Fat Shaming/Fat Acceptance Movement

[SevenofSeven]

I spend Fridays in town, therefore have access to internet that is faster than walk up speed, thus allowing me to peruse youtube and other such sites.

Today I stumbled across a lot of angry people who were getting all bothered about a movement called Fat Acceptance. I investigated a little further and discovered that some rather large feminists types have been getting all up in people's faces about what they perceive as fat shaming and blaming society for their inability to fit into airline seats, cinema seats and such things, instead of taking on any responsibility for their own actions and lifestyle they have pointed the finger at society and healthy people for their issues. They likened Fat Shaming to racism and sexism.

Some of what I saw was following the mantra of Big is Beautiful, Love your Curves etc. which I get, and if people are happy with the way they are nobody has the right to say otherwise.

What I didn't understand was the darker side of this, where some women ( they were predominantly women ), got nasty about people who chose to do something about their weight, they got nasty on people who chose healthy lifestyles ( therefor health shaming ), they blamed everyone else for their position in life and they were all like, if I am fat society needs to adjust to me, I am not going to change myself, society needs to provide for me, bigger chairs in restaurants, I will sue Airlines for not providing seating for me, the ideal of beauty and health is all just a big nasty corporate lie.............They totally want to burn Fit Mom at the stake for her " What's your excuse " post. Yes they are still flogging that horse.

I know I am a little slow at times, I am by no means the sharpest tool in the shed, I don't understand this Fat Acceptance Movement trying to force people to feel like they owe these loud, obnoxious, people anything.

Curves are beautiful I have several, but this body of mine is mine, I did this to it and I am striving to fix it. Should I be made to feel ashamed of trying to be healthier?

Thoughts anyone? I just don't understand the thought process behind it.

[Eleanorsbee]

I kind of figure that life is a giant bell curve of people ..... in the middle, where most people reside, people are normal, average, sane, accepting, etc etc etc.

 

then you get each end of the bell curve, the extremists ..... whether they be religious extremists, feminist extremists, chauvinist extremists, Genius bar staff, terrorists, political extremists ..... they are the nutcase that won't entertain anyone else view and take a good idea or a bad idea to the absolute extreme.

 

if there was a moral way to cull each end of the bell curve, this world would be a lot nicer place .. albeit a bit boring

[Vella]

Should you be ashamed of trying to make your body what you would like it to be?  Hell no.

Should you be ashamed of loving your body just the way it is?  Also hell no.

 

Does a lot of society need to step back and take a look at how it treats overweight people?  Definitely yes.

 

Having been occasionally pudgy, and often unfit, but never overweight, I am occasionally horrified by the stories my visibly overweight friends tell me about how they get treated - I've had a friend who's been verbally abused plus swearing for daring to sit in a train seat that's a tad too small for her, because she's taking up too much space at rush hour.  There is a huge problem of people with psychological trauma because of the way they're treated for being overweight, as far as I know (again, not one of them; plural of anecdote is not data, but I suppose someone with more experience of the issue could confirm of deny this)

I think a lot of the people taking it too far are the backlash of this - they have been ridiculed for what is for some of them most of their lives, and they're fighting back hard because of it.  Is their message wrong?  Probably not.  Extreme is probably a better word for it.  

 

So, I guess that's kind of my stance on the issue. I think the way society treats the issue needs to change.  But I also think there are people who go too far and end up pushing the precise opposite message - bodies that aren't fat aren't OK, or being average or underweight is contributing to the issue, which doesn't make sense to me, but there you go.

[TheOtherScott]

I'm of two minds here.  On the one hand, obesity is rising and the social costs of it are very real and very high.  It'd be irresponsible of us to not do something about it.  On the other, being an asshole to overweight people is obviously not the answer, and it makes perfect sense that the fat acceptance movement is a response to that kind of abuse.

 

Loving yourself and loving your body are great things, but taking care of yourself is part of that.  I guess that's where I land on this.  It's hard for me to see friends blow out their knees from getting out of the shower because they're 400 pounds, and it's hard for me to see friends verbally abused in public.

