Introverts, Social Misfits and the Terror of Talking to People

[alienjenn]

All of life is a game...

The evil dancing circus monkeys that live in my phone rarely let my communications come through appropriately

[Machete]

To me it's a battle; a one-on-one skirmish between me and society. I rehearse and get my lines ready while I'm alone, prepare myself mentally and emotionally the night prior, and go to war.

 

This is how I am every time I walk out of my room every day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCtyUvpXFH4

[Artinum]

Well, excuse me if I'd rather not have a bunch of tactics used against me to get me to do things I wouldn't otherwise do. Think I'll learn some of them just to see what I should watch out for and counteract. This is one game I'd rather opt out of.

 

That can and does happen - con-artists are the obvious example. Less subtle ones include the telemarketers who call me up trying to sell me something and respond to my "I'm not interested" with something like "you're not interested in saving money?" The media does the same thing - the right words and phrases can colour the tone of a headline and prime you towards a particular bias.

 

You can't opt out of the game completely without becoming a total hermit. Learning a few tricks so you can avoid being conned is very sensible. But you do have a choice over who you want to play with, and there's no need to use any tricks yourself if you don't want to. If your aim is to have fun, there's really no need for them.

[Machete]

Well, excuse me if I'd rather not have a bunch of tactics used against me to get me to do things I wouldn't otherwise do. Think I'll learn some of them just to see what I should watch out for and counteract. This is one game I'd rather opt out of.

 

The entire concept of society is based one central principle: compromise. The Führer, Hitler, was a guy who did not believe in compromise. Instead, he was true to himself, said "fuck what everyone else thinks/feels", opted out of what was socially-acceptable behavior, and killed a bunch of people. This may be an extreme example, but where are lines drawn, really?

[Silo]

I keep thinking of George Costanza yelling "we are living in a SOCIETY!"

Sorry, but certain social skills are just a must, even if they go against what you want to be doing at the moment. I'm a manager at work. I have plenty of days when I'd like to hermit it up in my office and talk to nobody. But I've trained myself to go out and talk to each person whether I have something work related to talk about or not. That's not conning my employees. It's basic management--communicate and interact with your staff.

[BarrensChat]

The Führer, Hitler, was a guy who did not believe in compromise. Instead, he was true to himself, said "fuck what everyone else thinks/feels", opted out of what was socially-acceptable behavior, and killed a bunch of people. This may be an extreme example, but where are lines drawn, really?

 

He was a master manipulator who broke his word time and again and kept around people he found useful, even though he knew they were really dubious. He was also an expert at managing his inner circle so that no clique would get the upper hand on another. 

 

No, what I'm talking about is honesty and directness. Just state the facts and be respectful, without resorting to perfidious subliminal techniques to influence someone without their knowledge or consent. That's what I understand by the term 'social skills'. I know, my view is probably paranoid and skewed. But having been stabbed in the back more than once, I loathe all manner of manipulation.

[Phytomancer]

He was a master manipulator who broke his word time and again and kept around people he found useful, even though he knew they were really dubious. He was also an expert at managing his inner circle so that no clique would get the upper hand on another. 

 

No, what I'm talking about is honesty and directness. Just state the facts and be respectful, without resorting to perfidious subliminal techniques to influence someone without their knowledge or consent. That's what I understand by the term 'social skills'. I know, my view is probably paranoid and skewed. But having been stabbed in the back more than once, I loathe all manner of manipulation.

 

You're right, sometimes manipulation can hurt, but I think there are more than manipulation in social skills.

 

Using these skills, you can make someone feel good about themselves. You can make them become a better person and think it's their own idea. You can make people just happy even when you are not. It's not always lie. It's about knowing when someone needs a hug, a pep talk, or another person to talk to. 

 

But it's a tool, so people can use it both ways. It's like a knife. You can use it to cook someone a homemade delight or stab them with it. 

[Machete]

He was a master manipulator who broke his word time and again and kept around people he found useful, even though he knew they were really dubious. He was also an expert at managing his inner circle so that no clique would get the upper hand on another. 

 

No, what I'm talking about is honesty and directness. Just state the facts and be respectful, without resorting to perfidious subliminal techniques to influence someone without their knowledge or consent. That's what I understand by the term 'social skills'. I know, my view is probably paranoid and skewed. But having been stabbed in the back more than once, I loathe all manner of manipulation.

 

I'm talking about his relationship with the world, not his personal acquaintances. He did what he thought was right, without caring about what society would feel about it. And when you think about it, he is only evil because society in general has labeled him so.

