Slightly experienced dieter/exerciser needs some tips... (Ex paleo, looking for answers)

[Waldo]

Here's an example of a similar weight chart, over a MUCH longer time scale.  You can see my surplus/deficit quite readily:

 

Ladies have funky weight charts since both TOM and ovulation tend to come with a short term weight spike.

[lucidzfl]

Dietary cholesterol has little effect on serum cholesterol. And never assume people know what they are doing. Most of the time they are doing something wrong.  

 

Ah.  I'm going by like spartan diet, Dwayne (the rock) Johnson stuff like that.  I have very little real world knowledge; just what I read.

 

I'm still learning.

[Morrigainz]

Dietary cholesterol has little effect on serum cholesterol. And never assume people know what they are doing. Most of the time they are doing something wrong.  

This.

 

And proteins and fats are good places to get your calories from. Those are the macros that are going to help you feel sated and like you don't need/want to eat more.

 

And yeah, it appears I did gain a pound in a month, despite eating at a pretty good deficit. This is why bodies are weird. I also have training stuff going on that is probably inhibiting weight loss.

 

Thanks for posting your graph Waldo

[bigm141414]

Ah.  I'm going by like spartan diet, Dwayne (the rock) Johnson stuff like that.  I have very little real world knowledge; just what I read.

 

I'm still learning.

 

 

No worries. I just like reinforcing the fact that life is one big experiment and that what works for one person does not mean it is good/will work for another  

[Bolson32]

Bolson:  Yolks are high in calories, high in cholesterol.  Also, every body builder diet I saw has them eating egg whites.  I assume they know what they're doing.

 

Body builder diets are for just that...body builders, Most body builders cut on what you would bulk on. Most of the nutrition is the yolks, obviously you don't need to eat 4 full eggs or whatever, but you'd be better off eating 2-3 full eggs than 6 whites in my opinion.

 

Egg whites are fine too, just saying you're missing some good nutrition. Higher in calories yes, but eggs really aren't a place where you're going to squeeze out crazy calories. I can eat a damn solid breakfast at 600cals that consists of whole eggs and bacon.

[lucidzfl]

Bolson: I gotcha.  I had been doing the same, eating whole eggs... But I don't know how to get to a caloric deficit with a 600 calorie breakfast...  Even if I exactly at the same for lunch and dinner, and then 0 snacks through the day, that puts me at 1800 calories, ie: 50 calories ABOVE my supposed deficit limit.

 

This is why I'm so confused. I am constantly hearing something different.  So rather than annoy the hell out of people on the boards, I looked up diets onilne to try to abide by, and those aren't right either.. I hear something different every day.  One day, cut carbs..  Next day, increase protein.  Third day, eat more.  Fourth day carbs are fine, in moderation. Fifth day cut calories.  Sixth day, god only knows?

[Bolson32]

I hear ya, it's hard to dial it in and figure out exactly what works for you. Also, I have the luxury of being able to eat a few more calories than you at 180lbs.

 

I'm not a huge snacker and skip breakfast, so 800cals at lunch and 1000 at dinner is easily doable for me. But the deficits are no longer really working, so I'm upping my calories. This is the slightly more fun part ha.

[I-Jo]

I think you are thinking of this from the wrong angle.

 

You are thinking that you are going to research and find an "equation"  and plug in  YOUR variables- and spit out a consist program/results

 

It's more like you have a general idea of the results you want- and you kind of tinker with the equation untill you figure out what makes things =, > or <.  There is no RIGHT or WRONG way- there are better ways- and there are worse ways.... but there is not RIGHT answer.  You will never have a set path.  Especially if you haven't done much of this before- you get an idea- and you try it out for 6 months or so- see how you like it.  See what your results are- chart it- if you like.  I LOVE the idea of the charts.  I HATE the idea of doing that much charting.  I just use MFP for a general guide line and I try not to sweat it.

 

I'll be honest- I go in waves.  There are days/weeks when I am super up tight I get about my food- and what I look like- and when I start getting obscessive- I go buy a 12/24  pack and order my favorite pizza.  And then I sit down on the couch friday or saturday afternoon- and I eat the shit out of it.  ALL OF IT.

 

To remind myself- that even though I'm working toward a goal- I can't obsess about it. I can't turn into one of those calorie counting- never eating anything "not clean" or whatever.  Just eat the damn pizza I say.   The next day- I got back to normal- refreshed knowing- that I"m not going to DIE or ruin my diet by eating pizza and drinking beer.