[Sylvaa]

Soapbox time!

 

Any movement which advocates one [fill in the blank - in this case body type] over another is unacceptable in my book. 

 

If you are overweight and love your body - great! However, dealing with negativity from others has the potential to make anyone defensive. (I feel this is where a lot of the mainstream fat acceptance movement is. It's more reactive than proactive, which is taking away from the positive message and making it more radical than I think most people meant it to be).

 

If you are overweight and want to change your body - great! No one needs snarky comments about your weight - it's counterproductive for the person trying to change.

 

If you are normal weight and love your body - great! Keep it up and be positive and supportive of the rest of the world. 

 

If you are normal weight and want to change your body - great! Be the best you possible - just stay healthy.

 

If you are underweight and love your body - great! See the comments from the overweight and love your body section.

 

If you are underweight and want to change your body - great! Again, see above.

 

See what I did there? No matter what kind of body you have, not everyone is going to like it. Too bad. That doesn't give any one group the right to tear down any other group just because. Even with the same diet / exercise, not everyone is going to have the same body. I wish people would get off the whole body type debate and start focusing on health. Eat real food, be active daily, drink more water and less other stuff, and be the best you possible.

 

/end soapbox

[RoryAverage]

Not directed at any posters in the thread, just a general statement.

 

Just another example of magical thinking to me. Every time I hear about "fat acceptance" I think "Who are you trying to convince? Me, or yourself?"

 

If you wanna see it get crazy, look up fitmom.She got a ton of shit for daring to post this pic: http://time.com/25014/fit-mom-still-wants-you-to-feel-inferior-and-kind-of-lazy/

 

Alot of people seem to be under the impression that tearing down someone else automatically lifts themselves up. Quite sad, IMO

[StillWaters]

I think people may be misinterpreting her message. it seems to me she is addressing women who blame their weight problems on age/having kids. The title of her blog is FitMom, it seems pretty obvious to me that she is catering to the moms of the world and showing them that having kids doesn't mean they have to resign themselves to having a body that makes them feel run down and doesn't allow them to be as active or energetic as they once were.

[Br0din]

I think people may be misinterpreting her message. it seems to me she is addressing women who blame their weight problems on age/having kids. The title of her blog is FitMom, it seems pretty obvious to me that she is catering to the moms of the world and showing them that having kids doesn't mean they have to resign themselves to having a body that makes them feel run down and doesn't allow them to be as active or energetic as they once were.

 

 

Absolutely, but when the foundation of your mental blocks is challenged...  the response in vicious (to say nicely.)  

 

I think that Americans have no idea what is "normal" body size anymore because we are a very food rich country.  I'm 6'3" 220lbs and I would be top .5% of biggest people in South Korea (and south Korea has tall people.)  Hell, "fitmom" would only be average body type in Korea.  

 

/runs for cover

[kaelvan]

I'm getting really annoyed with the people, who decided let's shame the "skinny" people for a change. Just because "fat" shaming was/is acceptable doesn't mean go and do it to "skinny" people for a change. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Zorch]

Should you be ashamed of trying to make your body what you would like it to be?  Hell no.

Should you be ashamed of loving your body just the way it is?  Also hell no.

 

Does a lot of society need to step back and take a look at how it treats overweight people?  Definitely yes.

 

As someone who was technically obese in the past, and who now frequently draws comments for being in really *good* shape, I largely agree - society is unreasonably judgmental in many aspects, and that needs to change:

• Every human being has a right to be treated with dignity, and for their choices to be respected so long as they're not hurting anyone else.
• Every human being has a right to decide how important fitness is in their own case.  For some people, career/family/etc. may take a higher priority than fitness and that's okay, if that's their choice.  There are 24 hours in a day, and each of us gets to choose how we should utilize that time.
• A minority of the population has medical conditions that influence their weight in one way or another, and without knowing what each person is dealing with, it's not fair to cast judgement upon individuals
• Likewise, certain individuals have a genetic predisposition toward being a bit leaner or a bit fatter, or being slightly more or less muscular
• Many people try, but do not succeed in their fitness journeys.  These individuals deserve support and respect, rather than derision.  Often "failure" is not the result of lack of effort, but the result of misinformation/following a bad plan that someone else drew up.
• All other things being equal, it's far healthier to view oneself positively than negatively.  It's unfortunate that society often fails to recognize this.
• Per above comments, characterization of overweight people as lazy, or characterization of highly athletic people as dumb and shallow are both really unfair, and usually quite inaccurate