 

"Respect" is a part of compromise. People act "respectfully" because there are other people around to be "respected". If you don't swear around children but still swear when there are only adults around you're already compromising. The people who are honest and don't care about what society thinks, who have no filter and have minimal compromise for other people, are called "douchebags". They never bothered with the social skills and the tedium of pleasing other people, so they just shamelessly take what they want. Like with anything, honesty can be abused. What everyone I think is trying to tell you is to achieve a balance between being a douchebag and being a pussy (i.e. a Nice Guy®). It's called "assertiveness". Learn to ask people for what you want without being a douche about it; learning to compromise.

 

And yes, I get it. I've been stabbed in the back all my life. And it will probably happen again, because I am an easy target. But I won't let that stop me from interacting with society, because I can't butcher my own chickens and I really like chicken tenders. I use other people to get my chicken tenders, and they use me to get money to buy things. That's society - people using each other. It's not lying, it's diplomacy. And unless you plan to live your life as a legitimate hermit, you are going to have to interact with people. Learning how to do so, learning social skills, learning how to "play the game" would allow you to communicate better. For example, eye contact. A person is more likely to trust you if you maintain eye contact. Do you think another person should trust you? Probably. If making eye contact is "just not your style", would attempting to maintain it (or even faking it by looking at the nose) be considered "manipulative"? I don't think so. You're just playing the game. I'm autistic. I'm not even expected to be properly communicating with people, but from years of practicing social skills, everyone now just thinks I'm weird / foreign. I will probably never be able to connect with another individual on a personal level, but I am not going to stop trying. It didn't stop the thread starter Artinum either. "If I were dropped out of a plane into the ocean and told the nearest land was a thousand miles away, I'd still swim. And I'd despise the one who gave up." (Maslow) Having a disadvantaged life is no excuse for failure. I think mostly every single one of us in here has been taken advantage of, tricked, cast out, or screwed by society in general.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kZg_ALxEz0

[Machete]

You're right, sometimes manipulation can hurt, but I think there are more than manipulation in social skills.

 

Using these skills, you can make someone feel good about themselves. You can make them become a better person and think it's their own idea. You can make people just happy even when you are not. It's not always lie. It's about knowing when someone needs a hug, a pep talk, or another person to talk to. 

 

But it's a tool, so people can use it both ways. It's like a knife. You can use it to cook someone a homemade delight or stab them with it. 

 

Exactly. You tell someone it's going to be all right, even though you know you know for a fact that it's not. Because society, dammit.

 

 

And here's a secret that I have found out about talking to [new] women: they don't think that flirting (and being good at it) is manipulation at all. Dressing nice means that you put an effort into yourself. Being playful and flirting makes interaction fun and exciting for the both of you (because you both know how to play the game). Win-win. Interaction should be fun, not a job interview. (I have actually tried the job interview method. I had notes that contained hundreds of questions that progressively became more personal.) Cold, hard facts are not fun or exciting. Women who are looking to socialize usually do not want the boring truth (unless that's part of the routine.)

 

[Phytomancer]

 I will probably never be able to connect with another individual on a personal level, but I am not going to stop trying.

 

 

I find this hitting home very hard.

 

I don't have autism, but I constantly move from place to place without stopping since I was a child. I don't do deep connection.

 

I make people like me, but I feel detached to everyone. I care about them and I want everyone to be happy, but none of them is a part of my life. I feel that I can walk away from every single one of them. Sometimes I am scared of myself-- that I actually don't have a heart to truly love someone and that I am actually just a monster masked as a very bubbly, lovable man. And one day, I will end up hurting everyone around me.

 

But that wouldn't stop me from trying to truly, deeply, unconditionally love someone, no matter how long it takes.  

[Machete]

I find this hitting home very hard.

 

I don't have autism, but I constantly move from place to place without stopping since I was a child. I don't do deep connection.

 

I make people like me, but I feel detached to everyone. I care about them and I want everyone to be happy, but none of them is a part of my life. I feel that I can walk away from every single one of them. Sometimes I am scared of myself-- that I actually don't have a heart to truly love someone and that I am actually just a monster masked as a very bubbly, lovable man. And one day, I will end up hurting everyone around me.

 

But that wouldn't stop me from trying to truly, deeply, unconditionally love someone, no matter how long it takes.  

 

I know the feeling. I used to fancy myself as a porcupine - I try to get close to people but I end up hurting them. And the tighter they hug, the more they get stabbed.

 

So I keep everyone at an arm's distance, maybe revealing something intimate to a certain group of people whom I have nothing invested in, and a different intimate story to another totally unrelated group. People pretty much know everything about me; it's just that no one knows the whole story. And I've arranged for it to be so that they wouldn't be able to put coherent chapters together to figure one out.

