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Hello, everyone! I decided to post here in the Paleo section, as once I looked over the vegan section, I decided to spare myself from being burned at the stake given the title and subject of this post. (Don't Slay This Dragon…) I have an intro. post that you can read through for more detail, but I'll summarize my current state of health:

Survivor of a decade of abuse, during which time weight was low and digestion wrecked (although to be fair I had troubles even when I was a baby and child). Went vegan in February of 2014, and digestion worsened. Saw Dr and went on candida cleanse in June of 2014. In that same month, I slowly integrated SOME animal proteins in diet. Digestion still bad, but a tad better. In August of 2014, took a comprehensive stool analysis; results showed no signs of infection or compromise, but a slight imbalance of healthy bacteria from stress/anxiety (dealing with personal problems at home). That same month, I came across the Body Ecology Diet. Incorporated fermented foods and coconut water kefir. Helped a little. September 2014, started taking Great Lakes Collagen Hydrosolate. Helped a lot. Mid November 2014-now:

Digestion is getting kind of bad again. Improvements have been made, but still not ideal.

I strain a lot now. Currently taking a probiotic called Prescript Assist, but I am stopping it at the moment to see if it is the culprit behind constipation; it is pre/pro biotic that is soil based.

 

As I am looking to radically transform my health, body, and wellbeing for the better, I am considering adding more animal foods back into my diet (I hate to use the word- I don't diet, I eat). Right now, I eat chicken, fish, and if you want to be technical, the Great Lakes supplement. When I do eat the first two, however, it is only at night. From various sources I have found on the internet, doctors/nutritionists all say that animal foods rot in your intestines, make your body acidic, and leach calcium from the bones.

Somehow, I doubt this would occur in most people; maybe in extreme cases, where there is a lack of dietary fiber and overall poor lifestyle. But still, the rotting in the intestines claim scares me.

 I tried many years ago to eat paleo, and it made me constipated. Of course, I was drinking milk back then (which I later learned I was allergic to; lactose intolerant), and had drastically reduced my fiber and water intake. So maybe I need to be mindful of those prior to approaching a paleolithic-way of eating.

 

So, that's my problem. Anxiety over digestion, and also the ethical side of things, which is why I went vegan in the first place (although my current yoga training advises we do the same; there's a don't ask don't tell policy going on there right now, as I saw another student eating a roast beef sandwich from Arbys). Put I am wondering if eating paleo will help out. Because I eat A TON of veggies (I love them; what can I say?), I am wondering if the animal protein will one, help balance out digestion (as too much fiber can be a bad thing, from what I've read), and two, provide minerals that are otherwise very difficult to get in proper coenzyme form from a plant based diet (iron- anemia runs in my family; got to be careful- B12, retinol, zinc, magnesium…). 

 

Because honestly, I am tired of living this way. I am tired of the bloat, constipation, and occasional bouts of diarrhea. I am tired of worrying about going to bathroom or whether or not my IBS is going to act out. I am tired of not being able to get a flat, toned section because of these problems. I want to enjoy my food again. I'm working with a doctor, but our visits are limited due to insurance and health costs. So I am very cautious when it comes to supplements to take and lifestyle factors. 

Most of all, I want to evolve and unlock my true potential, my inner dragon. 
I want to get a toned, lithe body, and be able to eat well and healthy- enough so that I never end up in the hospital, get seriously injured or sick, and can wake up each day like a bada$$. 

 

So, help me out a bit. What to do, tips, advice, support, anything. I'm ready to make a change for the BETTER, and for ALL TIME. No quick fixes. Just sustainable lifestyle modifications.

 

Thanks!

 

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First, welcome! I read your intro--you've overcome a lot already in your life. It's inspiring to see you working to transform your life despite those obstacles.