 

That said, I also believe that we should be honest:

• There's a difference between making a choice and owning it, and making excuses.  The number of people that have thyroid disorders is significantly less than the number of people that claim they have "slow metabolism," or are "hard gainers".  But again, without knowing someone's medical history, it's not fair to cast judgment on individuals, as you don't know which category they fall into.
• While aesthetics and health are two very different things(in particular because the former is FAR more subjective), at some threshold weight issues become a legitimate health issue.  While BMI is an imperfect metric, it's also true that excessively high body fat percentages(and for that matter, excessively low ones as well) are incredibly unhealthy over the long run.
• Society has changed - both in terms of what we do physically, and what we do nutritionally.  The shifts in our body composition on a societal level are most definitely the result of lifestyle changes.  Again, hard to make an argument one way or another regarding the source of any individual's struggle, but it's quite certain that our country's BMR didn't magically slow down over the past several decades.
• Studies have repeatedly shown that thermodynamics(calories in/out) works, and that often, individuals who have difficulty losing weight often do a poor job of judging how much they are actually consuming.  No one is exempt from the laws of thermodynamics, and while people may have different basal metabolic rates, anyone that claims they eat 1500 calories per day while working out 9 hours a week with any significant intensity, and are maintaining a body weight of 300 pounds (see: https://www.bulletproofexec.com/), is either significantly miscounting or outright lying. Science works.  You can't cheat thermodynamics.  That's not to say that everyone has the same metabolic rate, but ultimately losing or gaining weight comes down to creating a caloric deficit or surplus, and doing so in a manner that is sustainable.

 

In other words, we should treat our fellow humans with empathy and kindness.  However we should also be cognizant of reality, and if people are struggling due to misinformation, we should be kind enough to help them through that, too.  Everyone should treat each other with dignity, and no one should ever be so afraid of being shamed that they have to lie about their situation.

[kaelvan]

Sadly, thyroid problems run in my family (and my meds' side effects are know to cause them) so I have to make sure I keep up exercise for the rest of my life.

[StillWaters]

I'm getting really annoyed with the people, who decided let's shame the "skinny" people for a change. Just because "fat" shaming was/is acceptable doesn't mean go and do it to "skinny" people for a change. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Not to mention that skinny shaming used to be the norm a few decades ago. It was common to see ads in women's magazines for products that either help put on weight or create the illusion of the "curves of a real woman" Sound familiar? Honestly, I just ignore the extremists and continue with my own business. Those people think they are being revolutionary when in fact they are simply repeating history.

[Dleffe]

It all boils down to 1 simpel human flaw. You see it in your own surroundings when you try to live healthier. You get healthy and al of a sudden other people around you get presented with the fact that they are letting their life go to shit with unhealthy choices.

 

The rare few will shrug and keep doing what they do and be happy with their choice and accept yours.

The second minority will try to follow your example either because you motivate them or they want to support you.

The majority however will start feeling bad about their own crap lifestyle, instead of trying to get healthier they'll do the easy thing and do their best to drag you down to their own lvl so they don't have to fell guilty about their crappy choices.

 

To be honest as a race we are a truly horrifying plague. Yes I'm aware I'm a horribly cynical person, but am I wrong?

[baking_jeans]

I don't have 3 kids...

 

Seriously, the woman is awesomely insane (I mean, how insane is this level of self motivation and control? She's a rock star!).

 

Fat Shaming. It is bad, but it is normal. We are society after all - group that have standards that are core to the groups' existance, so whoever doesn't meet the standards is being "expelled" from the group. Since we are civil and "wise" the process doesn't look like in groups of other animals, but still, it is there.