 

I've generally just kept myself useful to people so that they would want me around. I've developed quite a few entertaining, albeit probably impractical skills over the years (and some useful ones.) I'm the guy at the party who does all the beer and snack runs, works the grill all night, cares for the drunks, and cleans up after.

 

This is very challenging in the military. You are thrust into a close-knit group of guys for a certain amount of time. You live in close proximity for prolonged periods and share a connection supposedly deeper than familial ties (blood is thicker than water - the bond from the blood shed by brothers in the battlefield is stronger than the one from the water shed by brothers in the womb). For a time, they are your family. You sweat and cry and bleed with them. You're supposed to trust them with your life; for them to watch your six, and you theirs. Then you get reassigned. Or they get reassigned. (Or worse, die.) And you have to start all over again, eventually asking yourself, "what's the point?"

 

Sometimes when I think of life, I feel like a piece of driftwood washed up on shore. (Haruki Murakami)

 

[WillToPower]

Ah the hedgehog's dilemma...

 

I'm an introvert, and am fairly comfortable with that fact. I also have enough social skills to be a part of a variety of social groups and to be on good terms with the people that I interact with. My struggle lies in building relationships - I have lots of acquaintances, but few people that I would actually call "friends". I feel like I am incapable of building the connections that are necessary for close relationships.

 

Nowadays, I've pretty much given up on the whole social interaction thing. There are only two types of situations in which I interact with people: 1) mandatory situations like work, volunteering, and school, and 2) group events. Very few people contact me or actively seek me out, and even less do so in order to spend one-on-one time with me. I've stopped making an effort, because I have never seen results. I know that there are group events that I don't hear about or that I don't get invited to, which convinces me that I'm not really a part of any of these social scenes.

 

I know that, in the case of a lot of these groups, everybody else already knew each other. I doubt that I'll ever actually get close to people, because they've already got other people. All in all, it makes me feel like the problem is me. I don't know what it is: Do I not bring anything new to the table?

 

I won't pretend to like the fact that I've resigned myself to being dead to the world.

I just don't see the use of trying when all of the evidence points to inevitable failure.

[AliTheDrugDealer]

I'm a rhino!

 

Also, I think I might have a split personality.  I'm quite shy around people I don't know and in situations I'm not too familiar with.  But put me in my lab coat, and I suddenly become very assertive.  It's weird.

[WillToPower]

I think that that is completely normal.

 

It has to do with knowledge, experience, and comfort. When you're in the lab, you know what you are doing, what needs to be done, and who you are dealing with. These are places, situations, and people that you are familiar with. There is a big contrast between how people deal with that which is familiar and that which is not. I know that I would be shy in these situations - I don't know the "rules" of certain situations nor do I know the people who are involved, which means that I will definitely hold back until I learn those rules.

 

This might also have to do with the fact that things that some people just aren't comfortable with - every person has places, situations, and people that they don't really like to deal with or that they are not used to dealing with. Or it could be a combination of both of these factors.

 

I wouldn't call these different "selves" different personalities.

They're more like facets of a gem - each facet shines differently depending on where the light is.

[StillWaters]

So my mom talked to me yesterday about my complete lack of social skills and how I rub people the wrong way, and that the most frightning thing about it is that I genuinely don't mean to. Then she starts describing past social interactions that I was in as examples, and telling me that I need to start trying to improve. The thing is, she isn't telling me anything I don't already know, and that I'm not already trying to do. I KNOW I'm terrible at social interaction, hence the reason I've been trying to change it over the past few months by being more talkative and not shying away from people. But apparently, even that valiant effort fell flat on its face.

 

I seriously don't think my mom understands just how difficult this is for me. She has claimed in the past that she used to be just like me and how she eventually learned how to be more social, but to be honest, I'm not buying it. She may have had some difficulty with social interaction in the past, but I don't believe it was anywhere close to being as bad as me.

 

Every day I run different social situations through my head think ing about what the appropriate thing to say would be, and I can never decide on what the right thing actually is. Every so often, when I get home at the end of the day, I run thorugh all the times I spoke to someone that day and determine how likely it was that I sounded like a social dumbass. When anyone tries to make small talk, my brain is similar to a broken down car trying to start up when I try to think of things to talk about so I don't come off as rude or stand off-ish. Before I talk to anyone for any reason outside of a work environment, I always think carefully about what I'm going to say, almost to the point of mentally writing a script, and yet I still find some way to screw it up.

