• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

KingZora

Best carbs for a refeed?

Recommended Posts

I am considering doing my first carb refeed since I have been losin body fat... getting down to the point where it seems to be recommended to give it a shot.  Next week on one of my heavy lifting days I plan to go after it with increased carbs and reduced fats for the day... so my question is what are the best high carb primal foods?  I already have a few sweet potatoes in stock, any other favorites?

 

Also if anyone is familiar with doing refeeds, should my average calorie intake remain the same as usual for the day? and what % of calories should come from carbs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good questions!  I'm looking into this now.  There is a great blog called crossfitters eat to perform on facebook (I don't see a regular web link).  I've been finding it really helpful.  Also, the book paleo for athletes.

 

I haven't put as much attention into this as I need to b/c I'm distracted by other stuff. 

 

Share what you find out.

 

Does beer count for carb back loading?  mwaaa haa haa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does beer count for carb back loading?  mwaaa haa haa

 

I wish it did... Friday is already a training day so I would have no issues there.

 

Well a bit of my own research (that doesn't involve reading a book, although I do now have a copy of it, so that's on my list of things to read) has lead me to an MDA article that I missed in my initial research.  Turns out he has written quite a few about carb refeeds/leptin/IF.  The most interesting part of this one was...

How Should You Do It?

As I mentioned in the refeed post, keep the fat content of your meals down when doing a carb feed – about 50 grams for the day. Why? For one, fat doesn’t have as much an effect on leptin as carbs or protein do, and two, since triglycerides have been shown to prevent leptin from crossing the blood-brain barrier (into the brain where leptin does its work), the increased postprandial triglycerides (which are a normal, temporary, physiological consequence of eating fat and different from elevatedfasting triglycerides) may reduce the effectiveness of leptin.

The greater you normally restrict carbs, the more you eat on your refeed. If you’re hanging out in the 100-150 gram range, you probably won’t need much – if any – of a boost in carbs. If you’re below 100 grams, I’d do 250 grams or so. If very low carb (below 50 grams), shoot for 300-350.

Do your refeed on a training day. Lift/sprint/run/hike/play big and, then, eat big. Your insulin sensitivity and leptin sensitivity will be high, your glycogen will be depleted, and you will basically be set up to store/burn the carbs and muscle energy rather than store it as fat. Leptin will increase regardless if you train or not, but doing it on a training day will mitigate any metabolic fallout.

Don’t use this as an excuse for stuffing your face with garbage. I mean, I suppose you could truly turn it into a cheat day and eat a couple pizzas, a gallon of ice cream, and a platter of crispy oxidized soybean oil-infused whatevers, but you’ll have better results with potatoes and yams (or even rice) and animals.

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-should-i-increase-carb-intake-for-weight-loss/#ixzz2PVK7UdSz

 

Pretty much an exact answer to my question of how much... it doesn't go into specific calorie levels, but based on the recommendations I should be able to shift it to exactly what I want.  Other sources, albeit some slightly crazy muscle builder forums at times... have recommended to keep your water intake very high during it as well.  Since water is needed to properly create and transport glycogen into the muscles.  Not drinking, or a dry refeed, won't create the bloated water weight feeling afterwards and will leave you looking more muscular, but for long term weight loss benefits drinking tons of water seems to be the best idea.  So in short, dry refeed to get ready for one day of looking muscular (body builders for a show), wet refeed for long term weight loss.  

 

That's what I have found so far... still no good answers for what kind of foods to eat though, it just says to avoid eating garbage... but I am going to have a hard time taking in 250g of carbs without touching any grains... I mean a medium sweet potato is only about 20-30g of carbs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so what's the advantage of doing this?

 

I do partake in sushi/nan/pita for "ethnic" days.  (I am a sucker for sushi, Moroccan  and Indian food) I try hard to limit the bread and eat the good stuff- but if I can do it in a more scientific manner- well I'm all about that!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The advantage is to restore muscle glycogen, and leptin levels... basically allow your homones and insulin response to "normalize" as I understand it.  The above already quoted article along with these other two from MDA seem to explain it pretty in depth.