 

I'll start off by saying that I don't have any experience with the specific health problems that you've had, although I can empathize with struggling to figure out what type of diet (in the nutrition sense of the word) best supports my health. That did turn out to be paleo for me, but it's difficult to say if the same would be true for you. Unless your doctor advises otherwise, probably the fastest way to find out would be to give paleo a try for a month or so and see if you feel better. Since you seem to be sensitive to what you eat, I'd recommend doing a full Whole30, which will also cut out some additives and other foods that may be irritating your digestive system. Essentially, it's an elimination diet--you eat meat, veggies, healthy fats, and fruits for a few weeks to give your system a chance to recover, and then afterwards you can start slowly adding other food groups back in to determine what how you react to them. Your love of vegetables will come in handy--even though most people associate paleo with tons and tons of meat, we probably eat more vegetables than most of the general populace...

 

Re: worries about meat being bad for health/digestion... do you have any sources for this? As a biologist (albeit not a doctor or nutritionist), I'd say that humans are pretty well adapted to digest meat, so I doubt *most* people have problems with meat. However, once again, what works for one person may not work for YOU.

 

The ethical component of eating meat is much more complicated and will have to be a personal decision. I was a vegetarian myself before becoming paleo, but switched because I wasn't thriving on that diet. Again, my advice is to do what's best for you (both for your health and conscience), regardless of what's advocated by a particular group of people (vegan, paleo, or otherwise).

 

I also saw you mentioned lifting in your intro. If you're interested in picking up weights again at some point, feel free to stop by the Warriors guild :).

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Right now, I eat chicken, fish

 

Chicken and fish are great sources of protein!

 

 

 

 

 From various sources I have found on the internet, doctors/nutritionists all say that animal foods rot in your intestines

 

This is a very strange thing to say.

 

Here is what happens when I eat beef. I chew it up and the enzymes in my saliva start working on the protein and fibers. In my stomach, more enzymes and acid further break it down, along with anything else I'm eating (usually broccoli and other veggies). It takes longer to digest than most other types of foods. As it goes through my small intestines, the enzymes and bacteria further break it down. When the nutrients are small enough, the small intestines pull it out and they get sent along their way to supply bodily functions. By the time the mass hits the end of the big intestine, mostly what is left is fiber (mostly from veggies) and dead cells and other waste products from my body. I imagine this is how it happens with most humans.

 

I guess you can call that rotting. Seems like an inappropriate description to me.

 

If you introduce red meat to your diet, do it gradually. Your bacteria population, and to some extent, your enzyme production capacity, need some time to adjust.

 

On a related note, I will be eating prime rib tonight at my company Christmas party tonight. I will make the most of it, and go home with a couple pounds of delicious, nutrient filled, muscle building awesomeness slowly digesting in my stomach. If some hack nutritionists want to say that its rotting in my stomach, I'm not going to care at all. I'll eat their share too.

 

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I am gonna throw up the Catspaw flag on this one. 

 

She's a member. Former vegetarian. Now with her own version of paleo. And knows her stuff. She might have some words of advice for you starting out. 

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I have gone the opposite direction. I was eating a lot of meat every day, but found that the less animal protein I ate, the better my digestion was. It's more when I completely leave dairy out that it goes the best, but meat still doesn't agree with me.

 

Animal foods do lend to body's acidity, but eating alkaline veggies and fruits balances it out pretty well. 

 

I'd suspect it was more of a trigger food or something that was causing your issues. Some people can't handle certain veggies, some can't handle any dairy products, not just lactose, some can't do wheat, etc.

 

I also found a huge factor in my stomach issues, that was that I was drinking tap water regularly. The chlorine in the water was killing the beneficial bacteria in my gut and preventing digestion. Switching to distilled water helped me, too.

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First, welcome! I read your intro--you've overcome a lot already in your life. It's inspiring to see you working to transform your life despite those obstacles.

 

I'll start off by saying that I don't have any experience with the specific health problems that you've had, although I can empathize with struggling to figure out what type of diet (in the nutrition sense of the word) best supports my health. That did turn out to be paleo for me, but it's difficult to say if the same would be true for you. Unless your doctor advises otherwise, probably the fastest way to find out would be to give paleo a try for a month or so and see if you feel better. Since you seem to be sensitive to what you eat, I'd recommend doing a full Whole30, which will also cut out some additives and other foods that may be irritating your digestive system. Essentially, it's an elimination diet--you eat meat, veggies, healthy fats, and fruits for a few weeks to give your system a chance to recover, and then afterwards you can start slowly adding other food groups back in to determine what how you react to them. Your love of vegetables will come in handy--even though most people associate paleo with tons and tons of meat, we probably eat more vegetables than most of the general populace...