 

My mom has also commented on how my sister and I never talk to each other despite living in the same house. That we never talk about what is going on in our lives or how work was or how our day went. I seriously don't think she has any clue how much I hate those questions. "How was work?" "How was your day?" I absolutely HATE these questions with the passion of a thousand burning suns. How the fuck am I supposed to answer that?! 'It was the same as yesterday.' The thing is, I can never find anything to say, and I think that is what she and everyone else has trouble understanding about me. There are long stretches of time when I honestly have NOTHING to say to anyone. I'm not being snotty, or rude, or antisocial. I really can't think of anything to say. At least, not anything that people would want to listen to and wouldn't cause me to fuck up the interaction.

 

I'm at a loss for what to do anymore. I've read books, I've watched web seminars, I've taken a course on public speaking, I've read numerous articles online, I've even taken jobs that force me to learn how to talk to people (retail cashier and technical support in a call center) but apparently, none of it is working. I still come across as rude or creepy when taking time to think about the things I say before I say them, I still sound like I'm shutting people down after mentally scripting a polite way to refuse an offer for something, and I still sound anitsocial when I resort to giving short, close ended responses during small talk because I can't think of anything better to say that will keep the conversation going. It makes me want to just go back to surrounding myself with my hobbies and being invisible. But then if I did that, I'd get passed over for promotions, pay raises, and other opportunities.

 

Sorry for the long rant, but I had to tell someone, and I don't think my mom would understand any of this.

[Artinum]

StillWaters, it sounds like there are two things going on here and they both drive your mother crazy. One is that you're socially awkward, and hey, you really ought to fix that, and I'll help by pointing out every failure you've ever made until you do something about it. Because obviously fat people lose weight by being told how fat they are on a regular basis. The beatings will continue until morale improves...

 

I think part of the problem here is the other thing going on - you're an introvert. You don't need or want to talk to people all that often. Living with someone and barely saying a word to them is my idea of bliss. What's the point of all these questions? I don't care about the details of how your day went (obviously if you come home particularly happy or upset, there's something to tell, but most of the time... meh). and you don't care about mine either. We already know we like each other. We don't need to affirm it every day with inane chatter.

 

When you force it in a social situation, it often goes wrong. Go ahead and be antisocial. If you're polite and friendly when you DO speak, most people will eventually figure out that you only speak when you have reason to. Mothers worry about us all the time (it's in their job description) but they aren't automatically right about us.

[StillWaters]

I think what I'm most worried about, is that when I do have something to say and I say it, it gets interpreted as neither polite nor friendly, despite my best efforts to accomplish the opposite, and its going to end up costing me dearly some day.

[Phytomancer]

Stillwaters, here're my takes.

 

1. Those small talk questions themselves are meaningless. However, it can test how the other is feeling without intruding there personal space too much. (If nothing happens, a 'great' an done will suffice.) However, if you can read each other's body languages, you don't have to ask these questions. You can cut it straight too 'something good happened?' and 'what's wrong?'

 

2. You're worrying too much you screw it up, it seems. Social interactions is part theory and part knee-jerk reflex. If you don't have the reflex (like me) theories will apply. However, if you have some instinct in social interactions and you have practiced it for quite some times. (I'm guessing from your language skills that you are older than 2,) you will have an automatic reaction to certain things. At least you turned your head to someone who's talking to you, right?

 

Now, those automatic reflex and theories use different parts of your brain. If you rely on the theories so much, you screw your automatic reflex. That's why many athletes screw up their important games: they overthink it.

 

3. You can always say things you want. People who like you will like you. People who dislike you will do. I say things to accomplish my goal (for people to like me; to be friendly,) and people who like me enjoy having my attention. People who dislike me will think of me as pretentious, insincere, and manipulative. I think they instinctively know I have detachment issues and think I have hidden motives. I don't. I just want to belong well.  

[Machete]

What I've discovered is that I suck big-time at determining what other people are thinking. The beauty of it is that it goes both ways - I don't realize when I'm fucking up, but I can't tell when I'm doing brilliantly either. So I figured I'll just stop trying to manipulate what I can't. People will think what they want to think; there's no changing that. And if they think I'm a creep or an idiot, then nothing I do on my part will convince them otherwise. Sure, I'll cry myself to sleep a little about an anonymous peer review at work where 98% of my co-workers think I'm a piece of shit, but I won't worry too much about it later. There's nothing I can do. If I knew how to make people love me I'd probably be a congressman by now. Just remember that our perceptions of the world are always tinted. We see what we want to see. What we see happening may not be what other people are seeing, and we may actually turn out to have much more influence in others than we think.