 

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/carb-refeeding-and-weight-loss/#axzz21hBUtC00

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/leptin/#axzz21hBUtC00

 

I guess it helps to encourage fat loss once you get down in the low %'s... I just recently made it down to about 14% and Waldo had suggested giving it a try earlier when I asked about how to get to low body fat, so I am giving it a try now.

 

I love sushi and Indian food as well! There is an Indian place across the street from where I work that is to die for... but the last two times I have had rice it has bothered my stomach... so maybe that won't be the way to go for me :( I will have to give it a try sometime by itself and see if it is causing the problem or maybe it was just the massive quantities of sugar they put in some sauces haha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish it did... Friday is already a training day so I would have no issues there.

 

Well a bit of my own research (that doesn't involve reading a book, although I do now have a copy of it, so that's on my list of things to read) has lead me to an MDA article that I missed in my initial research.  Turns out he has written quite a few about carb refeeds/leptin/IF.  The most interesting part of this one was...

 

Pretty much an exact answer to my question of how much... it doesn't go into specific calorie levels, but based on the recommendations I should be able to shift it to exactly what I want.  Other sources, albeit some slightly crazy muscle builder forums at times... have recommended to keep your water intake very high during it as well.  Since water is needed to properly create and transport glycogen into the muscles.  Not drinking, or a dry refeed, won't create the bloated water weight feeling afterwards and will leave you looking more muscular, but for long term weight loss benefits drinking tons of water seems to be the best idea.  So in short, dry refeed to get ready for one day of looking muscular (body builders for a show), wet refeed for long term weight loss.  

 

That's what I have found so far... still no good answers for what kind of foods to eat though, it just says to avoid eating garbage... but I am going to have a hard time taking in 250g of carbs without touching any grains... I mean a medium sweet potato is only about 20-30g of carbs!

 

awesome stuff. Thank you!!!

 

but yeah, 250g of carbs?  seriously?  I'm using an evil protein shake and it's only 77g so for the whole day I'm probably topping out at 125-150 on my refeed.  GAH!  WTF?  I can't eat that much and I'm not a huge fan of the potato.

 

Parsnips are high in carbs but man, how much can you eat?

 

And it's stay away from too much fructose.... ugh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The advantage is to restore muscle glycogen, and leptin levels... basically allow your homones and insulin response to "normalize" as I understand it.  The above already quoted article along with these other two from MDA seem to explain it pretty in depth.

I guess it helps to encourage fat loss once you get down in the low %'s... I just recently made it down to about 14% and Waldo had suggested giving it a try earlier when I asked about how to get to low body fat, so I am giving it a try now.

 

yup this is what I've been told.  If you want to lift big you have to have big muscles which can't grow if you are starving them on low carb. 

 

I want a lot of muscle growth (to look like a hard body athlete - think MMA/boxer) BUT low body fat so I'm supposed to add carbs in.  Think swimmer physique.  Swimmers carb. 

 

The trick is healthy carbs - which a lot of athletes don't necessarily do.  And see, they all survive. 

 

i think Michael Phelps eats at Subway..... ha ha ha ha *duck*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh... Michael Phelps eats whatever he wants... and speaking as a swimmer who ate 3500-5000 calories daily, while still losing weight last year... none of us ate healthy carbs.  I don't think I would have been able to survive eating healthy due to monetary constraints.  The whole idea of physique being 80% diet is thrown out the window once you get to that kind of calorie intake, looking back, I am sure it couldn't have been terribly healthy, and even though I am in "worse shape" than I was then I feel a hell of a lot happier and healthier now.

 

But seriously 250g of primal carbs?!? Since you're supposed to still avoid sugars that is basically just asking you to go and literally eat an entire garden... Maybe its time to look into making a very very very green smoothie.  Was looking at it... and eating an entire bag of baby carrots, 40g of carbs... 1lb of sweet potatos, 93g of carbs... 

Looks like I might be trying out rice again since to me it seems like the healthiest of the non-primal carbs, 3 cups cooked brown rice, 135g of carbs.  Should be an interesting experiment of a day next Monday!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i would of thought white rice would be better for this due to the lack of fibre/other stuff that slows/prevents digestion and it's pretty damn easy to eat a big pile of rice (maybe just eat a bag of sugar :P)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah white rice is the rice of choice for us.  Honestly, I haven't eaten it or considered it.  But now I am.  *sigh*  I'm actually not a fan of white rice and potatoes kind of bore me.  Paleo very low carb was easy for me because I was never huge on carbs except some grains like oatmeal, dark rice, barley, etc.  Those are the things I loved.  And dessert.... ha ha.