 

Re: worries about meat being bad for health/digestion... do you have any sources for this? As a biologist (albeit not a doctor or nutritionist), I'd say that humans are pretty well adapted to digest meat, so I doubt *most* people have problems with meat. However, once again, what works for one person may not work for YOU.

 

The ethical component of eating meat is much more complicated and will have to be a personal decision. I was a vegetarian myself before becoming paleo, but switched because I wasn't thriving on that diet. Again, my advice is to do what's best for you (both for your health and conscience), regardless of what's advocated by a particular group of people (vegan, paleo, or otherwise).

 

I also saw you mentioned lifting in your intro. If you're interested in picking up weights again at some point, feel free to stop by the Warriors guild :).

If you look down the thread, there's a fellow here who also has read in on the acidity of animal proteins. I've read a few articles on this subject, but instead of naming sources, let's just leave it at the fact that any author choosing to elaborate on it is vegan. Again, I detect personal bias to this, as emotions get in the way of fact. I want to see concrete FACT and DETAILs, real evidence, to support their claims. No forum rhetoric, just straight up facts. 

Is the Warriors Guild the lifting section of the forums? As I am still new, I am trying to navigate my way around here and figure out all of these guilds and such.

 

Chicken and fish are great sources of protein!

 

 

 

This is a very strange thing to say.

 

Here is what happens when I eat beef. I chew it up and the enzymes in my saliva start working on the protein and fibers. In my stomach, more enzymes and acid further break it down, along with anything else I'm eating (usually broccoli and other veggies). It takes longer to digest than most other types of foods. As it goes through my small intestines, the enzymes and bacteria further break it down. When the nutrients are small enough, the small intestines pull it out and they get sent along their way to supply bodily functions. By the time the mass hits the end of the big intestine, mostly what is left is fiber (mostly from veggies) and dead cells and other waste products from my body. I imagine this is how it happens with most humans.

 

I guess you can call that rotting. Seems like an inappropriate description to me.

 

If you introduce red meat to your diet, do it gradually. Your bacteria population, and to some extent, your enzyme production capacity, need some time to adjust.

 

On a related note, I will be eating prime rib tonight at my company Christmas party tonight. I will make the most of it, and go home with a couple pounds of delicious, nutrient filled, muscle building awesomeness slowly digesting in my stomach. If some hack nutritionists want to say that its rotting in my stomach, I'm not going to care at all. I'll eat their share too.

Your perfect detail of digestion is what really puts me in a pickle on the subject of animal proteins and digestion. From what I have researched, we humans naturally produce the enzyme protease to digest animal proteins, but not cellulose, which digests plants. That is why we need to chew our vegetables to tiny mush as unlike herbivorous animals (cows, horses, etc) that have multiple stomaches and enzymes to break them down. Yet, from what I have seen from family members, society, and medical reports, a lot of meat can make the body acidic and unwell. 

 I am beginning to wonder if both theories of thought are correct, though- the dosage is the poison. 

Our natural pH is somewhere in the middle, leaning more so towards alkalinity. But getting too 'alkaline' can be dangerous, too. Balance is key, right? So maybe the reason why we need some acidity in the body (which doesn't always come from animal foods; grains, nuts/seeds, and even some starchy tubers all are 'acidic') is to prevent ourselves from getting too alkaline. With that being said, we still need mostly plants, with perhaps a moderate to low consumption of animal foods, be it fish/eggs/poultry/organs/meats, etc. 

