programming accessory work

[Bullroarer Took]

I'm sure the answers are varied, but how do most folks handle accessory work?  Do you play it completely by ear?   calculate and program it in detail?

 

So doing SL5x5, I had really no choice in anything.  Now I have some flexibility with 5/3/1 on my accessory lifts.  The program just calls for abs and lats. I do abs on a separate day and do extra chest work since SL lacked enough upper body work.

 

So I am just about finished the first cycle and calculated my next month.  I had originally just written in lats and some times I did low cable rows, pulldowns, dumbell or barbell rows... just based on what was free or how I felt.  Do I need to be programming it to make sure I am progressing?  Do I need to pick a single lat exercise?

 

 

What I have tenetaively done is written on as generic Lat (Probably low cable rows with occasional DB or BB work) and one as generic Chest (typically DB presses with occaional DB chest fly).  The other I have a sets of pull ups (5x4... 4 in a row is all I can do unweighted atm) and one dips (5x5... though I can do 7 in a row low and slow.).  These are both movements I would like to improve upon.  So would this be a reasonable set up???

 

 

Sorry for all the programming questions lately.  after SL it's odd making decisions.

[El Exorcisto]

You're going to have to figure out what works for you. I know that good mornings and high box squats drive my deadlift, so they make up my supplemental work for lower body. I think dips and incline bench drive my strict pressing and bench so they make up my upper body supplemental work. I like roll-outs and ball-ups on rings so they're my go-to accessory for abs. I like doing chin-ups, and Kroc rows should theoretically have carry over to damn near everything from bench stability to deadlift lockout, so those are my lat accessories. I do EZ-bar curls but am dropping straight bar curls since they seem to be bothering my elbow.

 

Don't forget curls. They're important and fast. The biceps are essentially the upper body hamstring and no one ever comes out against direct hamstring work for some reason. The biceps play a pretty big role in both shoulder and elbow stability.

 

After a couple years under the bar I've found these things to either have varying degrees of carry over to the lifts I care about or they help keep me from getting hurt. Pick a movement and run it for a few months. It takes time to be able to make an informed decision on what is worth doing and what should be left on the "sounded good" pile.

 

Make yourself a PB&J, pour yourself a glass of milk, and sit down to read this.

[Bullroarer Took]

Gonna read that tomorrow.

 

I do a little curl work but it's not written in... it's either after a run at the gym or at home with my one 20# DB.  Still, I am small enugh that a few sets of 15 and I do feel something.  I had thought that I would mix more curl work in in the fall and winter when I come out of cutting and Bro-din willing a bulk to actually add some mass to my skinny arms.  I guess I was thinking in my strength work right now curls wouldn't have much  purpose to be in my main programming and I am trying not to put too much stuff in.

[Furius]

With 5/3/1, I used to try out a lot of different ways to put in accessory work. My favorite was to do the main exercise of the day like it's written in the program, but also do an antagonistic exercise the same way, just a bit lighter. For example, bench press as the main exercise and some kind of a horizontal row as the primary assistance exercise. I usually paired bench with barbell rows, stiff-legged deadlifts with squats, front squats with deadlifts and chin-ups or pulldowns with the overhead press.

 

I also enjoyed Beyond 5/3/1 a lot that had you do two primary movements a day thrice a week and still had some accessory exercises. T-Nation has a good article on the program written by Wendler himself: https://www.t-nation.com/workouts/beyond-531-program-1-1

[Bullroarer Took]

 

 

Make yourself a PB&J, pour yourself a glass of milk, and sit down to read this.

 

That took me more than a sandwich to get through.  AT this point I really don't know what my weak points are.. or maybe they are all weak points.   Right now I am just gonna look at it every cycle and see if there's an area that needs work.  I know that I would like my OHP and bench to come up more than I am worried about my squats and deads.

