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Ketosis question


27angel

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This week I cut 90% of my grain intake. I have already cut sugar and artificial-sweeteners earlier in this challenge. People keep saying things like "where will you get your energy from without those complex carbs?" and "why would you cut out grains? Do you have some kind of health problem where you need to avoid them?" Tonight I got asked by a friend if I was trying to put my body into ketosis and how long I planned on doing it because her nutrionist friend told her that it is bad for the body to keep it in ketosis for long periods. I really didn't know what to say. Aren't the paleo and primal diets lifestyles that can be maintained indefinetly? Why do people keep acting like they are so unhealthy?

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Paleo and primal aren't necessarily low carb and you can do both without ever going into ketosis. You can also go into ketosis while eating pasta and chocolate though admittedly your portions would have to be tiny. :) I don't know enough about studies on ketosis to have an opinion on whether or not it's safe long term but not eating grains has nothing to do with it.

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yup - no need to be low carb on paleo or primal.  If you do decide to do a serious carb restriction, you should read up on it first - know why and what you are doing and decide how long.  There are some down sides to being low carb. 

 

If you are interested in paleo or primal and don't know what to do/think, etc. start by reading the book It Starts with Food.  It's awesome.

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Agreed with both of these.

 

FWIW, I have heard that ketosis for long periods of time is not good for your body. But it sounds like that's not what you're trying to do.

 

You can get plenty of carbs from veggies and starchy stuff like sweet potatoes and squash and stuff.

 

Another really good book that I'm in the midst of reading right now is Good Calories, Bad Calories. It kind of explains where a lot of the mythology of "grains are GOOD for you, you MUST have GRAINS and FIBER and NOM!!!" comes from.

 

It's actually scary. And it's a bit more sciencey so if you're not into that, I've heard that Why We Got Fat (same author) is similar but less sciencey.

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this is the way i understand it:

 

your body burns fat for energy.  in order for your body to get energy from carbs, it converts it to sugar.  those sugars are then coverted into fat via insulin and stored in the body.  high levels of insulin make it hard for the body to pull fat out of the fat cells to burn for energy.  once your body has burned most of the fatty acids floating around your blood stream it sends 1 of 2 signals: eat/sleep! or pull energy from storage.  or a mix of the two.  with high insulin levels, the body is going to signal hunger/rest more than pull from storage because it's hard for the body to pull that energy from fat stores with the high level of insulin.

 

 

there are a few more technical things i'm forgetting, but that's basically how it works.  that's why you tend to experience a crash shorty after a high carb or sugar intake.  whereas if you have a good fat intake for the body to readily burn you tend to have a steadier source of energy throughout the day, and keeps it easy for your body to pull from its reserves.

 

you don't have to be low carb for this, just more balanced than most people are.

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says the girl who doesn't eat carbs :tongue:

 

neener

 

dude, seriously....  I can give good advice for newbies.  I just don't take my own advice.  LOL.

 

So, since I've been outed - I've been very low carb for about 1.5 years.  It's been awesome, I've been happy.  But I'm branching out now and exploring the reintroduction of carbs bc of my weightlifting goals.

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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Anyone want to link to any study that states staying in ketosis for extended periods of time is bad for the body? People keep saying this, but I still haven't found anything that actually says it.

 

Also, cutting 90% of grains isn't going to put you into ketosis. Yes, you could accidentally fall into it, but you need to maintain < 30g of carbs a day to stay in it. So, without specifics, I'd say you're not there. 

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Anyone want to link to any study that states staying in ketosis for extended periods of time is bad for the body? People keep saying this, but I still haven't found anything that actually says it.

 

Also, cutting 90% of grains isn't going to put you into ketosis. Yes, you could accidentally fall into it, but you need to maintain < 30g of carbs a day to stay in it. So, without specifics, I'd say you're not there. 

 

I don't know of anything that says it's bad to be in ketosis for long periods and I've looked.  I see stuff that says it's bad "well, bc it is" but no real research.  I have read plenty from sources I trust that say it's just fine as long as you aren't having problems.

 

So, to be honest, I've really been maintaining at =<50g carbs/day for about 1.5 years.  I usually get my only carbs from veg (low carb veg like kale) except for occasional off-roading.  Honestly, I've been fine. 

 

Now, there are limits to muscle building me things but it's more like long term stuff.  Am I stronger than I was?  Yes.  Am I kind of plateauing?  Yes.  Is is possibly diet related?  yeah, probably.  So I'm tweaking the carb thing. 

 

Anyhow, for people new to paleo/primal - I wouldn't sweat it.  Make healthy changes and be sensible. 

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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I don't know of anything that says it's bad to be in ketosis for long periods and I've looked.  I see stuff that says it's bad "well, bc it is" but no real research.  I have read plenty from sources I trust that say it's just fine as long as you aren't having problems.

 

 

That's what I thought, I've been on keto for about 3 weeks now. I've been doing all my research and what not and keep having people tell me that it's not good for you. My research says otherwise and you can't cite your sources, so I no longer listen to you, random person.

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I don't know of anything that says it's bad to be in ketosis for long periods and I've looked.  I see stuff that says it's bad "well, bc it is" but no real research.  I have read plenty from sources I trust that say it's just fine as long as you aren't having problems.

 

 

been googling- (this subject hasn't come up much for me since most of the people who I talk to don't do low carb and there for don't care...

 

but found this little snippet- I wouldn't weigh it super heavily but it makes a legitamet point.

 

A dangerous condition called ketoacidosis can develop in those with type 1 diabetes, and it is sometimes confused with normal ketosis. The body usually avoids this state by producing insulin, but people with type 1 diabetes are unable to produce insulin. Even most people with type 2 diabetes who inject insulin usually produce enough insulin of their own to prevent ketoacidosis.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, for people new to paleo/primal - I wouldn't sweat it.  Make healthy changes and be sensible. 

god forbid people use common sense LOL- but that's really what it's about!!! 