 

 

Again- you just gotta keep working with it- and don't try to think to hard- it can be VERY overwhelming (trust me I KNOW) but just make one step at a time- adjust ONE variable at a time and watch- watch for longer than you think- patience and consistency are key to success here. 

[Waldo]

To remind myself- that even though I'm working toward a goal- I can't obsess about it.

As it relates to the reaching of goals, what's the difference between obsession and determination?

[lucidzfl]

Well... To respond... I'm not going to do the whole 12/24 pack and a pizza thing.  I get what your saying, but my version of that last night was going out for seared diver bay scallops and lobster mac and cheese.  I do not drink, smoke, or anything else mostly unhealthy, and don't miss it for the most part.  (I've done all those things, I just quit cold turkey... I haven't smoked in 5 years and I haven't had a drink since last year.

 

As for wanting some scientific equation, maybe I am naive, but I think there could easily be a generalized plan for me.  IE: a 160~ lb, 5'11 33 year old with around 18% (revised for waldo) body fat, looking to drop a couple % body fat and add some muscle.  I've figured out the weight stuff mostly. (I still have some questions like, should I target muscle groups twice a week or three times, and questions about pushing to failure, etc, but mostly I'm dialed in.)

 

As for diet, I'm going to try and hit 160 grams of protein, 1750 calories per day, and 110 or less carbs.  Thats my game plan.  It may not be perfect, but thats what I'm doing now.  I'll how it pans out in a month, two months, etc.

 

How I decide to get there is my choice.  I'm going to do egg whites instead of eggs because thats an easy calorie cut I can use later in the day in another meal, etc.  I'm going to reduce my butter intake on things like toast, and sauteeing vegetables, because thats easy too. 

 

I've introduced whole grain toast (carbs, oh no!) and red potatoes (well, 1 small) with lunch to increase starch.  Occassionaly I will have rice / orzo pasta with dinner. (omg, carbs again!)

 

The end goal is to keep myself fueled through the day, starting with a fasted weight lifting workout every morning at 7:30 am.  If I'm hungry through the day, I'll eat low carb, sugar free snacks.  If I find myself desperately in need of calories or carbs, I'll adjust.  Don't know what else I can do.  This is just where I'm at, and what I'm going to do...

 

(BTW: I've been doing this for a while now, but I've not been as specific about it as I'm getting.  I've been dieting and excercising for 5 months now.)

 

And yes, I'm very dialed in. I track my every morsel of food in myfitness and i keep an excel spread sheet of every work out, include reps, weight, duration of the sets, and difficulty of the set.  When my third set starts to just be Medium-Hard, I increase the weight.  When a workout is taking too short a time, I add intervals in between sets consisting of body weight exercises.

 

It helps to be organized... At least for me.

[marionette]

As it relates to the reaching of goals, what's the difference between obsession and determination?

 

Obsession is when it becomes unhealthy, mentally or physically. If you have a nervous breakdown at the thought of a slice of pizza (I know several women who do, and have been one myself) then it is obsession. Determination is more flexible and recognizes the real world and your own humanity, and instead of a misstep causing a breakdown is just accepted, dealt with, and moved on from.

[Waldo]

Obsession is when it becomes unhealthy, mentally or physically. If you have a nervous breakdown at the thought of a slice of pizza (I know several women who do, and have been one myself) then it is obsession. Determination is more flexible and recognizes the real world and your own humanity, and instead of a misstep causing a breakdown is just accepted, dealt with, and moved on from.

So in other words dermination built on a shaky foundation = obsession? Like there is an underlying ED, a broken foundation, that is being avoided.

[marionette]

So in other words dermination built on a shaky foundation = obsession? Like there is an underlying ED, a broken foundation, that is being avoided.

 

A lot of people have complicated relationships with food, a lack of information about diet, and a strange idea that if they do X then they will be perfect, despite there being no real evidence saying so. So yes, a shaky foundation can cause obsession.

 

Or from Webster

 

Obsession: a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling

 

Determination: firm or fixed intention to achieve a desired end

[lucidzfl]

A lot of people have complicated relationships with food, a lack of information about diet, and a strange idea that if they do X then they will be perfect, despite there being no real evidence saying so. So yes, a shaky foundation can cause obsession.