 

I was talking with the husband of a competitive lifter and he said she easily eats 5000 calories on a gluten free dairy free diet.  I nearly died.  I hate being full so I can't imagine all that eating.

 

This should be an interesting journey for all of us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hrmmm alright... I'm probably going to be using brown for a bit just because it is what I have in the pantry at the moment!  Make sense though that for loading up on carbs you wouldn't need the fiber and protein that brown provides.

 

Going paleo was easy enough for me, I really only miss pastas and pizza, I was considering maybe trying a whole grain pasta as part of the refeed as well but I am not sure if I want to break primal that much just yet...

 

 

yeah white rice is the rice of choice for us.  Honestly, I haven't eaten it or considered it.  But now I am.  *sigh*  I'm actually not a fan of white rice and potatoes kind of bore me.  Paleo very low carb was easy for me because I was never huge on carbs except some grains like oatmeal, dark rice, barley, etc.  Those are the things I loved.  And dessert.... ha ha.

 

I was talking with the husband of a competitive lifter and he said she easily eats 5000 calories on a gluten free dairy free diet.  I nearly died.  I hate being full so I can't imagine all that eating.

 

This should be an interesting journey for all of us.

5000??? I am guessing that involves A LOT of different oils... I couldn't imagine getting that kind of caloric load from veggies and meat... When do you plan on giving this a try Cline?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When do you plan on giving this a try Cline?

 

Next challenge me thinks.  I'm off on vacation and luckily going to a super healthy place/event so I'll experiment with a little bit of carb there to start priming the engine.  Then my coach is actually going to start me w nutritional counseling when I get back.

 

I'm struggling mentally with adding so much food and carbs.  *sigh*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nutritional counseling? Sounds intense... I started reading Paleo For Athletes the other day, the start is mostly stuff I already knew from reading other sources, but it seems like it could be a good book... it is tailored more at endurance athletes, but I am sure that I can gleam enough useful information from it to modify my routine.  I'll update if I come across anything that seems really useful.

 

More food + carbs = MOAR LIFTING!  I can't wait to make it to my body fat goal, so that I can start putting down athlete levels of food, rather than dieting levels.  Just did the math today and so far I have lost 18.6lbs of fat but also 2.7lbs of muscle... which I guess is pretty standard for cutting as fast as I am.  Can't wait to turn those numbers around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nutritional counseling? Sounds intense... I started reading Paleo For Athletes the other day, the start is mostly stuff I already knew from reading other sources, but it seems like it could be a good book... it is tailored more at endurance athletes, but I am sure that I can gleam enough useful information from it to modify my routine.  I'll update if I come across anything that seems really useful.

 

Yeah, I felt the same way about the book.  Recently, I've been thinking well duh it's for endurance athletes - they don't want to pile on muscle.  *sigh*

 

Have you ever seen the nutrition advice at Lift Big Eat Big - it's another approach.

 

I can tell you all the coaches grumbled at my paleo diet this weekend. 

 

I think the counseling will be harder mentally than physically.  But I hate feeling full (love eating but hate being full) and don't like eating every couple of hours and hate eating anything before a session.  It comes with my coaching.  LOL.

 

More food + carbs = MOAR LIFTING!  I can't wait to make it to my body fat goal, so that I can start putting down athlete levels of food, rather than dieting levels.  Just did the math today and so far I have lost 18.6lbs of fat but also 2.7lbs of muscle... which I guess is pretty standard for cutting as fast as I am.  Can't wait to turn those numbers around.

 

hey!  good for you.  I lost about as much as my body is going to let me lose.  i want to lean out more and put on more muscle but that's hard too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I felt the same way about the book.  Recently, I've been thinking well duh it's for endurance athletes - they don't want to pile on muscle.  *sigh*

 

Have you ever seen the nutrition advice at Lift Big Eat Big - it's another approach.