 Again, I sense that the answer is right in front of my eyes, I just am so hesitant to take that leap of faith. I know I've been brainwashed to think that we a cruel species that gorges on torture, that the fruits of that torture rot in within us. From my yoga class (we are studying Hindu philosophy; ancient yogic texts forbide animal foods because eating them results in poor karma) to the media and internet personalities (*cough* Freelee the Banana Girl *cough*), I've been guilted to believe these claims. But again, I am privately going against them, and have been doing so for quite some time. For instance, Friday night, I had chicken liver with my dinner (hey, that rhymes)- with a raw kale salad and crunchy cabbage slaw. Yesterday, I had a seared ahi tuna salad with pickled ginger and sauteed mushrooms as a side. On both days, my lunches and dinners were 'vegan'- vegetable soup purees, plant-based protein shakes, big salads; fats from coconut oil, nuts/seeds, protein from sprouted grain protein powders, fermented veggies, leafy greens, cruciferous veggies, etc. In between, I had a warm cup of tea with grassfed Collagen Hydrosolate (12 grams of protein per serving) and/or green juice (low sugar). 

 

 

I am gonna throw up the Catspaw flag on this one. 

 

She's a member. Former vegetarian. Now with her own version of paleo. And knows her stuff. She might have some words of advice for you starting out. 

Okay, I tried to locate Catspaw, and while I did find her page (her version of paleo includes rice; I do that right now as well, in addition to quinoa and millet), I find myself bewildered by the Cult at her doorstep. Just exactly what do I need to learn from her? Are there any direct links to posts she has made that I would benefit from reading?

 

I have gone the opposite direction. I was eating a lot of meat every day, but found that the less animal protein I ate, the better my digestion was. It's more when I completely leave dairy out that it goes the best, but meat still doesn't agree with me.

 

Animal foods do lend to body's acidity, but eating alkaline veggies and fruits balances it out pretty well. 

 

I'd suspect it was more of a trigger food or something that was causing your issues. Some people can't handle certain veggies, some can't handle any dairy products, not just lactose, some can't do wheat, etc.

 

I also found a huge factor in my stomach issues, that was that I was drinking tap water regularly. The chlorine in the water was killing the beneficial bacteria in my gut and preventing digestion. Switching to distilled water helped me, too.

I wrote a lot already in the beginning of this response post, but basically, I am saving my animal protein consumption to the evening. My concern is just continuing to do so. Again, the fear of it rotting in my stomach. But I do feel a lot more 'grounded' when I have some animal protein. Not for every meal; that I know for sure does not mix well. But everyday or every other day, I might consider. So far, it has only been 2-3x a week. I am hesitant to switch it up and have eggs for breakfast. 

 

I've worked with my doctor to find any triggers. So far, we've found hemp (bloat, loose stools, brain fog, fatigue), gums (guar, xanthum), gluten, dairy (#1), too much fructose (mango, orange, etc), garbonzo beans, and some forms of soy. I also had a comprehensive stool analysis, and all we've found is that my digestion has some imbalances that are psychosomatic- more or less, IBS. 

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 Friday night, I had chicken liver with my dinner (hey, that rhymes)- with a raw kale salad and crunchy cabbage slaw. Yesterday, I had a seared ahi tuna salad with pickled ginger and sauteed mushrooms as a side

 

Sounds pretty tasty! I like all that, except the ginger. Ginger is something I cant digest without going full fart-mode. Ginger in soups and stuff where I don't actually eat it is fine, just eating the actual root matter gets me.

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Sounds pretty tasty! I like all that, except the ginger. Ginger is something I cant digest without going full fart-mode. Ginger in soups and stuff where I don't actually eat it is fine, just eating the actual root matter gets me.

As a kid, I could not stand ginger, along with raw carrot and celery. Then, as I got older, and tried green juices (talking about my full vegan days), I started to get used to and even crave it. But hey, everyone has their triggers. 

 One common thing amongst all schools of nutritional thought is that food can be either your greatest medicine or your worst nightmare. I can't digest yogurt, but it has saved the stomaches of countless before me. 

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I've posted my view on the whole "meat rots" thing already, so this is just a little input into the whole "show me evidence" part of that particular debate. A simple search in PubMed yields as the top hit a review from 2010,, from which I have copied the following:

"PURPOSE OF REVIEW:

Update recent advancements regarding the effect of high-animal protein intakes on calcium utilization and bone health.