[Bullroarer Took]

What accessory work best helps getting out of the hole on a heavy squat?  Lower weight that allows me to get ultra low?  Don't get me wrong. I'm getting below parallel, but on a lighter weight I can go until the bar is a half inch off the half rack.  Or maybe paused squats?

 

Right now my accessory work is probably going to be more focused on upper body.  But I can identify that on my squat getting out of the hole is the part that lags.

[TurtIe]

What accessory work best helps getting out of the hole on a heavy squat?  Lower weight that allows me to get ultra low?  Don't get me wrong. I'm getting below parallel, but on a lighter weight I can go until the bar is a half inch off the half rack.  Or maybe paused squats?

 

Right now my accessory work is probably going to be more focused on upper body.  But I can identify that on my squat getting out of the hole is the part that lags.

The best exercises I have found for specific sticking points are isometrics.

Basically, set a locked bar into place at the height of your squat depth, then get under it and push as hard as you absolutely can (it won't move, because it's locked into place) for a maximum contraction of 5 seconds, then take a break and repeat four or five times. The beauty of these is that they hit a specific range of motion so it's perfect for sticking points and they're not super taxing on your body so they aren't going to kill the rest of your workout.

[Bullroarer Took]

 

This is what I squat in.  No way to lock in place.  I could put an empty bar against the bottom peg I suppose.

[TurtIe]

I could put an empty bar against the bottom peg I suppose.

 

That's all I do- although my squat racks pegs have little edges that hold the bar in the place really well. Other options are using a smith machine that locks in place (they've gotta be useful for something right?) or loading up a bar with enough weight that you couldn't move it if you tried (though I wouldn't recommend this for insurance reasons).

Try jamming it against the bottom peg, I can't see why it wouldn't work as long as your applying force up and forward into the rack.

[Bullroarer Took]

When I looked at mine today it has angle pegs on the bottom. I didn't even think of the Smith.  That would work perfect.  I guess I forget about the smith except when I need a plate.  

[TurtIe]

Probably a good thing

[jdanger]

Don't forget the pause squat. Probably the single best variation for strength out of the hole.

[Furius]

Don't forget the pause squat. Probably the single best variation for strength out of the hole.

Pause squat, pin squat, box squat below legal depth. If a box is not available, one can squat on a dumbbell of a suitable height or pile some plates.

[jdanger]

Yeah, pin squats are also good but I consider them a progression from pause squats with a different stimulus and a bit higher training potential. Thus I tend to only put them in after a lifter has gotten to know regular pause squats for a while. Which is generally enough to shore up the weakness out of the hole for dynamic lifters that properly utilize the stretch reflex at regular speed. Pause and pin work at the sticking points further up the chain can then be considered too.

 

I don't use box squats but they have value for certain types of squats if done properly.

[wildross]

I think there are basically 2 ways to determine accessory work

 

1) Almost getting hurt.  You try a heavy bench and almost lose it forwards.  Ok, what muscles do I need to keep that from happening?  What can I do to strengthen those muscles?  

 

2) Getting stuck.  Say I can't lock out a deadlift.  Same questions.

 

For both types of work, I always put rep volume before pounds.  By definition, this set of muscles is weak relative to the major muscle groups they are helping.  So check the ego, and grab the 5# dumbbells or the empty bar, or the lightweight band or whatever.  Also working in front of a mirror helps you see which muscles are or are not flexing.  For instance, standing in front of a mirror shirtless or in a tank top, extending your arms and rotating your hands will show you lots of little guys that may need some attention.

 

Once I figure something out that works, it either becomes part of my warmup or supersets (say rotations on the cable machine for shoulder work in between squat sets), or may get it's own spot if the weights are big (front squats for deadlifts).

 

Because of this, I agree with El_e that accessory work tends to be very personal and specific.  

