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Caloric Intake VS Net


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Increasing your calories is the FIX to the problem of too high a deficit. If you work out more, you'll negate the fix :)  Don't dooooo eeeeet! :nightmare:

A higher calorie thoughtput can sustain a higher deficit though.

You are much, much, much more likely to stall at 1200 cal intake 200 cal exercise at a BMR of 1500 and TDEE of 2200 than you are at 2200 cal intake, 1200 cal exercise at a BMR of 1500 and TDEE of 3200. Both have the exact same deficit, 1000 cal, and exact same BMR, 1500. The higher your intake, the larger deficit you can sustain.

Gross food intake, not exercise amount, is the key to a sustainably high deficit though. The more you eat, the faster you CAN lose.

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I found that to be too much work :tongue: I have a hard enough time tracking my food every day as it is! So I prefer to estimate my total activity, and I will tweak based on the results I see on the scale, on the measuring tape, in my clothes, and in my mirror.

 

I like this. I use the calorie tracker just to get a base or general idea of an average day or meal. Im not going to be a slave to the system! I just want to make sure that Im eating enough and getting enough protein. Ill eat more if I feel hungry as long as its good whole foods and not junk.

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A higher calorie thoughtput can sustain a higher deficit though.

You are much, much, much more likely to stall at 1200 cal intake 200 cal exercise at a BMR of 1500 and TDEE of 2200 than you are at 2200 cal intake, 1200 cal exercise at a BMR of 1500 and TDEE of 3200. Both have the exact same deficit, 1000 cal, and exact same BMR, 1500. The higher your intake, the larger deficit you can sustain.

True story!^  Wealth of knowledge 'round these parts.

 

So what's the final verdict, folks...can we come up with a solid recommendation to condense all this jazz into actionable advice?  We have consensus on upping the cals to, say...1800/day.  What about exercise?  I'd personally change only 1 variable at a time (cals in) before playing with more exercise (cals out), but...that's not gonna help Gilfren reach her goal in time.  So what about upping exercise by a bit to reach a weekly deficit of around 4500?  That's an extra 1000 cals per week...prolly around another pound lost in just over 3 weeks (total of 4 lbs or so lost in just over 3 weeks).

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You managed to lose a bunch then plateau in a month? What do you define as a plateau. Usually a pleateau is the lack of losing for couple months, not a couple days. Water issues, not a lack of fat loss, are usually the culprit for short term "plateaus".

 

I lost the 5-6 in about the first week of April and essentially hit the plateau immediately following that first 7-10 days.

 

 

Increasing your calories is the FIX to the problem of too high a deficit. If you work out more, you'll negate the fix :)  Don't dooooo eeeeet! :nightmare:

Thank you for bolding the fix :)

 

Gross food intake, not exercise amount, is the key to a sustainably high deficit though. The more you eat, the faster you CAN lose.

I needed to hear it phrased this way. I VERY much appreciate your advice here. You seem to know your shit.

 

 

I like this. I use the calorie tracker just to get a base or general idea of an average day or meal. Im not going to be a slave to the system! I just want to make sure that Im eating enough and getting enough protein. Ill eat more if I feel hungry as long as its good whole foods and not junk.

 

Yeah, I hear you. Today was the first time I used a calorie counter in many months and it was for curiosity (apparently, well placed curiosity)

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I like this. I use the calorie tracker just to get a base or general idea of an average day or meal. Im not going to be a slave to the system! I just want to make sure that Im eating enough and getting enough protein. Ill eat more if I feel hungry as long as its good whole foods and not junk.

What?!  You don't like data and spreadsheets? :playful:

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Oh man I love data and spreadsheets. CoreyD sent me one to track my diet, weight, and lifts.....ALL the data! But I don't like having to sit around and guess at how many calories I burned during a given strength training workout, esp since MFP doesn't really count strength as calorie-burning.

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I use MyFitnessPal.. and just now starting a Paleo diet.. I consider what I eat to be enough to sustain me easily, and any extra calories burned from exercise to be what makes me lose weight... I'm not really interested in eating more just because I work out :)  I don't like that part of MFP... oh you worked out today and burned 500cals?  EAT MORE! 

 

NO!  I ate ENOUGH!

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Okay, so I have to ask.

 

Waldo. What are your resources for all this stuff.

 

MIR WANTS ALL THE KNOWLEDGE.

Gosh.

Well all the bodybuilding nutrition gurus (Lyle McDonald, Alan Aragon, Layne Norton). Spending a lot of time just reading about it in general various sources. Remember, first and foremost bodybuilders are professional dieters.

Seeing/answering eleventy billion variations of the same question on MFP. I have a darn good understanding of Dan's "In place of a Roadmap" and his eat more to weight less concepts. Basically hang around MFP long enough and you get a darn good understanding of what does and doesn't work. Almost all the post-goal regulars have a lot of stuff in common (strength train and be consistent and moderate).

Plus my own data. Links to my spreadsheet are floating around (its in the 100 lbs to lose thread). I've got records of my daily intake, exercise burn, protein intake, calculated metabolism, daily weight, and weekly measurements going back to early Oct 2011, with only a few short (<1 wk) breaks, when I was on vacation away from home.