RECENT FINDINGS:

Increased potential renal acid load resulting from a high protein (intake above the current Recommended Dietary Allowance of 0.8 g protein/kg body weight) intake has been closely associated with increased urinary calcium excretion. However, recent findings do not support the assumption that bone is lost to provide the extra calcium found in urine. Neither whole body calcium balance is, nor are bone status indicators, negatively affected by the increased acid load. Contrary to the supposed detrimental effect of protein, the majority of epidemiological studies have shown that long-term high-protein intake increases bone mineral density and reduces bone fracture incidence. The beneficial effects of protein such as increasing intestinal calcium absorption and circulating IGF-I whereas lowering serum parathyroid hormone sufficiently offset any negative effects of the acid load of protein on bone health.

SUMMARY:

On the basis of recent findings, consuming protein (including that from meat) higher than current Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein is beneficial to calcium utilization and bone health, especially in the elderly. A high-protein diet with adequate calcium and fruits and vegetables is important for bone health and osteoporosis prevention."

 

Again, I think one does not have to worry about the acid/alkaline balance of one's diet, particularly in relation to bone-density. This is because we have systems in place to remove acids from our system as urea; The renal system. What is well-known is that eating a diet extremely high in protein puts additional stress on this system, and can in extreme cases lead to death (rabbit-starvation), but in order to do that you have to basically exist on a diet of pure protein.

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All I can say is that, when I eat a large quantity of grains and/or dairy in my diet, I suffer from GERD pretty bad.  If I stick to a strict paleo diet, I get absolutely no GERD and am pretty happy with my "throughput" if you know what I mean.  So, if it means that I eat meat daily, as long as I'm eating tons of green, orange, red, and yellow fruit and veggies too, then hey, I'll take it.  Nothing is rotting in there--that's a myth.  It's the chemicals we humans use as preservatives in meat that cause cancer, not the meat itself, from what I understand.

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I've posted my view on the whole "meat rots" thing already, so this is just a little input into the whole "show me evidence" part of that particular debate. A simple search in PubMed yields as the top hit a review from 2010,, from which I have copied the following:

"PURPOSE OF REVIEW:

Update recent advancements regarding the effect of high-animal protein intakes on calcium utilization and bone health.

RECENT FINDINGS:

Increased potential renal acid load resulting from a high protein (intake above the current Recommended Dietary Allowance of 0.8 g protein/kg body weight) intake has been closely associated with increased urinary calcium excretion. However, recent findings do not support the assumption that bone is lost to provide the extra calcium found in urine. Neither whole body calcium balance is, nor are bone status indicators, negatively affected by the increased acid load. Contrary to the supposed detrimental effect of protein, the majority of epidemiological studies have shown that long-term high-protein intake increases bone mineral density and reduces bone fracture incidence. The beneficial effects of protein such as increasing intestinal calcium absorption and circulating IGF-I whereas lowering serum parathyroid hormone sufficiently offset any negative effects of the acid load of protein on bone health.

SUMMARY:

On the basis of recent findings, consuming protein (including that from meat) higher than current Recommended Dietary Allowance for protein is beneficial to calcium utilization and bone health, especially in the elderly. A high-protein diet with adequate calcium and fruits and vegetables is important for bone health and osteoporosis prevention."

 

Again, I think one does not have to worry about the acid/alkaline balance of one's diet, particularly in relation to bone-density. This is because we have systems in place to remove acids from our system as urea; The renal system. What is well-known is that eating a diet extremely high in protein puts additional stress on this system, and can in extreme cases lead to death (rabbit-starvation), but in order to do that you have to basically exist on a diet of pure protein.

Thank you for sharing this! It is exactly what I look for with my research. No rhetoric, just facts. Interesting to note is that the study mentioned a diet high in protein (amino acids) in general including meat (therefore acknowledging other protein sources that say vegetarians rely upon) is healthy in general. Still, it does make me feel a tad more inclined to add a small portion of fish or eggs to my next meal. I am probably going to just treat the 'meat' as a 'side' to the veggies; flipping the standard meal of the main portion being meat and vegetables as the side. 

