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Slightly experienced dieter/exerciser needs some tips... (Ex paleo, looking for answers)


lucidzfl

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So this is my first post in the forums so I apologize for my newbieness.  I am however, no stranger to diet/exercise and am now at the point that I want to balance life happiness with a healthy lifestyle and increase overall strength.

 

 I've already done the hard part, losing 35 lbs and gotten myself into a good regimen of working out first thing in the morning.

 

Currently, I'm about 157lbs @ 15% body fat and don't want to have to ultra compromise my diet further to gain more strength/lose fat %.  I'm reaching  the point now where i get very hungry all the time and have been continuing to avoid carbs by snacking on salads and fruit just to feel full throughout the day.  I believe my hunger is a biproduct of the increased exercise   

 

When I first started working out, I could go <50 carbs daily with no problems, but as soon as I started lifting, it started getting bad.  I also feel that one problem with the paleo diet is that it skews the reduction in carbs as a drastic increase in fat.  I looked at a meal I had yesterday, and it was high in calories and saturated fat, although extremely low in carbs.  I feel that such a massive swing is not necessarily healthy.  Therefore I want to re-balance my diet, focusing on whole foods and try and live a happy medium.

 

Thusly, my question is what kind of carbs to include, and when?

 

Rice for example is confusing.  Which rice is better, white, brown, basmati, jasmine, or none at all?  What about potatoes?  I don't eat fried food so thats not a concern, but I've read that mashing potatoes increases the volume while keeping the carbs the same, at the cost of fat (butter/cream) which I'm fine with, but is it ok?  What about making home made pasta?  Its 25% lower in carbs (around 30 per serving) and better on calories, plus its obviously not processed...

 

I do cook all of my own food, so time factor and convenience isn't an issue; neither is cost... 

 

Thanks in advance for the tips!!

 

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I'm no expert, but being a vegetarian, I believe that carbs are not the enemy. I use brown rice. The different types (basmati, jasmine, long grain, short grain, etc) are just different types of rice, like you might have white or green cauliflower. They have different uses. You might use basmati in an Indian dish, short grain rice in a dish where you want the rice to be kind of sticky, long-grain when you want fluffy, etc. White rice is missing a lot of nutrients so I avoid it.

 

We use potatoes. White potatoes have a higher glycemic load than other potatoes, so it's not good to make a steady diet of them. But I find that they are cheap, and on my budget, cheap is good.

 

Since cost isn't a factor, you might want to branch out from rice and potatoes, though. Try quinoa. That stuff is amazing; higher in protein than rice (and more complete). You can also get away with beans, if you prepare them properly. By that I mean, don't buy canned beans. Buy dry ones, soak them at least overnight, rinse them, and then pressure cook them. This will kill almost all of the bad things that make diehard paleos so anti-legume. So get a pressure cooker if you don't have one. And even things that cook quickly, like lentils and black-eyed peas, benefit from pre-soaking (though they only need about 4 hours minimum). Beans are relatively high in protein and have complex carbs (the good kind), so if you can prepare them properly, you'll get those good benefits.

 

You could definitely try making pasta. I tried it once, but decided it was too much work. What can I say? I have kids. Anyhow, I buy whole grain pasta. I always serve pasta with something relatively high in protein, like beans or a cheese sauce made from cashews or something.

 

As a vegetarian, I would never do Paleo. I think the concept is great, and I wish all meateaters would adopt more of the Paleo mindset in many areas. But I believe the good Lord gave us seeds and legumes and grains, and I'm sure going to eat them!

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If you truly are 15% and have been cutting a while, you are probably starting to see the effects of high ghrelin and low leptin, the hunger hormones.

 

You might have never experienced their true effects in your life (hunger when overweight is a hypersensitivity to it, but the totality of the effects aren't nearly the same).

 

A diet break at maintenance or time spent bulking will keep it at bay/make it go away.

 

Dealing with hormones is part of the reality of dieting when lean.  It is your bodies' defense against starvation.  The longer you've been dieting and the leaner you are, the stronger the effects.  Constant hunger, even right after eating meals, is one of its effects.  Next up, if you keep dieting, are food fantasies.

currently maintaning

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We use potatoes. White potatoes have a higher glycemic load than other potatoes, so it's not good to make a steady diet of them. But I find that they are cheap, and on my budget, cheap is good.

Except that the potatoes on the market have a lower GL and GI than the ones with really high doses, adding to that that most of it is within the skin (which people usually peel) you definitely can roll with potatoes more frequently (obviously also dependant on your treatment of them) without big problems depending on your goals. Might not be ideal for further cutting or drastic weight reduction from overweight/obese though.

