar ground.

 

Tonight, grappling and Q&D.

[Sloth the Enduring]

What are you doing for Q&D?