[MogiShade]

Don't ever mistake the shit you find on the internet as an accurate reflection of society. 

[Miw_Sher]

I have very mixed feelings towards the Fat Acceptance movement. However, it may be because I have serious trouble understanding it. As far as I understand, there is also a more moderate aspect of it which is "Health at Every Size," which is simply motivating people to take care of their body and love themselves regardless of their weight, and engage in physical activities to keep themselves fit even if they are do not look like supermodels. However, even that one brings with it a bunch of controversy since one side debates that "Health at every Size" simply is not possible at extremes (on either end) while another insists that that isn't true and that you cannot judge a person's health by their appearance.  It is all very confusing to me, and the fact that the internet seems to polarise everything so I am not sure what sources I can trust and what information corresponds to the truth.

 

Besides, even though I don't know if this is directly related, but recently I actually got called out for my weight loss and my newlyfound interest in fitness – apparently I am letting myself be pressured by society and if I really was a strong woman, I would just have ignored all those social standards. The fact that there is a movement advocating this (whether they be extremists or not) does not entirely sit well with me and seems a dangerous thing. (Mostly for individuals, since I doubt the movement is bit enough to really have an impact on society as a whole.)

Anyhow, I am curious to see how this discussion will evolve. Maybe someone will jump in and enlighten me.

[Vella]

Miw_Sher - good point about the Health at Every Size thing.  Most of the people I know who are overweight do some exercise.  Does it make them "healthy"?  Arguable, but they're happy with what their bodies can do, so all good to them.  I'm deeply suspicious of the idea that you can link health issues to being overweight on a one-to-one basis, but I'm also aware that there are plenty of complications which come with being overweight (joint problems, for the most basic).

 

Re: the photo, I think it largely depends on where you're coming from viewing it.

Are you someone who always tells themselves to go to the gym and eat better, but find excuses ... and know you find excuses?  The message may be more likely to come across as "We both know those excuses aren't really as important as you think - you should ignore them and do what you always wanted to do".

Are you someone who has been told for years that your body type is because you are lazy or gluttonous, and that you're a drain on the healthcare system and are obviously just selfish with poor self-control?  Well, then the message is far more likely to say "It doesn't matter what else is going on in your life, you are obviously inadequate for not doing this specific thing that makes you a worthwhile person to society", and yeah, I can see why people get mad about that.

I don't think she meant it like that, and I don't think she should be publicly ridiculed and lambasted for it.  But I can see why some people might see that as an attack on people like them.

[StillWaters]

I have very mixed feelings towards the Fat Acceptance movement. However, it may be because I have serious trouble understanding it. As far as I understand, there is also a more moderate aspect of it which is "Health at Every Size," which is simply motivating people to take care of their body and love themselves regardless of their weight, and engage in physical activities to keep themselves fit even if they are do not look like supermodels. However, even that one brings with it a bunch of controversy since one side debates that "Health at every Size" simply is not possible at extremes (on either end) while another insists that that isn't true and that you cannot judge a person's health by their appearance.  It is all very confusing to me, and the fact that the internet seems to polarise everything so I am not sure what sources I can trust and what information corresponds to the truth.

 

Besides, even though I don't know if this is directly related, but recently I actually got called out for my weight loss and my newlyfound interest in fitness – apparently I am letting myself be pressured by society and if I really was a strong woman, I would just have ignored all those social standards. The fact that there is a movement advocating this (whether they be extremists or not) does not entirely sit well with me and seems a dangerous thing. (Mostly for individuals, since I doubt the movement is bit enough to really have an impact on society as a whole.)

Anyhow, I am curious to see how this discussion will evolve. Maybe someone will jump in and enlighten me.

 

Take note of what these people are actually doing. They are telling you a woman who is actually strong ignores social pressure, while simultaneously pressuring you into not losing weight or developing an interest in fitness, something you implied brings joy and value to your life. If you give up fitness and ignore your weight, you would then be caving into social pressure from people telling you not to cave into social pressure.