 

Social awkwardness is more common than one would expect. There's just a lot of barriers in introvert-extrovert communication that it seems like you're speaking different languages. Put an extrovert out of place (i.e. in our territory) and s/he will look like an idiot too. I think that most of us just find a way to hide said awkwardness as much as possible. Some put on a game face and cultivate a separate social persona, some develop a dark air of mystery and intrigue, some just fuck-up so much that they eventually learn how to actually do it, maybe not too well, but well enough. Me, I just stopped giving a fuck about fucking-up. I walk into every interaction expecting to fuck-up, expecting to look stupid, expecting to get hurt. Whatever happens, happens. It's just another interaction that I'll have to power through before I can eventually retire to my chambers; I might as well try to entertain myself. If they think I suck, fuck them. They don't know me, who gives a shit what they think? I'm an autistic midget with cauliflower ear who couldn't get a hooker to sleep with him. What more can they say?

 

 

Another thing though, once you find someone who is currently sucking worse than you, you will probably look back, smile, and say "I've been there" (even if you don't know the exact details of the other person's situation and/or level of resiliency). And maybe you'll tell the poor soul "It gets better. Look at me - I'm still here." and that poor sap will probably not believe you. Until s/he meets someone who in turn is worse-off.

 

"Life's greatest comfort is being able to look over your shoulder and see people worse off, waiting in line behind you." (Palahniuk)

 

I'm not going to tell you that it gets better, because I'd probably be lying. It doesn't get better - you do.

[Prairie]

I'm just gonna put it out there that being introverted and poor communication or social skills don't necessarily go hand in hand. I used to work in an office of about ten introverts and two extroverts. On the whole, I'd say the introverts were better communicators, possibly because we were more likely to and observe/think about things before opening our mouths. 

 

And I've definitely known at least a couple of socially-awkward extroverts. Man, they were really something! 

[Silo]

 

My mom has also commented on how my sister and I never talk to each other despite living in the same house. That we never talk about what is going on in our lives or how work was or how our day went. 

 

This is nonsense on your mom's part. My husband and his sister very rarely spoke to each other when they lived at home. They are close in age (17 months difference) so it wasn't that. They just didn't have anything to say so they didn't say anything. They get along perfectly fine and make it a point to visit each other a few times a year now that we have families of our own but they weren't BFFs just because they shared DNA. It's not reasonable for your mom to try to manage your relationship with your sister like that so I would just try to shrug it off.

[Artinum]

I went with Machete's suggestion of cultivating a persona. It wasn't a particularly good one at first, but I refined it over time. And then I started using it more often, and now it's become so automatic that I cannot remember how to stop. This used to worry me. Then I realised that the non-persona version of me was pretty useless in these situations, so why would I want to go back to that?

 

And I could happily watch Tyrion all day.

[Machete]

A few guidelines:

 

Smooth Encounters | Psychology Today

[Zorch]

I'm just gonna put it out there that being introverted and poor communication or social skills don't necessarily go hand in hand. I used to work in an office of about ten introverts and two extroverts. On the whole, I'd say the introverts were better communicators, possibly because we were more likely to and observe/think about things before opening our mouths. 

 

And I've definitely known at least a couple of socially-awkward extroverts. Man, they were really something! 

Agree with this.  From my perspective one component of it may be that introverts aren't fans of long conversations, and thus we focus on accomplishing our communication quickly, and efficiently.  I find at work that individuals who are more extroverted and enjoy speaking more often drag discussions out far longer than necessary, whereas introverts are often more succinct and focused in their discussions.  In an environment where time is at a premium, the introvert's approach is better received by some than the extrovert's.

 

And yes, socially awkward extroverts(I know one at work) make me want to punch something(not them - that would be illegal!)

[WillToPower]

I went with Machete's suggestion of cultivating a persona. It wasn't a particularly good one at first, but I refined it over time.And then I started using it more often, and now it's become so automatic that I cannot remember how to stop. This used to worry me. Then I realised that the non-persona version of me was pretty useless in these situations, so why would I want to go back to that?

I wanted to ask you a question about this: How does one go about cultivating a persona?

 

I think that I would like to work on it, but I can't help but wonder how successful I'll be - I'll more than likely spend the rest of my undergrad interacting with the same social groups that I've interacted with for the past however many years; they know the person that I am now, so I don't know how well creating a new "me" will work with these people. I can't help but wonder how they would react or what they would think if I underwent a shift in personality, in interests, in mannerisms, etc.

 

Do you have any suggestions?