And this has also gotten me to realize that the vegans who were once 'carnivores' were literally all-out carnivorous; tons of meat, very little vegetables/fruits, loads of hydrogenated oils, sweets/sugar, processed grains… with even more meat. Any transition to real foods and plenty of plants proves to be beneficial. 

 My mind is reeling right now. I'm starting to get a bigger picture of the diet spectrum. 

 

All I can say is that, when I eat a large quantity of grains and/or dairy in my diet, I suffer from GERD pretty bad.  If I stick to a strict paleo diet, I get absolutely no GERD and am pretty happy with my "throughput" if you know what I mean.  So, if it means that I eat meat daily, as long as I'm eating tons of green, orange, red, and yellow fruit and veggies too, then hey, I'll take it.  Nothing is rotting in there--that's a myth.  It's the chemicals we humans use as preservatives in meat that cause cancer, not the meat itself, from what I understand.

While I do not suffer from GERD (knock on wood), I completely know what you're going through- my father has a similar problem, along with heartburn. Was diagnosed with Diabetes six years ago, and still has yet to clean up his act (he's in his fifties and starting to produce a, ahem, beer belly- even though he doesn't drink); taking tons of medications for that, high cholesterol/blood pressure, heartburn, and the reflux. I am trying not to be so critical, as even with health, to each their own. But I hate to see a loved one wreck their health like this. Which is why I am SO GLAD you have found a way of eating and enjoying life that sustains your inner joy and health. MASSIVE respect. 

A quality of veganism I am completely on board with is the treatment of animals (I get it, they die, but no need to torture them, nor is it right to turn them in miniature Frankensteins with added chemicals and hormones). I definitely will stick to wild caught-grassfed-farm-pasture raised varieties when I can. 

Thanks again!

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Indeed... it's a common mistake to assume that if you're going paleo, you're going carnivore.  Really it's more like you're going non-grains.  For me, eating paleo means eating lots and lots of fruit and vegetables, and meat too.  So a typical plate or meal is only 1/4 to 1/3 meat, and the rest is vegetables, with some simple fats added in.  Tons of fiber, really!  I haven't done the math, but .8g/protein per Kg is a good chunk of meat.

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Indeed... it's a common mistake to assume that if you're going paleo, you're going carnivore.  Really it's more like you're going non-grains.  For me, eating paleo means eating lots and lots of fruit and vegetables, and meat too.  So a typical plate or meal is only 1/4 to 1/3 meat, and the rest is vegetables, with some simple fats added in.  Tons of fiber, really!  I haven't done the math, but .8g/protein per Kg is a good chunk of meat.

Spot on! 

A friend recommended the If It Fits Your Macros calculator to me, and my requirements fall somewhere between 70-99 grams of protein, depending on my activity level. And while animal protein does not contain fiber per se, I will admit that sources like fish pack a ton of protein per gram while also providing omega-3's. Flaxseed may give you omega-3s for as little as a few tablespoons, but the body does not convert it the same as it does with the former. It takes a lot of digestive work to do so, making fish a better choice, believe it or not. 

Again, these statements are starting to make more sense, and I'm having revelations the more I chat with my fellow recruits in the Nerd Army. :)

I've been studying nutrition for years, and after experiencing firsthand different eating patterns, I have come to realize that not only is every body different, but each outcome will occur differently depending on that person's current state of health. 

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Yeah flax seeds are tough. Not only are the omega3s kinda incomplete, but the seed needs to be freshly ground finely. Even then the fiber is so crazy strong absorbant, I really doubt the omega3s are fully accessible.

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The Omega 3's are fine, but only in the form of ALA, which is easy to get and very little is converted into DHA and EPA, which is what fish oil is good for supplying. That's not to say ALA isn't good for you, it's just easier to get through diet than DHA and EPA are. 

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Yeah flax seeds are tough. Not only are the omega3s kinda incomplete, but the seed needs to be freshly ground finely. Even then the fiber is so crazy strong absorbant, I really doubt the omega3s are fully accessible.