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I highly recommend Crossfitters Eat to Perform.  They are very helpful and are helping me a lot (and no, I don't CF).

 

I was <50g carb a day and I'm working to add in carbs.

 

There is a big difference in rice if you are sensitive.  Potatoes affect folks differently, etc. 

 

I'm going for less fat right now (again, I'm following recommendations from ETP) and adding in white rice, sweet potatoes, occasional white potatoes, and a few additional cheats/sweets.  I've added in some fruit, too.  I'm still really new to it so can't advise too much but happy to try to help.

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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If you truly are 15% and have been cutting a while, you are probably starting to see the effects of gherelin, the hunger hormone.

 

You might have never experienced its true effects in your life (hunger when overweight is a hypersensitivity to it, but the totality of the effects aren't nearly the same).

 

A diet break at maintenance or time spent bulking will keep it at bay/make it go away.

 

Dealing with gherelin is part of the reality of dieting when lean.  It is your bodies' defense against starvation.  The longer you've been dieting and the leaner you are, the stronger the effects.  Constant hunger, even right after eating meals, is one of its effects.  next up, if you keep dieting, are food fantasies.

 

Hey Waldo, thank you for the very throughough response.  I'm going to look up the gherelin, per your recommendation.  I'm in a 3 week cut phase right now.  Also, about my size/percentage, I'm 5'11 157 lbs with a waist of <33".   I've got a digital set of fat calipers and do the 3 point test.  That gives me a specific reading of 15.76% (it varies a bit on water/etc) The YMCA calc puts me at 16%.  And I've been dieting for about 5 months.  I started at over 190 in december.  I went ultra low carb (50 or less) for about 2.5 months, but once I started lifting, I realized that my low carbs and caloric deficit made it hard to get through a workout.

 

I've now gotten to point where I CRAVE carbs.  Hence my questions about rice, pasta and potatoes...

What I've found interesting is that I've eaten foods I THOUGHT were healhy, such as bananas or home made beef jerky and REALLY REALLY enjoyed them, then found out they are high in carbs. (Bananas are obviously 33 carbs per....)  This caused me to further adjust my diet.  So now my breakfasts alternate between 2 eggs and bacon and a fruit sampler of black berries, raspberries, strawberries and red seedless grapes.  Lunches are typically almost no carbs.  Simple steak/pork/chicken/lamb/shrimp with some combination of mushrooms, onions, peppers, blah blah.  No sauce, no carbs. Just butter or lard.

 

One other question while I have y'all's ear... I work out first thing in the morning before I eat.  Is this wise, or should I do some kind of shake before the workout and then lift? (I do strength training, no HIIT.  All weights.)

 

Thanks!!!

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I forgot. I had one extra question.  I eat a lot of fiber in my diet, but have only been tallying the carbs in total, and not fiber in total.  If you are trying to determine net carbs for the day, do you add all the carbs you took in for the entire day, and subtract the grams of fiber? 

IE: from fruit alone, raspberries, starwberries, blueberries and blackberries (my premade fruit cup breakfasts and snacks) I'm consuming 20+ grams of fiber per day, but am not calculating that towards things like potatoes.  So if I ate 100 grams of carbs, and 30 grams of fiber, would that make my net carbs per day 70?

Thanks for the help!

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I've been <50g carbs per day for almost 1.5 years.  I can tell you that it stops being good for you at some point. 

 

Also, I can tell you that getting most of your carbs from fruit is not the way to go.

 

I don't see if you are M or F and it matters some according the stuff I'm reading that for F you need to lower the fat some and up the carbs.  The general thinking at ETP is carbs over 100g/day for everybody who WODS several times a week.  for M it's around 150 and those are the low carb days. 

 

If you get all your carbs from fruit, you are essentially accessing only the fast acting carbs.  You need to get starch into the body.  For some potatoes work, for some they don't.  Most people in the group I'm following use sweet potatoes and white rice.  white rice b/c it irritates digestion less. 

 

Also, I'm following a kind of carb back loading principle (kind of.... loosely).  So how you eat around workouts kind of matters.

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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Hi Cline, thanks for responding.  I'm a M. And yeah, I"m trying to figure out when to have which carbs.  My goal is 12% body fat, but I want it maintainable with an enjoyable lifestyle.  Doing uber cut and staying at around 10% would be awesome, if i cared to do it, but I don't think I'd enjoy my food as much..

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Carbs are not the enemy. Also paleo != low carb. If you want to stay paleo while adding in more carbs, eat LOTS of veggies. Add in sweet potato, squash (winter and summer) and things of that nature. You don't necessarily have to cut out fruits - just limit them. That being said - if you are REALLY trying to lose more bf%, then yeah maybe you want to stay away from fruits and anything with sugar.