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Thanks for all the input. I have really cut all grains. My last splurge was macaroni and cheese on Monday night. I even went so far as to not use soy sauce on my chicken stir fry because it had wheat in it (who knew?!) Up until this week I ate oatmeal with berries for breakfast every morning. I think my body must have wondered what was going on when I changed to a spinach, egg, bacon, and feta bake every morning this week.

 

As far as paleo/primal not needing to be low carb, thank you all for helping me understand this better. I also read an article on Mark's Daily Apple about the recommended range of carbs for a primal diet. Here it is If you are interested in reading it: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/dear-mark-ketosis/#axzz2S84bkgr0

 

The book "Why We Get Fat" was the reason I decided that I needed to change my eating habits.  Will "It Starts With Food" help me maneuver in the paleo/primal world? I really feel like I have jumped into the deep end of the pool. Everything seems to have some sort of sugar or artificial-sweetener in it. I guess in this world everything needs to be made from scratch. (Sorry, I think I just went off on a tangent.)

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and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength. Mark 12:30

 

 

 

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I think It Starts with Food is brilliant.  Easy to understand.  I also loved Primal Blueprint.  I also love Robb Wolf's book but it's more science-y than a lot of folks like. 

 

Instead of jumping into the deep end and getting overwhelmed, start small and easy.  Cut sugar, cut grains.  That's probably a lot for right now. 

 

Oodles of support for you here!

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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Glad you already found the MDA article, I really like that post for explaining the basics of it.

 

I have been in the 40-60g of carbs a day range for the last 3 months while trying to lose 2+lbs a week for a bet as such I have been completely fine.  I am noticing slowed workout recovery but that is completely due to heavy caloric restriction.  I am doing much better than I did when I ate a high carb diet though, in general I am just happier and feel better about myself.  I also noticed a serious change in my hunger pangs and energy levels as my body did seem to become more efficient at using fat stores.

 

The distinction that needs to be made is between ketosis and ketoacidosis.  The two are completely separate terms, one is the act of producing and using ketones from fat as energy, natural and healthy, your body is constantly doing this, just at very low levels when you have carbs as well to be used for energy.  Ketoacidosis is unchecked ketosis, in other words your body goes AWOL and makes all the ketones, which causes your blood to literally become acidic.  Ketosis is controlled by insulin, so in a healthy system this condition is very rare, however diabetics need to be much more careful about this.

 

Basically, ketosis is healthy and if you find you enjoy and thrive on that kind of diet you should 100% continue doing it as long as you would like to!

 

Now some science to backup that statement, so you guys don't think I am pulling this out of nowhere...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865776 <- proved that 4 weeks of ketosis had no affect on trained cyclists athletic endurance, just showed a change away from burning glucose

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865775 <- proved that in lean individuals ketosis showed a short term increase in cholestoral and other blood lipids, but this leveled out in time and subjects continued to be fine but once again showed a significant reduce in glucose usage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18175736 <- proved that a high protein, low carb ketogenic diet was more effective at lowering hunger and total calorie consumption in patients attempting to lose weight.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11581442 <- To prove it is safe in the long term... this study had a group of 83 children with difficult to control seizures (see other link on this below) live on a ketogenic diet for 3-6 YEARS!  In most cases it reduced or eliminated their need for medication and they all continued to live quite healthy lives for that entire time.

 

Just for funsies to further prove its good...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7790697 <- a cancer patient was placed on a ketogenic diet, lead to mood improvement and increase health... also stopped progression of the disease due to the tumor taking in 21% less glucose.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20204773 <- shows mental improvements in older rats that could mean it is beneficial to those with the chance of developing Alzheimers or other neuro-degenerative diseases.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17241207 <- BIG ONE! This is pretty much what started most of the ketosis research, ketogenic diets are a remarkably effective treatment for those that suffer seizures.

 

 Hope this helps a bit!

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Yay science!

 

And yeah, there's a lot of artificial stuff out there. I've started making my own mayonnaise (it's also way more delicious than store-bought). I like knowing what's in my food. The downside is that it takes a lot more time, effort, and thought. Like, I still buy my meat from the grocery store. Okay, I buy everything there. But the point is, right now I don't have the investment level required (time, money, etc) to move to grass fed sources of meat and non-GMO (which I'm kind of waffling on anyway) and all that stuff. Right now I'm just making the healthiest choices possible for me within my given restrictions (which are broadening all the time).

 

:)

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Ketosis CAN in fact, be a stressor.  IMO, going in and out of ketosis occasionally is good.  Staying in it forever without a need is probably not ideal. 

 

that said, cutting out grains will not put you in ketosis unless you also cut other carbs.  tell them that vegetables and fruits have more than enough carbs to keep you out of ketosis most days.  

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Ketosis CAN in fact, be a stressor.  IMO, going in and out of ketosis occasionally is good.  Staying in it forever without a need is probably not ideal. 

 

that said, cutting out grains will not put you in ketosis unless you also cut other carbs.  tell them that vegetables and fruits have more than enough carbs to keep you out of ketosis most days.  

 

Where are you getting this information from?  I have never seen anything considering it to be a stressor except for hear-say statements.

 

Agreed with the second statement though, there are plenty of carbohydrates in fruits and veggies that you can have a non-ketogenic diet without grains.

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"The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. Good things don't always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant."

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I will follow around here a little.  Irecently started a keto diet as well, and will see how my body reacts in the next 6-8 weeks compared to paleo.

 

however if it works I will probably still go back to paleo when I reach my goals.

 

and then its win to eat a 4egg omelet, with chorizo and cheese for breakfast :D

Be like water my friend

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