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6-1 Fasting


Dradis

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I'm still searching for my perfect setup at the moment and wondered if anyone had any thoughts on the following. I'll explain how i'm set up currently, what the problem is and then what i wondered might be better.

 

Currently

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I am still trying to lose body fat predominently.

I've been "cutting" for 13months, although i am just off the back of a 3 week diet break.

I'm on 1700-1800 calories per day

Currently i'm on a ketogenic diet, which i might or might not stick with, but i think thats is fairly irrelevant here.

Following 16-8 IF routine. Feeding window is noon-8pm.

I do fasted strength training mon-weds-fri in the morning, after some BCAAs.
I also do some cycle interval training after food on mon-weds-fri at about 2pm

 

Problem

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My workouts are suffering, as you would expect on a 700 calorie per day deficit.

 

Proposed plan

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Abandon 16-8.

Up my calories mon-sat. Either maintenance or a really small tad over.
Saturday night-sunday night is a total fast. Will probably take BCAAs still. Sunday night i have something around 500 cals, not sure what considering not working out til the next morning. Suggestions?

The idea being that i would be fuelled fairly well for my workouts but then on sunday i would bring my weekly calories into a deficit for the week.

My body would also be fuelled for the 48 hours (or close for fridays workout) after strength training, which seems to be the figured banded about for increased protein synthesis.
Obviously i would not lose weight as quickly as i would probably be only running a max 2000 calorie deficit per week rather than my current 4900 (TDEE with the exercise is about 2500)

Does anyone think this would help my workouts at all, or would the fact i'm still in a deficit over the longer term mean they'd still suffer anyway? If my workouts aren't going to improve i'd rather stay at a bigger deficit and get it over and done with sooner.

Anything else i might be missing?

Thanks

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What you are proposing is essentially the Eat-Stop-Eat form of intermittent fasting.  If you eat at or just below maintenance most days, your workouts won't suffer at all.  Eating above maintenance will negate any fat-loss effects from the fast.  In other words, you'll probably break even for the week.  You'll probably see some success with a plan like this, but I would not go over maintenance.  Even 100 calories under would probably be good.  But one 24 hour fast a week won't impact your workouts at all, as your glycogen stores should still be set most of the time.  You can still do the 16-8 schedule the rest of the week too, just with maintenance calories. 

 

If I might hazard a guess, your problem with your workouts is probably coming from the ketogenic diet more than anything else.  Keto is pretty rough on most people.  On top of that, your workouts will, generally speaking, suffer from a day to day defecit regardless of what type of energy source you are eating.  Ultimately you have to choose your priorities when it comes to dieting and training.  Cut and lose intensity, or bulk and go beast mode.  It's very difficult to find a middle ground and be successful.

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What you are proposing is essentially the Eat-Stop-Eat form of intermittent fasting.  If you eat at or just below maintenance most days, your workouts won't suffer at all.  Eating above maintenance will negate any fat-loss effects from the fast.  In other words, you'll probably break even for the week.  You'll probably see some success with a plan like this, but I would not go over maintenance.  Even 100 calories under would probably be good.  But one 24 hour fast a week won't impact your workouts at all, as your glycogen stores should still be set most of the time.  You can still do the 16-8 schedule the rest of the week too, just with maintenance calories. 

 

If I might hazard a guess, your problem with your workouts is probably coming from the ketogenic diet more than anything else.  Keto is pretty rough on most people.  On top of that, your workouts will, generally speaking, suffer from a day to day defecit regardless of what type of energy source you are eating.  Ultimately you have to choose your priorities when it comes to dieting and training.  Cut and lose intensity, or bulk and go beast mode.  It's very difficult to find a middle ground and be successful.

 

Oh really, i didn't know it was a "thing" already. Thats cool as i can research it some more. Thanks. I tried googling around for 6-1 and only came up with some blogs of people doing it rather than any theory/guides/whatever.

 

Sticking to the keto is actually pretty easy so far, apart from the workouts. I've not had any of the negative symptoms others have and generally my energy levels are ok.  Even the beginning of workouts are fine, but i tail off pretty rapidly, which again you might expect with keto and a deficit.

 

16-8 plus eat-stop-eat sounds like a great idea. Not a massive breakfast fan so if i can get more lunch/dinner then i might do that. Although maybe i'll chug half a protein shake before and half after my strength workouts. Not really 16-8 but close :)

 

So when you say that at just under maintenance my workouts won't suffer i assume you mean i will continue to get strength gains and size needs a surplus? That makes it sound good as i want to cut the fat a bit while getting my strength up to a decent level and then gain some bulk later.

Any suggestions what i should eat sunday night for monday mornings workout? Carbs + protein? Or is it irrelevant with sleep in between? Weds & Fri will be fuelled by my near maintenance calories from the previous days but mondays will be coming off the back of a fast day.

I'm off to do some googling. Thanks!

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For Sunday nights if you're talking about doing a refeed, lots of carbs and keep the fat minimal, if you're going over your budget.  If you plan on staying at or below maintenance then macros don't matter as much.