 

I can tell you all the coaches grumbled at my paleo diet this weekend. 

 

I think the counseling will be harder mentally than physically.  But I hate feeling full (love eating but hate being full) and don't like eating every couple of hours and hate eating anything before a session.  It comes with my coaching.  LOL.

 

Yah... paleo has let me figure out what my body wants/needs better than I have ever known before.  I honestly haven't been able to eat to the point of being "full" since I started... I just kinda eat until I am done eating.  But sacrifices have to be made sometimes when you have a serious goal in mind.  Are you training for competition? or just training because you want to be more awesome?

 

Hey!  good for you.  I lost about as much as my body is going to let me lose.  i want to lean out more and put on more muscle but that's hard too.

 

I think I am at that point now, I def have more fat to lose but my body has become pretty happy with where it is it feels, which is why I am looking into refeeds and really stressing the need to lose body fat.  If I didn't have a bet going I would have already switched over to a bulking diet.  From previous experience trying to bulk for a bit will allow your body to come down to being leaner the next time you try to cut down your body fat.  Ideally I just want to get to the point, where I can constantly fluctuate around 10-12% while slowly gaining more muscle.  I want to get that really strong low body fat % base to work with... plus, it feels like a real challenge to try to get to that point on a time limit :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cline at 5'8" and 145- you should be looking pretty damn trim- I'm almost 30 lbs heavier and I look pretty good (if I do say so myself)

 

I definitely have tree trunks for thighs- but everything north of that except my little baby belly on the bottom is in decent condition.  

 

Thanks for the chat about this stuff- it's certainly interesting- I've never been a "diet" person- in any way shape or form- so watching what I was eating was pretty much what I was good at.  Moderating. I'm almost 30 and this is the first time I'm doing any serious nutritional tinkering.  Learning a lot for sure!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yah... paleo has let me figure out what my body wants/needs better than I have ever known before.  I honestly haven't been able to eat to the point of being "full" since I started... I just kinda eat until I am done eating.  But sacrifices have to be made sometimes when you have a serious goal in mind.  Are you training for competition? or just training because you want to be more awesome?

 

yes and no.  I want to compete in power lifting but I'm training for the CMC which are somewhat at odds, right?  I also train in Muay Thai so that's actually a good middle ground.  New coach wants me just lifting for strength and doing Muay Thai and skipping the rest of the training.  My goal is to improve technique and improve lifts.  I understand I could be already competitive in my class but I want to know I am before I enter a competition.  I'm planning to test up in Muay Thai the day after CMC so I need to be able to recover quickly too. 

 

I think I am at that point now, I def have more fat to lose but my body has become pretty happy with where it is it feels, which is why I am looking into refeeds and really stressing the need to lose body fat.  If I didn't have a bet going I would have already switched over to a bulking diet.  From previous experience trying to bulk for a bit will allow your body to come down to being leaner the next time you try to cut down your body fat.  Ideally I just want to get to the point, where I can constantly fluctuate around 10-12% while slowly gaining more muscle.  I want to get that really strong low body fat % base to work with... plus, it feels like a real challenge to try to get to that point on a time limit :)

 

Yeah I want the body fat down and more lean.  The problem is that's hard for power lifting.  I don't really want to go the bulking/cutting route b/c I worry that would be hard on my body.  I'd like to just figure out how to eat more of what I need without bulking.

 

Cline at 5'8" and 145- you should be looking pretty damn trim- I'm almost 30 lbs heavier and I look pretty good (if I do say so myself)

 

Ummmm... I know you've read my thread.  Har har.  Actually, the general consensus at the lifting seminar was that I was too skinny which I tried arguing and nobody listened.  Then I lifted good weights - esp BP.  BUT I need more muscle to do more weight, so here I go.  I want to stay around this weight.  If I can add a lot of strength at this weight, I'd be really good at fighting and really competitive at lifting.

 

I definitely have tree trunks for thighs- but everything north of that except my little baby belly on the bottom is in decent condition.  

 

Thanks for the chat about this stuff- it's certainly interesting- I've never been a "diet" person- in any way shape or form- so watching what I was eating was pretty much what I was good at.  Moderating. I'm almost 30 and this is the first time I'm doing any serious nutritional tinkering.  Learning a lot for sure!!!