That's true. For someone with IBS like me, eating more than a tablespoon gives some bloat. If you've seen flax seeds soaked in water, then imagine them in your stomach. Not to say that they are bad, and some people do not get bloated like I do from them, but it is something to consider. 

 

 

The Omega 3's are fine, but only in the form of ALA, which is easy to get and very little is converted into DHA and EPA, which is what fish oil is good for supplying. That's not to say ALA isn't good for you, it's just easier to get through diet than DHA and EPA are. 

Exactly. That is why I would rather go directly to the right source with fish at this rate. Plus, one of the foods I missed during my vegan days was raw sushi. I can only have about half a tablespoon of flax seeds without getting a lot of bloat, but I do acknowledge their nutritional content and how they could benefit some people.

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since noone has mentioned it, I'm going to suggest that yo check out marksdailyapple.com plenty of good info there about everything paleo.

relevant:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-dietary-acidbase-balance-matter/

and the second to last Q:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/d-ribose-bean-sprouts-backyard-rabbits-the-protein-bone-loss-canard-and/

Mark's Daily Apple was also another causation towards my current leanings towards full-paleo conversion. All of the testimonials related some level or degree of symptoms I am currently experiencing. Also, I hate to repeat this, but I am tired of the vegan community insulting to downright discriminating against anyone who eats meat. Not everyone chooses to do so out of gluttony; there is health involved here, and the vegan community in general does not embrace bio-individuality. 

Thanks for these particular links!

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The vegan community is made up of a lot of self righteous people. I may be atypical in that I actually support meat eating, even if I don't do it myself. There's a place in Oregon called Paleo Ranch that donates 10% of purchases to animal causes. Previously they donated strictly to PETA, but I think they branched out.

I support hunting and fishing that isn't done commercially, too.

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Mark's Daily Apple was also another causation towards my current leanings towards full-paleo conversion. All of the testimonials related some level or degree of symptoms I am currently experiencing. Also, I hate to repeat this, but I am tired of the vegan community insulting to downright discriminating against anyone who eats meat. Not everyone chooses to do so out of gluttony; there is health involved here, and the vegan community in general does not embrace bio-individuality. 

Thanks for these particular links!

MDA has quite a few ex-veg(an)s on the forums, and they are mostly pretty supportive.  There have even been a few that went from primal to vegetarian primal with only minor idiocy from the peanut gallery.  There are a number over there that eat meat on a less-than-daily basis as well, or restrict the types of meat they eat.

 

In reality, healthy vegetarianism and primal/paleo are not all that different.  One will tend to have more beans and grains, the other will have more meat.  The overall focus, though, is on the vegetables and fruit (despite the lengthy discussions of bacon).  Eco-conscious vegetarians and paleoists will oppose monoculture crops and promote local seasonal foods.  Animal welfare-focused vegetarians and paleoists both will oppose factory farm techniques.  Health-conscious vegetarians and paleoists will focus on eating lots of fruits and vegetables, as opposed to processed junk (There ain't no meat in a doughnut!).  There are far more commonalities than differences, though you wouldn't know it if you listen to the "true" believers.

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Exactly, in the end, it's really about eating natural foods. Be they meat, fruit or veg, eating what was put here for us to eat and not manipulating the things were shouldn't be eating, so that they are "edible".

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Exactly, in the end, it's really about eating natural foods. Be they meat, fruit or veg, eating what was put here for us to eat and not manipulating the things were shouldn't be eating, so that they are "edible".

While I can see that this discussion is based around "natural" food, I at least quickly want to point out that ANY and EVERY food you consume has been altered in some way over the history of us finding it growing/walking somewhere. There is not a single thing you can eat today that hasn't been changed by humans. So in the end the discussion about "natural" and the oh so dreadful "processed" is one without basis. There are some good general guidelines behind most of the well-known dietary life-styles, but also a lot of dogmatic fanatism and bias.

 

Checking against what we really truely know so far, there seems to be no "one diet to fit them all". The general understanding goes towards the "Eat everything you want to eat. Be aware of the calories. Be aware of what you need to consume of macros and micros a day (approx.) to keep yourself functioning. Do it."