 

Tip: A truly strong woman does things for the purpose of attaining peace and fulfillment, not pleasing other people, and yes, that includes the self-proclaimed "rebels" and "non-conformists"   

[Zorch]

Miw_Sher - good point about the Health at Every Size thing.  Most of the people I know who are overweight do some exercise.  Does it make them "healthy"?  Arguable, but they're happy with what their bodies can do, so all good to them.  I'm deeply suspicious of the idea that you can link health issues to being overweight on a one-to-one basis, but I'm also aware that there are plenty of complications which come with being overweight (joint problems, for the most basic).

 

 

I think the Health at Every Size movement can be a positive thing, as long as the message stays true to the movement's name - i.e. focusing on encouraging folks to do healthy things.  I think the general message of having one's #1 priority being doing the right things(good nutrition, being active, etc.) is a sound one, as is the focus on emotional/psychological wellness being just as important as physical.  I also think on a societal level, there is a lot to be said for making sure fitness activities are welcoming to people regardless of their shape/size, because if we create an environment where people are skipping out on an opportunity to be physically active because they're afraid of being "fat-shamed", we've failed as a society.

 

The only caveat I would add is that the message from this movement shouldn't really be that all weights are equally healthy, but rather one of self-love, and all that that implies.  I think StillWaters really nailed it in the post above mine: It's really about doing things that your life better("better" defined on an individual basis); any activity that brings someone fulfillment and helps lay a foundation for happiness over the long term should be considered a worthy activity.  Everyone should support someone who is trying to do that for themselves.

[SevenofSeven]

Is it possible to encourage the more radical people in the movement to better their health?

I mean from what I saw there were those who were quite happy to basically eat themselves to death, because "you can't tell me what to do" if their goal is. To remain obese, fair enough, but what about looking at the health implications of this. Why would you thumb your nose at commonsense because you are to obtuse to see that you would be killing yourself. This was the bit that really made it hard for me to understand their logic.

Is food addiction something we need to address?

[Evermist]

The way I see it, the crux of the matter is that (as mentioned above) change in a person should be a result of an innate desire to change, and external social expectations and judgment/ostracisation more often than not places unnecessary pressure on individuals. Relevant to the discussion, it probably also means fat people shouldn't be treated as inferior members of society simply for being fat.

 

It's quite difficult to talk about all groups of people under one common umbrella of 'fat' - I feel that doing so is a disservice to many, and so it might be best to split them up.

 

On the definition of 'fat' and 'not fat':

One thing I believe the 'Health at all Sizes' movement tries to do is to encourage individuals to stop looking to only one type of supposedly ideal body, and to learn to accept it. Granted, this is targeted at mostly average individuals who fall mostly within the healthy range of the weight spectrum, but it is exactly because its target audience is mostly of healthy weight that the message is meaningful. To hijack the message and twist it into 'there is no such thing as an unhealthy weight' is wrong and rather pointless. There's also the problem of people who are simply of slightly larger build than normal. I'm not sure what it's like in America, but here in Asia where I live, the term 'fat' is used to describe even girls who don't fit normal Asian sizes. (The average Asian woman, by the way, really is smaller than the average Caucasian.) That's where there is a problem - when 'fat' is thrown around, confusion occurs.

 

On people who are obese and want to do something about it:

Excellent. Offer support, cheer them on, be there for them. Other than that, carry on.

 

On the people who choose not to do anything about their obesity and indulge in what most would consider an unhealthy lifestyle:

I personally am of the opinion that an individual's choice to ignore obesity's detriments something I have no business in. I can feel sad, of course, that a fellow person doesn't value health as much as I feel he/she should; I can feel slightly indignant, of course, that such choices directly harm the person and perhaps bring about minor (or not-so-minor) inconveniences for everyone else; I can feel distanced, of course, from a person I believe is the opposite of what little sense and values I have. What I cannot do is to manifest such emotions into concrete action and directly attack such individuals' place in society. They may be an irritation, yes, but the 'harm' they bring to the society in general most likely doesn't warrant their reduction to 'second-class citizens', explicitly or implicitly in societal attitudes.