 

Other than that, listen to Waldo. He's the expert 'round these parts ;)

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Carbs are not the enemy. Also paleo != low carb. If you want to stay paleo while adding in more carbs, eat LOTS of veggies. Add in sweet potato, squash (winter and summer) and things of that nature. You don't necessarily have to cut out fruits - just limit them. That being said - if you are REALLY trying to lose more bf%, then yeah maybe you want to stay away from fruits and anything with sugar.

 

Other than that, listen to Waldo. He's the expert 'round these parts ;)

Thanks for the response.  I am not paleo any more.  I was. (Hence: ex paleo, in title)  I am more specific to my own needs now.  I don't eat a gallon of fruit every day and expect anything from it.  I only eat fruit for breakfast, and that is only 3 days per week.  3 other days per week its eggs/bacon/omellette or something.  1 day per week, I allow myself to have some carbs with breakfast and no carbs for the rest of the day. (Think, eggs benedict).

 

And yeah, I eat TONS of vegetables.  Today's lunch for example was bacon crusted sauteed chicken breast with sauteed onion, tomatoes, and zucchini.  That's pretty common for lunch.

 

Do you guys think I"m going to have a hard time going from 15+% BF to 12% BF if I eat any fruits at all?  I don't like having a fatty calories all the time.  Sometimes I like fructose.

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what's wrong with fat?

 

fat's GREAT.  

 

and yes- fruit/sugar can cause issues with such things- you definitely can't be over doing it.  Waldo can chime in- because I really don't have experience with that super low BF realm. 

 

I know the lower you get- the harder it gets to cut that 2%  so for me 3% BF cut wouldn't be THAT hard- I'm in the low 20's. But cutting 15-12 becomes exponentially more difficult than my cut.  So EVERY little thing counts.  Where as at 20%... 1 banana and 5 strawberries just isn't going to make or break me as long as I'm keeping everything else in check.

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I might be missing it.... but what kind of workout? 

 

In sum, carbs will fuel your workouts and more importantly help rebuild muscle.  The reason starches are preferred is because they do this slowly (thus no big "hit" on your system from a sugar boost) whereas fruit happens quickly (a quick boost).  So when/how to eat carbs matters in the world I'm now in.

 

The thing is, it's kind of an experiment.

 

Right now I'm trying to do a bit of slow starch in the a.m. b/c I workout in the evening.  Then I do a banana or a little fruit about an hour before the workout.  After workout I'm doing a pwo w a slow carb (not just sugar!!!!) and then a slow carb in the evening with dinner. 

 

Now people who CF in the am (most of the stuff I'm working on is designed for CF but is not exclusive to them) go fasted or with some shake and then eat after.  It kind of depends. 

 

It's a HUGE adjustment for me.   and it's been really really hard.

 

Oh, and this requires I cut back on the fat a bit too. 

 

My understanding is it's also somewhat dependent on how you workout/what you do.  I power lift 3x week and Muay Thai 3x week. 

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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cline: My workouts are mostly weight training. I do pushups and pullups as well as some ab work on a decline bench.  Just for physical shape I do some weighted shadow boxing but thats more because I'm into martial arts than the fact that I'm trying to do cardio.

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Haha! I muay thai.

Seriously, you gotta get more carbs.

Also muay thai guy on fb has good diet stuff. I love eat to perform. Not seeing a big difference in my lifts yet but a big difference in recovery.

I AM going the distance

 

'Cause all I wanna do is go the distance. Nobody's ever gone the distance with Creed, and if I can go that distance, you see, and that bell rings and I'm still standin', I'm gonna know for the first time in my life, see, that I weren't just another bum from the neighborhood.

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Carbs are not the enemy. Also paleo != low carb. If you want to stay paleo while adding in more carbs, eat LOTS of veggies. Add in sweet potato, squash (winter and summer) and things of that nature. You don't necessarily have to cut out fruits - just limit them. That being said - if you are REALLY trying to lose more bf%, then yeah maybe you want to stay away from fruits and anything with sugar.

 

Other than that, listen to Waldo. He's the expert 'round these parts ;)

 

Ate 500g carbs today, 275g sugar.

 

...Cutting

 

Seriously though, a lot of the nasty effects of getting lean are kept at bay with massive doses of carbs from time to time.  Carbs and only carbs works (need to fill muscle glycogen to hopefully fix your hormones a little).

 

If you do a lot of high intensity exercise, your body wants lots and lots of carbs.  No biggie to burn up 200g+ carbs in a single workout.