 

At just under maintenance, strength and mass gains really depend on how much bodyfat you have.  If you have a ton of stored energy to rely on, then yes you can gain strength and under the right conditions even a little size.  But a lot of strength comes from practicing the move and becoming more accustomed to the actual lifts themselves.  Gaining strength and mass in a defecit while not actually impossible, is for all intents and purposes impossible.  And if you're running a ketogenic diet, I would be amazed to see your strength improve much.  Again, not impossible, but very difficult to do.

 

Why are you doing a ketogenic diet in the first place?  Trying to gain strength, lose weight, do intermittent fasting, and doing it all in a ketogenic state is really pushing it.  You're burning the candle at both ends.  You might consider prioritizing, focusing on the fatloss first and then getting psyched up for strength gains later on.

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I'm trying keto to push through this bodyfat plateau i seem to be at. I've been at 25-26% for a while so i went on a diet break and thought i'd hit it with 3-4 weeks of keto to see if i could push through. Part of me is tempted to see it through for another 1.5 weeks to make the 3 weeks but my workouts are fairly miserable.

 

Totally agree with you regarding burning the candle. This was never a long term thing, just a bit of a short, sharp shock.

 

I'm still a bit torn on my goals. I do REALLY want to get down to maybe 18-20% bodyfat but the more i continue the more i want to prioritise working out and get stronger and fitter. Like i said i've been "dieting" for 13months now and i think i may be a little tired of it, but i haven't reached my goal yet.

Maybe this eat-stop-eat could be a happy medium. Decent workouts but still losing bodyfat albeit at a slower rate.

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13 months is a long freaking time dude.  You might want to take a break when your'e done with your keto experiment and eat at maintenance for a while.  A while as in, two months.  You'll be amazed at the difference it can make when you start a cut again. 

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13 months is a long freaking time dude.  You might want to take a break when your'e done with your keto experiment and eat at maintenance for a while.  A while as in, two months.  You'll be amazed at the difference it can make when you start a cut again. 

 

Tell me about it, but i had a lot to lose :(

This eat-stop-eat at maintenance 6 days and fast on the 7th does sound more tempting the more i read though. Thoughts on that vs 2 months maintenance?

 

Thanks a lot for all your info btw!

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If you did it at maintenance calories you'd probably still see progress and it would be a lot less stressful.  In my opinion at least.  You can always start another intense cut if your progress stalls.

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Tell me about it, but i had a lot to lose :(

This eat-stop-eat at maintenance 6 days and fast on the 7th does sound more tempting the more i read though. Thoughts on that vs 2 months maintenance?

 

Thanks a lot for all your info btw!

 

When I cut I do large deficits.  It doesn't take long until I start to feel a drop off in my weight training.  When I get to that point I change to three day workouts at high intensity.  I then start eating just below maintenance on those three days with the extra calories coming mostly an hour or two before I workout.  I have found that is the sweet spot for me.  Basically calorie cycling without any of the fancy names attached to it.

 

Other than that I pretty much stick to my normal feeding window (1PM-9PM).  I IF only because it is the easiest way for me.

 

It might be as simple for you to instead of cutting at 4900 a week you cut at 3500 a week and add the 1400 calories on workout days to fuel your weight training.  Like me it sounds like you are not much of a breakfast person.  I just grab a protein/energy bar before my workout and have the rest as more ice cream at night. You would just need to find something that works within your keto diet.

 

I have done the one day a week fast.  It ends up being close to 40 hours each time (Say Saturday night at 9PM until 1 PM Monday afternoon) .  I have no problem doing it, but it absolutely wrecks me the next two days.  I want to eat everything I see and it just isn't worth it to me to put myself through that type of misery.  It reminds me of being at a really low BF% when all you do is think about food and nothing makes the hunger go away.  I have buddies that eat-stop-eat and don't have any of those experiences.

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When I cut I do large deficits.  It doesn't take long until I start to feel a drop off in my weight training.  When I get to that point I change to three day workouts at high intensity.  I then start eating just below maintenance on those three days with the extra calories coming mostly an hour or two before I workout.  I have found that is the sweet spot for me.  Basically calorie cycling without any of the fancy names attached to it.

 

Other than that I pretty much stick to my normal feeding window (1PM-9PM).  I IF only because it is the easiest way for me.

 

It might be as simple for you to instead of cutting at 4900 a week you cut at 3500 a week and add the 1400 calories on workout days to fuel your weight training.  Like me it sounds like you are not much of a breakfast person.  I just grab a protein/energy bar before my workout and have the rest as more ice cream at night. You would just need to find something that works within your keto diet.

 

I have done the one day a week fast.  It ends up being close to 40 hours each time (Say Saturday night at 9PM until 1 PM Monday afternoon) .  I have no problem doing it, but it absolutely wrecks me the next two days.  I want to eat everything I see and it just isn't worth it to me to put myself through that type of misery.  It reminds me of being at a really low BF% when all you do is think about food and nothing makes the hunger go away.  I have buddies that eat-stop-eat and don't have any of those experiences.

 

Yeah, that is something to consider too. I might try both that and the eat-stop-eat. Its not as if i have to stick with one forever.

The keto isn't necessarily a keeper. I'm gonna stick it out for the next week and a half because that was my goal but after that i'll see what i feel like.

 

Thanks

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