 

Nutritional tinkering is scary to me b/c I'm finally starting to feel comfortable at this weight (which is still 10lbs over my original goal).  It's the psychology of it.  I think my new coach is really going to help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah 145 used to be my "if I could be any weight I want- I'd be 145" which is what I started college at- (I played soccer there and hence the tree trunk legs)- but looking at me now and what I can do- I think 145 would be too skinny ( at least for me) I'm starting to imagine you are built like my roommate- probably only because of the strong MT/lifting association there LOL (as she did both as well)

 

It is kind of scary- I'm so used to just eat healthy and don't binge- it's very overwhelming looking at all these things we could of should of would of been doing. 

 

I find it intemmidating because there are so few absolutes- people waffle back and forth on what's good and bad- people devote their lives to this stuff as their jobs and passions... here I am dipping my toe into the pond and I know almost nothing and I certainly don't have the time or resources to spend hours and hours and dollar and dollars to make it work for me.

 

GO COMMON SENSE AND INTERNET PLAN!!!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel your pain! All I eat are sweet potatoes, and I never really liked them to begin with. I won't touch grains or oats so I gotta learn to love the sweet potatoes. I would look up some different recipes to change the taste. I know Staci adds cinnamon to hers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cinnamon on sweet potatoes is delish, makes me feel fuller longer too, i don't do it all the time because i always forget to take it to work but it's good to not have it the same every time even if the difference is minute 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah 145 used to be my "if I could be any weight I want- I'd be 145" which is what I started college at- (I played soccer there and hence the tree trunk legs)- but looking at me now and what I can do- I think 145 would be too skinny ( at least for me) I'm starting to imagine you are built like my roommate- probably only because of the strong MT/lifting association there LOL (as she did both as well)

 

It is kind of scary- I'm so used to just eat healthy and don't binge- it's very overwhelming looking at all these things we could of should of would of been doing. 

 

I find it intemmidating because there are so few absolutes- people waffle back and forth on what's good and bad- people devote their lives to this stuff as their jobs and passions... here I am dipping my toe into the pond and I know almost nothing and I certainly don't have the time or resources to spend hours and hours and dollar and dollars to make it work for me.

 

GO COMMON SENSE AND INTERNET PLAN!!!! 

 

One thing I am learning from reading more and more different posts on NF is that I am very lucky to have the kind of relationship I have developed with food.  There are no absolutes over the general population but the more experimenting I do the more I realize that there are absolutes when it comes to my own health.  If I eat too much rice I wont feel well, a lack of fats in the day will leave me feeling groggy and slow to react, not enough protein after lifting and my joints will be stiff when I wake up... All it took was three months of just doing stuff, and reading NF ofcourse, and I am figuring out my absolutes... even if they don't work for anyone else :)

 

I have a bunch of frozen spinach so I am going to grind that up with my pre workout smoothie in the mornin, gonna make a big tub of mashed sweet potatoes with cinnamon and nom on that along with another spinach smoothie on the walk back from my gym to work.  Big ole salad with lean chicken for lunch, and then I am gonna just make a massive amount of spaghetti squash for dinner since I can pound that stuff down like there is no tomorrow haha.  If that can't get me to 250g of carbs then I dunno what will...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do cinnamon or cayenne, butter, sometimes s & p  but when it comes down to it there's only so much sweet potato you can eat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've tried a tammeric sweet potato with a little garlic and onion- was a VERY intersting dish- I made WAY to much of it- a little would have gone a long way- so I wound up throwing about half out (my rooomie wouldn't really eat it either)

 

but yeah- you gotta get SUPER creative with the sweet potatoes!

 

LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my favorite way to eat sweet potatoes is I chop them into thin circles and lay them out on a cookie sheet, I then drizzle on some olive oil and salt and pepper... I then take a nice filet of salmon and put it skin side up on top of the potatoes and drizzle that with olive oil and S/P.  Cook in the oven on about 350 long enough for the salmon to just start to cook through, then take it and throw it under a 500+ degree broiler until the skin is nice and crispy... everything becomes amazing real fast...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now