 

There is nothing magically fattening about carbs.  Stick to your chosen overall energy intake and you're fine.  Carbs are only an issue for some people ad libitum eating and people with significant insulin resistance.

currently maintaning

battle log challenges: 16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
follow me: myfitnesspal
don't panic!

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Ate 500g carbs today, 275g sugar.

 

...Cutting

 

Seriously though, a lot of the nasty effects of getting lean are kept at bay with massive doses of carbs from time to time.  Carbs and only carbs works (need to fill muscle glycogen to hopefully fix your hormones a little).

 

If you do a lot of high intensity exercise, your body wants lots and lots of carbs.  No biggie to burn up 200g+ carbs in a single workout.

 

There is nothing magically fattening about carbs.  Stick to your chosen overall energy intake and you're fine.  Carbs are only an issue for some people ad libitum eating and people with significant insulin resistance.

 

That being said, I'm a first thing in the morning exerciser, what do you recommend for pre-workout and post workout injest?  Food? Protein? Supplements?  This morning, I'm doing deadlifts, squats, hamstring curls and pull ups, for example.

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lucidzfl, on 21 May 2013 - 07:42, said:

That being said, I'm a first thing in the morning exerciser, what do you recommend for pre-workout and post workout injest? Food? Protein? Supplements? This morning, I'm doing deadlifts, squats, hamstring curls and pull ups, for example.

Doesn't really matter. Get some protein in you at some point.

I don't believe in suppliments. In the AM, drink some coffee.

currently maintaning

battle log challenges: 16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
follow me: myfitnesspal
don't panic!

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FYI - Most people underestimate their BF%. Often by a lot. It is very tough to estimate.

I'm 6'1" 197ish, 14% BF, and my waist measures in the low 31" area (flexed, pulled snug). Prior to this I've throught I was 12% since my initial cut, every time I lost I had to revise my view of the past because I knew I wasn't any lower than that. Finally did what I hope is the last revision, because yet again I'm cutting, losing great, and not picking up any visual signs of being under 12%. I thought my flexed abs came in at about 15%. LOL, no, I get flexed abs (all 6) at about 23-24%.

Once in the teens you have to readjust your diet methodology. It doesn't work like it did when you were fat, where you can just set a big deficit and let the fat melt away month after month. The hormonal response is much stronger, you're prone to lose lean mass, and just can't go as fast. Long diet breaks and/or refeeds have to be part of the plan lest your homones drive you insane (it is not unusual for guys pushing hard to get lean to lose all sexual desire and the ability to perform, and have this last even for a while after raising cals).

currently maintaning

battle log challenges: 16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
follow me: myfitnesspal
don't panic!

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Waldo: About the BF%, I did clarify that the digitial fat caliper 3 point test read 15.76%.  Does that not seem right?  How can I get a more accurate reading.  I'm certainly not trying to lie about my BF%, I dont give a sh**. I'd rather be accurate than vain.

 

Also: as for protein, I'm consuming around 125 grams per day.  Should I increase?

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Doesn't really matter. Get some protein in you at some point.

I don't believe in suppliments. In the AM, drink some coffee.

 

Ok, then my morning routine seems ok.  That's good :)

 

Also, in addition to our fat % conversation, in my picture, do I look to be significantly higher than ~16% bf?

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Waldo: About the BF%, I did clarify that the digitial fat caliper 3 point test read 15.76%.  Does that not seem right?  How can I get a more accurate reading.  I'm certainly not trying to lie about my BF%, I dont give a sh**. I'd rather be accurate than vain.

 

Also: as for protein, I'm consuming around 125 grams per day.  Should I increase?

Trust me, I was (am) in the same boat. I wanted to always do everything possible to make sure I had the best possible estimate. Lying implies malice, when in reality you are doing your best. Fact is for the most part you just don't know until you make that final push down to leanness. Being faced with the reality that you are a few % higher than you previously thought sucks, especially since that reality hits you mid diet. It especially sucks if that reality smacks you a few times.

For the most part, calipers read low.

Protein, yes. Should probably increase to 1g / lb bodyweight now that you're relatively lean.

Also, in addition to our fat % conversation, in my picture, do I look to be significantly higher than ~16% bf?

Hard to tell wearing clothes.

Look at my latest progress photos:

http://nerdfitnessrebellion.com/index.php?/topic/26827-waldo-challenge-90/?p=522557

I'm about 17% in the first picture, bit over 14% in the last picture (not much changes in the mid teens).

currently maintaning

battle log challenges: 16,15,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1
follow me: myfitnesspal
don't panic!

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