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Oramac

Thoughts - Firearms in Martial Arts

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Before we begin: Yes, I know this is probably a very controversial topic.  I came upon this site, and decided to get more opinions than my own. 

 

 

I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts on how firearms apply to martial arts, both offensively and defensively, and the mindset behind their application (or lack thereof, depending on your opinion). 

 

 

Thank you! 

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OK, typed a long reply to this, then the power tripped and I lost it all! So let's try again.

 

I think that almost all martial arts involve some weapons training in those weapons of their day and age; knives, sword, spear, staff etc. Martial arts recognised the need for weapons, and the advantage that lay both in being armed and in recognising the capacity of the weapons your enemy may be carrying. And I fairly certain if the Shaolin had had access to pistols there'd be a "Snake Pistol Whips Tiger" Form :P

 

In this way the incorporation of firearms into modern martial arts and self defence makes sense. We are training with the weapons of our time. The weapons our attackers may be carrying, or that we may possess as part of our own self defence readiness.

 

When we drill for self defence we may prepare for knives, or improvised weapons, why not guns? Especially given their prevalence in some places. If we are going to prepare ourselves to face an armed attack both technically and psychologically then there is a need to face all likely weapons.

 

From an offensive standpoint you also need to know how to use the weapon in your possession. And as the technical requirement increases so does the training time. A modern firearm is a fair way beyond "Stick the other dude with the pointy end". So the training requirement increases. There's also a psychological aspect here as with all weapons training. If you're going to draw a weapon, and use it, you need to train for that because it turns out most people can't.

 

So I'd say that the use of firearms in martial arts is just an evolution of weapons already included. And in a modern world that has them, a necessary addition to training.

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I see them as a viable, but last line of defense. My only issue, is that I worry that some might become lax in training, knowing they had a firearm to rely on.

I'd like to see it incorporated into other arts, though. Maybe introduce it at more advanced levels of training, like many arts do, with weapons training.

I can see it worked into something, like, jab, push kick, draw, even.

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It's pretty much what Infantry training was [supposed to be]. (Not Gun Katas, by the way.) Hours of gun drills, individual rifleman drills, and room clearing were usually on the menu for sergeant's time. A lot of people, including the Joes, watch a lot of action movies and all they think about is the point-shoot aspect of it, but in action you see that their biggest issue a lot of the time is that they take too long to reload (probably because Val Kilmer didn't do it much in Heat.) Changing magazines becomes a lot more complicated when you have to sprint to cover, return constant fire, and watch where your teammates are, all while wearing thick gloves because you're in 2 feet of snow. And with your team leader yelling at you. I used to spend hours with my M4 pointed at a spot on the wall, changing magazines from different positions. That I guess is the equivalent of drilling a downward strike in Kendo thousands of times properly until it becomes second-nature. My squad also did a lot of target acquisition drills, ready-up drills, and dime washer drills. When I was part of a gun team we practiced belt changes so we could do it blindfolded with thick-assed gloves, and tripod setups from a sprint (usually via power slide).

 

That's why there are firearms courses available all around.

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Estrix said it better than I could, but I agree.  Small arms is a extension of yourself as knife, sword, hammer or any other tool in your kit.

 

another example of martial arts with gun play is John Wick.  

john_wick3.gif?w=350&h=200&crop=1

 

if you watch closely, in most scenes, he takes the time to aim his shot while maintaining situational awareness of others around him. 

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Thanks everyone!  Also, thanks for keeping it civil.  I half expected to get flamed in this thread.  

 

I tend to agree with everyone's thoughts to one degree or another.  Naturally, training is paramount.  And I'm glad situational awareness was mentioned too.  That's something that I believe is not taught nearly enough, in any school.  

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guns have inevitably become a part of modern martial arts training. for legal reasons europeans hardly ever practise using the gun for self defense. which makes sense as i think it's bit overreacting to protect yourself with a magnum...

but we train surviving against a gunman. i'd love to get some training in firearms but around here it's quite hard for legal reasons. problem legally with protecting yourself with a gun is the fact that if you are the first who opens fire, you are probably assaulter. if you aren't, the other guy is shitty shooter or you are dead.

this is just my opinion and also the consensus of few rbsd teachers. but it is very situation dependent. i'd rather carry a knife myself for various reasons.