 

Ofc, if you go to the realm of morale, or the realm of professional sports or medical conditions, there will be changes here. I just wanted to advice moderation ;)

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Exactly, in the end, it's really about eating natural foods. Be they meat, fruit or veg, eating what was put here for us to eat and not manipulating the things were shouldn't be eating, so that they are "edible".

That is something both the paleo and vegan advocates can agree upon. :)

 

While I can see that this discussion is based around "natural" food, I at least quickly want to point out that ANY and EVERY food you consume has been altered in some way over the history of us finding it growing/walking somewhere. There is not a single thing you can eat today that hasn't been changed by humans. So in the end the discussion about "natural" and the oh so dreadful "processed" is one without basis. There are some good general guidelines behind most of the well-known dietary life-styles, but also a lot of dogmatic fanatism and bias.

 

Checking against what we really truely know so far, there seems to be no "one diet to fit them all". The general understanding goes towards the "Eat everything you want to eat. Be aware of the calories. Be aware of what you need to consume of macros and micros a day (approx.) to keep yourself functioning. Do it."

 

Ofc, if you go to the realm of morale, or the realm of professional sports or medical conditions, there will be changes here. I just wanted to advice moderation ;)

You are correct. I recall reading somewhere that bananas for example were much larger than they are today, and their seeds were often used as jewelry and adornments. Strawberries were once bitter, practically impalatable, compared to they are today. 

 

And I am not saying the vegan diet is BAD, because as you said, there is no such thing as a perfect diet, no matter how many studies we may conduct on the matter. I have seen vegans who thrive on lifestyle, while also seeing and experiencing for myself that others do best with some animal protein here and there.

 

I have some qualms with moderation, but I do agree that at the end of the day, we need to find what works best for OUR body, to find the right balance that works for ourselves and not someone in our community or even a celebrity. Things like age, sex, exercise level, genetics (to an extent), current state of health, etc, all factor in, and can change over time. 

 

Thanks for your input!

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MDA has quite a few ex-veg(an)s on the forums, and they are mostly pretty supportive.  There have even been a few that went from primal to vegetarian primal with only minor idiocy from the peanut gallery.  There are a number over there that eat meat on a less-than-daily basis as well, or restrict the types of meat they eat.

 

In reality, healthy vegetarianism and primal/paleo are not all that different.  One will tend to have more beans and grains, the other will have more meat.  The overall focus, though, is on the vegetables and fruit (despite the lengthy discussions of bacon).  Eco-conscious vegetarians and paleoists will oppose monoculture crops and promote local seasonal foods.  Animal welfare-focused vegetarians and paleoists both will oppose factory farm techniques.  Health-conscious vegetarians and paleoists will focus on eating lots of fruits and vegetables, as opposed to processed junk (There ain't no meat in a doughnut!).  There are far more commonalities than differences, though you wouldn't know it if you listen to the "true" believers.

Fantastic response. 

 

Whenever a so called expert evangelizes his or her diet, I immediately become cautious. The preaching can act as a double-edged sword towards readers/clients. What happens when the diet in question ceases in effectiveness? When that person falls off the wagon or begins to experience a decline in health? Do we blame ourselves, or the diet? There is a guilt that weaves through, and suddenly we enter the danger zone of belittling ourselves. We should realize that there is nothing wrong with our body and mind. We simply have not found that wonderful 'Goldilocks' solution, that balance of nutrients that works best for our own unique bio-chemistry. 

I respect the integrity behind the vegan movement, but cannot tolerate those who abhor others who have 'fallen off' or 'strayed' from their idea of a 'true path'. That is why I cannot associate myself with it anymore. With paleo, I have seen the bacon-obsessed devotees with their Crossfit fanaticism and competitive nature. These people are just as quick to spit on the faces of their past lives as vegans, and will also disengage from respectfully interacting with anyone who does not eat in the same manner as they do. 

 However, like you said, there are more similarities than differences when you really narrow down the two, and I wish they could set aside their differences and just embrace being healthy and working with the human body and not against it. The selection of amino acids/protein differs, yes, but both agree that foods that were not converted into Frankenstein substances are always the best- more plants, less junk. 

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