 

(I'll defer to jdanger on any of that)

[Bullroarer Took]

Been running this a bit and do find that I have to be careful with my volume squats or it's easy to be sore for days.  I feel that the volume squats has got me going lower and probably improved my squat form.  The fact that I am struggling a bit with heavy weight on squats could be from not doing it 3x/week, but I feel it's more that I used to barely break parallel and am trying to get lower since I do that on volume.

 

 

 

 

So I am hitting my groove with this routine... so it's time to think about changing it.  

 

All jokes aside I plan to run this through about the end of November basically off what feedback from this thread that looks like this: (5/3/1 lift first in bold)

 

Bench-5x10 OHP- 5x10 Lats- 1-2 mile run

Squat- DL 5x10- 5x10 chestwork- 1-2 mile run

OHP- bench 5x10,  4x4 pullups- 1-2 mile run

Deads 5x10 squat- 5x5 dips- 1-2 mile run

 

My chestwork is typically DB presses with occasional flys, lats is often cable pulldown or low row, but some DB row.  I try to get another 3 and 5 mile run in on my rest days

 

 

SInce I want to try to put on some upper body mass, I thought my accessory work while on a surplus for 3 mos should stimulate that

 

Bench-5x10 OHP- 5x10 Low row - 3x8 curls

Squat- DB press 5x10- 5x10 DB row - 3x8 curl

OHP- bench 5x10,  4x4 pullups- 3x8 lateral raises

Deads- 5x5 dips- 5x10 chest flys- 3x8 curls

 

This winter would probably only include the 5 mile trail run to keep up some basic endurance conditioning. I would still run my main lifts the same.  My DL and squat may not increase as steadily since I will be losing some volume.  But I really want to grow upper body some this winter. 

[Sam Ashen]

Don't forget curls. They're important and fast. The biceps are essentially the upper body hamstring and no one ever comes out against direct hamstring work for some reason. The biceps play a pretty big role in both shoulder and elbow stability.

 

This is exactly what happened to me.  I got bit by the StrongLifts Bug a few years ago and that was all I did.  I was convinced all I needed to do were Squats, Bench Press, Rows, Overhead Presses, and Deadlifts.  And Pull-ups because a guy on the internet said I'm making a big mistake if I don't do Pull-ups.

 

The big attraction was simplicity.  I named 6 exercises.  4 per workout.  Just need some luck securing a Squat Rack and maybe a Bench.  None of this running around from exercise to exercise.  One hour.  Done!

 

I got snotty about not needing to do curls anymore.  Because Deadlifts are better.  Because Squats are better.  Because Pull-ups are better.

 

Now I see them as an accessory to bench press due to the mentioned shoulder stability.

 

Theory:  SL and SS did not include Curls because it was implicit they would be included.  Because.  Curls.

[Bullroarer Took]

 

Theory:  SL and SS did not include Curls because it was implicit they would be included.  Because.  Curls.

 

One of the big selling points of at least SL is "all you need is BB, rack and bench"  I would argue that BB row is used over DB for the same reason there is no curls.  No dumbells.  Did you find this old gem looking for Rip bashings? 

[Sam Ashen]

That was not really my motive. It looks like I have been badly misunderstood. I will get back to it later, after everybody has eaten their popcorn.

Sent from my LG-D800 using Tapatalk

[Bullroarer Took]

Im just bustin balls Sam.

[TurtIe]

Popcorn is amazing.

[Jord]

This whole conversation was interesting and informative as someone pondering similar thoughts. A++, 10/10, would read again.

[Waldo]

The other I have a sets of pull ups (5x4... 4 in a row is all I can do unweighted atm) and one dips (5x5... though I can do 7 in a row low and slow.).  These are both movements I would like to improve upon.

The concept of shoulder balance is very important for BW work, to keep pushing and pulling in relative balance to avoid shoulder issues.

A quick and dirty check is that chins and dips should be almost perfectly balanced 1:1, weighted or unweighted.

This should absolutely carry over to weighted work, if that balance gets out of whack, the weaker chain is the one that needs extra accessory focus.