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Martial means military or having to do with war. Military "CQC" is as true a martial art as they get. I no longer see myself in a situation where I will be using a "long gun" or clear a room with a team. I practice only defensive pistol these days. I also find myself unarmed about 90 percent of the time, which is why I started focusing more on unarmed conflict.

Self defense is a legal situation justifying the use of force that may otherwise be criminal, not a martial art. If your training firearms for a self defense scenario, pulling the trigger and hitting the target is a very small part of what you need to train.

Most people train for firearms like taibo trains for a kickboxing. Fun, but hardly realistic

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I was typing a long diatribe, then I found this. This guy pretty much says it all. For those who have not worked in the professional use of force field...

1. First do no harm. Most firearms owners through history have used their firearms with no serious incidents... But far more people have done something stupid with a gun than have done something heroic with a gun. And most of that stupidity happened before any kind of conflict...Don't be that idiot.

2. Good Training Equipment

4. Example of a good training pistol

5. Good Knife Training Equipment

Lastly, "realistic" training is even harder with firearms than with fists. Turning training into a sport takes away from the training value and unopposed training takes away from the training value.

I think the two best *martial hobbies* for firearms are MILSIM airsoft and practical shooting. But both of these activities often focus so much on competition that they take away from a training experience. (like sport BJJ vs combative BJJ). But they both still have value. You can find people in these hobbies that want to train realistically.

One place that does airsoft right is Miami Airsoft.

http://miamiairsoft.com/

Another place to find people to train with is USPSA. Most IPSC/IDPA/USPSA members seem to me to be responsible gun owners. While USPSA competitions are not perfectly realistic training events, there are many members who are as interested in training for realism as for competitions. I try to stay away from the race guns and stick with the production class. USPSA is probably the best "DOJO" for beginners. You will not be allowed to be unsafe.

http://www.uspsa.org/

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another example of martial arts with gun play is John Wick.  

john_wick3.gif?w=350&h=200&crop=1

John Wick: Probably one of best example of real moves and techniques wrapped up in a completely unrealistic way I have ever seen. Up there with Haywire (Haywire uses Israeli based CQC vice John Wick's US/UK based CQC, I didn't realize how much of a difference there was until I saw the Haywire)

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I have not opinion on this technique, and if your not law enforcement I wouldn't recommend covering the top of your pistol with your hand on a range. I would only practice this with an airsoft.

I have used a post/frame/hook for weapons retention in training. I lasted at least 10 seconds against all opponents going for the gun. BUT As soon as the attacker gave up going for the gun and started striking, I had to give up the post/frame/hook and either back out and engage or move in for a clinch, I took a shot or two to the face every time. But what the Gracie's are recommending is interesting.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stBfi_iru5M#t=308

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Thanks for the vids Wyrmmaster!  The only one I can see at work is that last one about firing while holding the barrel.  I'll have to set a reminder for myself to watch the others when I get home. 

 

As for firing while holding the barrel, that's an interesting technique.  Not sure I'd want to do it often, if at all, but I suppose when you need to do it, it's good to know.  

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Thanks for the vids Wyrmmaster!  The only one I can see at work is that last one about firing while holding the barrel.  I'll have to set a reminder for myself to watch the others when I get home. 

 

As for firing while holding the barrel, that's an interesting technique.  Not sure I'd want to do it often, if at all, but I suppose when you need to do it, it's good to know.

I have a lot of respect for the Gracies, and some of the techniques I have questioned in the past turned out to be good once you got the hang of them. There are a lot of ways that holding the slide could go wrong in a fight (I understand in the real thing something has already gone terribly wrong). But I also see a lot of ways that could go wrong in practice (not the least of which is shooting your own hand). I personally will never try that with a real firearm. It seems like one of those "hold the alligator's mouth closed because they are weak at opening their mouth" things that I'm just not going to practice with the real thing.

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