 

It's for the reason above that I don't quite agree with Fat Acceptance. I don't agree that fat people should be treated like they are worth less or be subject to social punishment, but then again I don't believe that anyone should be subject to social punishment for arbitrary reasons other than direct attack and societal harm (i.e. crime, damage to social fabric, etc), so it was a moot point anyway. I don't agree with their choices, but the only thing I can do about Fat Acceptance - and fat people in general, particularly if they choose to lead unhealthy lifestyles -  is disagree. Anything else on my part would be unfair to them as people.

 

---

 

tl;dr:

 

Learning to love yourself, yes.

Fat = dangerous, yes.

Fat ≠ deserving of societal rejection and punishment.

Fat Acceptance = sadly myopic in terms of health and individual action, but they have a bit of a point. Just a bit.

[Miw_Sher]

Take note of what these people are actually doing. They are telling you a woman who is actually strong ignores social pressure, while simultaneously pressuring you into not losing weight or developing an interest in fitness, something you implied brings joy and value to your life. If you give up fitness and ignore your weight, you would then be caving into social pressure from people telling you not to cave into social pressure.

 

Tip: A truly strong woman does things for the purpose of attaining peace and fulfillment, not pleasing other people, and yes, that includes the self-proclaimed "rebels" and "non-conformists"   

Oh, I am well aware of that and did not really pay them much attention. It was just really surprising and a bit annoying even because one of them, at least, is the same person who normally always perks up at successful weight loss stories and who later on went to complain that she didn't fit in some of my clothes that I was giving away.

 

[Vella]

I think the Health at Every Size movement can be a positive thing, as long as the message stays true to the movement's name - i.e. focusing on encouraging folks to do healthy things.  I think the general message of having one's #1 priority being doing the right things(good nutrition, being active, etc.) is a sound one, as is the focus on emotional/psychological wellness being just as important as physical.  I also think on a societal level, there is a lot to be said for making sure fitness activities are welcoming to people regardless of their shape/size, because if we create an environment where people are skipping out on an opportunity to be physically active because they're afraid of being "fat-shamed", we've failed as a society.

 

The only caveat I would add is that the message from this movement shouldn't really be that all weights are equally healthy, but rather one of self-love, and all that that implies.  I think StillWaters really nailed it in the post above mine: It's really about doing things that your life better("better" defined on an individual basis); any activity that brings someone fulfillment and helps lay a foundation for happiness over the long term should be considered a worthy activity.  Everyone should support someone who is trying to do that for themselves.

 

This!!  Health at Every Size means that you can be healthy and make good choices regardless of your size, and that those choices might not lead to significant weight loss and that's fine.

It doesn't mean every size is automatically healthy.

 

It just also means that if you want to encourage health, shaming people doesn't really work.

[Dleffe]

Health at any size is possible. In my old mma gym there was a guy 1.80m tall and a little over 100kg. He looked pretty fat (he did not lift weights, the weight was not muscle) but when we sparred he outpaced almost everyone in the damn gym, same with running or any agility training. On the other end of the spectrum, I had a friend at the gym before I moved. She ate like a horse (wholegrain bread, fruit, nuts,... mainly healthy things), trained 4-5 times a week and she still looked like a broomstick. A broomstick with a pretty face and an awsome personality but still a broomstick (people sometimes outright and rudely asked her if she was annorexic).

 

2 examples of damn healthy people that fell into extremes *shrug*

[Miw_Sher]

Health at any size is possible. In my old mma gym there was a guy 1.80m tall and a little over 100kg. He looked pretty fat (he did not lift weights, the weight was not muscle) but when we sparred he outpaced almost everyone in the damn gym, same with running or any agility training. On the other end of the spectrum, I had a friend at the gym before I moved. She ate like a horse (wholegrain bread, fruit, nuts,... mainly healthy things), trained 4-5 times a week and she still looked like a broomstick. A broomstick with a pretty face and an awsome personality but still a broomstick (people sometimes outright and rudely asked her if she was annorexic).

 

2 examples of damn healthy people that fell into extremes *shrug*

I wouldn't call someone a little over 100kgs for 1.80 an extreme, though. I don't think that is even obese or if it is, just barely.