 

Or from Webster

 

Obsession: a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling

 

Determination: firm or fixed intention to achieve a desired end

 

That sounds to me like an underlying self esteem issue.  I don't have one.  I could stop dieting and working out right now and no one would ever tell me I look fat.  I'm trying to improve for myself, not for anyone else.  If I wanted to have a piece of pizza, I would. (and have) But most days, I like the accomplishment of having perfected my diet.  For me, leading a perfect week is as lofty a goal as doing a perfect pushup, then a perfect set, then a perfect workout.  Past that, a perfect day according to diet.  Then a week.  Then a month.

If that qualifies as obsession... And it might... Oh well.  I'm not hiding from anything, so I choose to be strict.  I "cheat", but I don't go hog wild insane with cheating.  Drinking a 12 pack and eating an entire piece of pizza to remind myself that I'm working for something would indicate that my natural inclination is to sit down and eat an entire pizza and drink a 12 pack.  It isn't.  I never had that inclination.

When you assign heavier weight to minor infractions such as "having a scoop of ice cream" or "a piece of pizza", I can see how that becomes borderline obsessive and unhealthy.  But I don't think that having a scoop of ice cream or a piece of pizza is inherently unhealthy in regular moderation.  Plenty of college kids get away with it and look great.  Eating a WHOLE pizza in one sitting?  I don't know many people, who would describe that as healthy in any level of moderation...

[marionette]

I would put you down as Determined, not Obsessed. I was just pointing out where one stops and the other begins, from both subjective experience and from the actual definitions. 

[I-Jo]

As it relates to the reaching of goals, what's the difference between obsession and determination?

I feel like when my self esteem becomes tied to it- or I attach unrelated emtions.  I know we have talked about this on other threads.

 

I've never really truly suffered from eating disorders- but I have had body image issues.  

 

I can tell when it isn't a factual process for me- it's no longer objective.  It becomes subjective and my worth of sucking- or being a fat ass (has happened). 

 

Being determined and sticking with a plan is one thing- but obsessing and attaching negative self image and really derogatory thoughts- that's different.    If I break down and cry because I ate the pizza- I have a problem.  If that makes sense???

[lucidzfl]

I feel like when my self esteem becomes tied to it- or I attach unrelated emtions.  I know we have talked about this on other threads.

 

I've never really truly suffered from eating disorders- but I have had body image issues.  

 

I can tell when it isn't a factual process for me- it's no longer objective.  It becomes subjective and my worth of sucking- or being a fat ass (has happened). 

 

Being determined and sticking with a plan is one thing- but obsessing and attaching negative self image and really derogatory thoughts- that's different.    If I break down and cry because I ate the pizza- I have a problem.  If that makes sense???

I should have picked a different example than the pizza, because you had posted about it already and I wasn't trying to refer to you. I shoulda used Tub of ice cream. (That would be my weakness! )

 

Breaking down and crying over self image at any point, that signifies a bigger issue, I think for sure.  I do think the obsession over determination conversation is an interesting one... I'm eating blackberries and blue berries right now... At the office, they brought in doughnuts in our daily meeting, and I was like. Oh my god, WANT.

But I didn't take. I'm a good boy.  Also, some people might consider my level of dedicaton obsessive, but at the same time, I like the idea of having a cheat week, more than a cheat day.  Wherein I'll spend a solid month being really good with almost no cheating, or at least I shift around calories in meals to "cheat" a bit on one meal, but then on cheat week, i'll allow myself to eat things I normally wouldn't, in addition to my diet meals.  Like a piece of cheesecake. (OM NOM)  I wouldn't eat cheesecake every day, but for one week, I just wouldn't care what I did outside of my normal diet.

[marionette]

 

Breaking down and crying over self image at any point, that signifies a bigger issue, I think for sure.  I do think the obsession over determination conversation is an interesting one... I'm eating blackberries and blue berries right now... At the office, they brought in doughnuts in our daily meeting, and I was like. Oh my god, WANT.

But I didn't take. I'm a good boy.  Also, some people might consider my level of dedicaton obsessive...

 

I wouldn't. If you had a bit of donut you aren't about to go spend an extra 3 hours on the treadmill, or abstain from eating the rest of the day, or think of some other way to "punish" yourself.