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So what's the final verdict, folks...can we come up with a solid recommendation to condense all this jazz into actionable advice?  We have consensus on upping the cals to, say...1800/day.  What about exercise?  I'd personally change only 1 variable at a time (cals in) before playing with more exercise (cals out), but...that's not gonna help Gilfren reach her goal in time.  So what about upping exercise by a bit to reach a weekly deficit of around 4500?  That's an extra 1000 cals per week...prolly around another pound lost in just over 3 weeks (total of 4 lbs or so lost in just over 3 weeks).

 

Yes. PLEASE save me.

 

In a nutshell from all the pieces:

5'8"

26 years old

152lbs

 

I workout 7 days a week currently, doing pure barre (essentially bodyweight strength training and calisthenics)

My caloric intake is around 1300-1400

Aside from the hour long workout every night, I work a desk job.

 

If I could get some kind of pretty bow on this, I'd really be appreciative

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I think consensus is upping calories to around 1800 for starters. Like we said earlier, it might be a few weeks before you really see a difference. I'd just keep with it and keep track of how you're feeling, measurements, pics, etc and then re-evaluate in a month - 6 weeks.

 

In the meantime, embrace your body and all the amazing stuff it does! You are beautiful, and your body is strong. Don't be ashamed of that.

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True story!^  Wealth of knowledge 'round these parts.

 

So what's the final verdict, folks...can we come up with a solid recommendation to condense all this jazz into actionable advice?  We have consensus on upping the cals to, say...1800/day.  What about exercise?  I'd personally change only 1 variable at a time (cals in) before playing with more exercise (cals out), but...that's not gonna help Gilfren reach her goal in time.  So what about upping exercise by a bit to reach a weekly deficit of around 4500?  That's an extra 1000 cals per week...prolly around another pound lost in just over 3 weeks (total of 4 lbs or so lost in just over 3 weeks).

In her case I would up it to 1200 cal/day net and leave it there for now. It would create a deficit in the neighborhood of 600-700 cal/day, 1.2-1.4 lb/wk. That can usually be sustained fairly long. It also isn't too radical a change from the current status (slow changes > fast changes). If stalling issues come up again, bump the net cals another 100-200 up.

As long as you do a good job counting exercise cals, most women can sustain 1200 cal/day net until you enter into the ab detail zone (most guys can sustain a 1K/day deficit to the ab zone). Once you start getting the vertical lines of your abs, you need to slow your roll down to a deficit of 500 cal/day max. Same thing applies to guys (though guys tend to get horizontal lines before vertical lines). When you can start seeing abs, its a sign you're running out of fat, especially easy to mobilize fat, so you can't sustain as high of a deficit.

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In her case I would up it to 1200 cal/day net and leave it there for now. It would create a deficit in the neighborhood of 600-700 cal/day, 1.2-1.4 lb/wk. That can usually be sustained fairly long. It also isn't too radical a change from the current status (slow changes > fast changes). If stalling issues come up again, bump the net cals another 100-200 up.

As long as you do a good job counting exercise cals, most women can sustain 1200 cal/day net until you enter into the ab detail zone. Once you start getting the vertical lines of your abs, you need to slow your roll down to a deficit of 500 cal/day max. Same thing applies to guys.

So, if my average workout is, say, 400 calories, I should eat 1600 at a minimum.

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:love_heart:  :love-struck:  :love_heart:  :love-struck:

 

Thanks everybody. I'm going to give it a shot for this month. As much as I hate it, it sounds like myfitnesspal is back in my life for food and exercise calorie counting, but it sounds like this may be my solution!

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Oh man I love data and spreadsheets. CoreyD sent me one to track my diet, weight, and lifts.....ALL the data! But I don't like having to sit around and guess at how many calories I burned during a given strength training workout, esp since MFP doesn't really count strength as calorie-burning.

Huge flaw in MFP (and amongst calorie counters in general)

You can safely assume that every "lifting heavy" workout burns about 2/3 your running pace burn. For me I can burn up about 900 cal/hr running, thus I burn about 600 cal/hr strength training. That is about where the circuit training or high effort calisthenics entries are. If anything that is a conservative estimate.

Strength training burns a lot more calories than you'd think. The chemical reaction that produces work from nutrients (not plural really, from carbs, fat doesn't (can't) power high intensity work) is 17x more effient when it makes you out of breath (aerobic) instead of making your muscles burn (anaerobic). Lower reps don't cause the burn, but cause more damage, which has a higher calorie cost.

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I use MyFitnessPal.. and just now starting a Paleo diet.. I consider what I eat to be enough to sustain me easily, and any extra calories burned from exercise to be what makes me lose weight... I'm not really interested in eating more just because I work out :)  I don't like that part of MFP... oh you worked out today and burned 500cals?  EAT MORE! 

 

NO!  I ate ENOUGH!

This works if you have a lot to lose or don't exercise much.

If you are chasing the single digits in BF%, what you describe will not work very good.

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So, if my average workout is, say, 400 calories, I should eat 1600 at a minimum.

Yes

 

And then when I start seeing the vert. in the abs (which, you could argue, is getting very close to happening), up it to 1800?

And yes.

Slow bumps. No need for monster jumps. You start seeing some ab lines, bump it 100. Two weeks later if everything seems to be going good, bump it another 100.

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