 

A lot of dieters seem to think that diet = punishment and a misstep just throws them. My boss looks at me funny for my whole milk cappuccinos for example because she has been trained, since she was a teen, that whole milk = bad. She seems to think that I work out constantly because of how I eat, as opposed to the other way around. Sadly this is how most people think and it is how the diet industry has trained people to think. 

 

You would think people would learn to ignore the industry that keeps seeing increased profits as obesity keeps rising...

[Waldo]

lucidzfl, on 24 May 2013 - 10:18, said:

Also, some people might consider my level of dedicaton obsessive

This, in a round about way, is what I was getting at.

I go way beyond what some would consider obsessive behaviour (I weight myself 3x a day for example; that chart I posted doesn't make itself, I never ever miss tracking cals/macros/exericse and never ever miss 7 day a week workouts), but don't really see a problem with it, I'm just determined.

[lucidzfl]

Waldo, tracking constantly is a GREAT way to analyze and tweak results.  After a few days, NO one can remember what they had for lunch/dinner, etc.  Sometimes I think I've been better than I have.  Then I look back and go, oh  man, I was eating 325 calories extra a day in just butter... Plus, with weight lifting, analyzing every workout really allows you to advance as soon as you posisbly can instead of just "increasing weight every two weeks" or whatever.  I get up, i work out, i immediately forget what I did.  The next night, I sit down and analyze my workout over the last several and see how I rated my excercises,  Once full body reps or both arms/legs reps have become Medium difficulty on the third set, I increase the weight of that exercise.  My workout is constantly changing, so why focus on set times to increase weight.  If my curls are ready to increase after 1 week but my shoulder presses take 3 weeks to get stronger, why make the other rely on a different body set.

 

I do not think there is such a thing as TOO Much analysis or data.  And as for "over thinking", I let the numbers do all the thinking.  My guesses and assumptions are solely to establish a baseline.  I have to adjust the numbers based on performance.

 

You guys are making me want to eat out today... Maybe sashimi.

[cline]

i dunno.  I lost 50lbs without rigorous tracking beyond making sure my macros were good (so about 2 mos of tracking), wo rigorous weighing.  I ate all the yolks, reasonable fat, and cut out the pasta, carbs, and crap.  And I still drank (within reason).

 

And I ate more than 1750 calories/day.  And I'm a girl and I lost a lot of fat. 

 

And I've kept it off.

 

and yeah, I sweat some of my diet pretty mightily sometimes but for the most part, day to day, I manage wo obsessing.

 

Oh and I just got labs and eating all the yolks and all the fat and all the meat (and I do mean bacon and eggs almost every day) my cholesterol is beyond awesome, my glucose is beyond awesome, etc.  My spousal unit's panels look the same way.

 

I'd go for less advice from the Rock (but I love him too!) and if you want to cut a bit, keep eating but cut carbs (fruit!).  Did you check out eat to perform? 

[lucidzfl]

cline, if you don't mind my asking, whats your height/weight/bf%?

 

I lost 35 lbs without overthinking anything too.  I'm getting to the point where I need to be more specific now...

 

When you have plenty to lose, its WAY easier to see losses like that.

 

ETA: Waldo, you still live in Atlanta?  There's a guy at my office looks just like you!

[Waldo]

And as for "over thinking"

Over thinking is a dumb phrase.  

 

 

(much in the same was overtraining is a lazy phrase)

[Waldo]

ETA: Waldo, you still live in Atlanta?  There's a guy at my office looks just like you!

Yes.

I work near the Airport.

[I-Jo]

This, in a round about way, is what I was getting at.

I go way beyond what some would consider obsessive behaviour (I weight myself 3x a day for example; that chart I posted doesn't make itself, I never ever miss tracking cals/macros/exericse and never ever miss 7 day a week workouts), but don't really see a problem with it, I'm just determined.

yes- but you don't have negative feelings attached to this.

 

You do it because you want results- and it's a method.  You are factual about it. I bet you wouldn't break down (in any form) or have a negative reaction if you missed a day. 

 

I don't usually miss my work out days. I don't- there is no reason not to.  Being tired or too busy isn't an excuse.

But occasionally I have to work late- and sometimes I'll do something at home- sometimes I won't- I don't feel like I'm going to be bloated and fat and awful because I missed ONE workout. 

Same with food.   I have to remind myself- while I'm working toward a goal- and I'm pushing for it- I can't let it consume my thoughts and my waking time and my emotions.