Men ONLY please...

[Conk]

Way to go on the job! What do they have you doing there?

The Temple actually runs more like a church than it does like a donation center. Though it has both, they focus more on going out into the urban and community ministry than having them come to them. I personally am going to help with the youth program, and the head there was interested in having me help counsel impoverished families get Diplomas/GEDs/Jobs/etc. Its like being a financial and spiritual adviser at the same time, I believe.

[Conk]

I think that when you get right down to it, there is really no such thing as altruism. If you take the meaning as simply kindness or helping others, sure it exists. But if you want to define it as "selfless concern for the welfare of others," I argue that deep down all altruistic acts are inherently selfish. People do it because they feel a sense of obligation for kindness shown them in the past, hope of a reward in the future (re-payment, or for the religious, a better seat in heaven), or perhaps just the emotional reward we get when we help someone. All of these ideas/feelings exist because it's hardwired into our brains through evolution. It was an advantage to survival when our ancestors helped each other out, as the community/group grew stronger over time when individuals helped the other members. We help others to trigger some switch in our brains that makes us feel better, just like some people get a positive feeling when the eat junk food, beat a video game, sink a shot in basketball, or whatever. It's all brain chemicals and we like those chemicals. You notice that some people are really heavily involved in charity; I think they do it because they're in a way addicted to those chemicals. Take away those chemicals, and I bet the person no longer has any impulse to help others.

Just a thought. What do you guys think?

As one of those "religious" helpers( though I really dislike the term), I have to completely disagree with the motivation of "getting a better seat in heaven."

Since I am a sinful human, I have helped others in the past with the promise of gain. It is in my sinful nature to try to get the best deal out of everything. We are all inherently selfish, and that is just what our flesh desires is selfishness. I would agree with you on all points... but only if Christ was never real and never payed for our sins.

However, I do not believe that to be the case. Christ is a game-changer. When you accept Christ's sacrifice, then all the tides change. Once you are saved and are adopted back into God's kingdom, your heart and motivations change. When you know you are saved by Christ, helping others is no longer about our personal gain, but about the others personal welfare. You sincerely do help others because you want to help others.

Millions of Christians have been persecuted and martyred for their faith and charity. The idea of persecution and martyrdom is the exact opposite of selfishness. There is absolutely nothing to selfishly gain when your own life is the cost of your actions; there is literally nothing to gain. Martyrdom is the kryptonite of selfishness.

Though I understand where you are coming from with the "better seat in heaven" because the Bible does speak of heavenly reward, I can assure very few, if any, legit Christians use heavenly rewards as their motivation for their faith in action.

[leadchipmunk]

Here's a manly topic for you?

Boobs or butt?

Butt<Boobs<Eyes

I like butts, I like busts (all sizes), but beautiful green or brown eyes have me every time.

I think that when you get right down to it, there is really no such thing as altruism. If you take the meaning as simply kindness or helping others, sure it exists. But if you want to define it as "selfless concern for the welfare of others," I argue that deep down all altruistic acts are inherently selfish. People do it because they feel a sense of obligation for kindness shown them in the past, hope of a reward in the future (re-payment, or for the religious, a better seat in heaven), or perhaps just the emotional reward we get when we help someone. All of these ideas/feelings exist because it's hardwired into our brains through evolution. It was an advantage to survival when our ancestors helped each other out, as the community/group grew stronger over time when individuals helped the other members. We help others to trigger some switch in our brains that makes us feel better, just like some people get a positive feeling when the eat junk food, beat a video game, sink a shot in basketball, or whatever. It's all brain chemicals and we like those chemicals. You notice that some people are really heavily involved in charity; I think they do it because they're in a way addicted to those chemicals. Take away those chemicals, and I bet the person no longer has any impulse to help others.

I think of altruism as doing good to help others without expecting something in return. The good feeling is going to happen pretty much no matter what.

I know I have helped others just to help them. I felt no discernible happiness or good feeling, at times I have actually felt worse for doing it. But I will do it again because I feel like that is what needs to be done.

The Temple actually runs more like a church than it does like a donation center. Though it has both, they focus more on going out into the urban and community ministry than having them come to them. I personally am going to help with the youth program, and the head there was interested in having me help counsel impoverished families get Diplomas/GEDs/Jobs/etc. Its like being a financial and spiritual adviser at the same time, I believe.

That sounds really awesome. Go you! We don't have any temple around here, just donation centers. Good luck with it!

Though I understand where you are coming from with the "better seat in heaven" because the Bible does speak of heavenly reward, I can assure very few, if any, legit Christians use heavenly rewards as their motivation for their faith in action.

I will only disagree with this statement. From a 100% Christian perspective, as done by true followers who live the Word, the people do it for the sake of helping others and not for the "better seat in Heaven." But many of the Christians I personally know help others (when they actually go out of their way to do it) for that good feeling, or the ability to brag about it or for the fabled better seat in Heaven. Now, this could very likely be regional bias or even mainly biased from my old church. I am in no way saying this is the norm everywhere.

[Artinum]

And then you have those Christians who are doing good works to avoid ending up in Hell. Some people react better to the stick than the carrot.

[Conk]

And then you have those Christians who are doing good works to avoid ending up in Hell. Some people react better to the stick than the carrot.

In this context, the term "Christian" is used very loosely. Most of the New Testament (i.e: Jesus and Paul's letters) speak often about these topics. These are called "legalism" and "Pharisaic" in New Testament terms. Jesus spoke against Pharisees who do good deeds to look cool and justify themselves (what leadchipmunk was referencing), and Paul spoke against legalism and trying to obey the law for salvation (what you are referencing).

So, if a Christian is truly living as the Bible states, then neither of those should be an issue or motivation.

[Hannibal]

I recall an episode of Friends in which Phoebe was arguing against that very concept. She was determined to demonstrate a completely selfless act - and failed repeatedly. "Letting a bee sting me" was an early attempt - she wanted it to look big in front of its bee friends, but didn't realise that bees die after using their stings. The final part of the episode she had it cracked - she made a donation to a charity run by a TV station that brought up bad childhood memories. A good deed, with no good feelings. Perfect! Except Joey was working on their donations switchboard, and her donation got him to appear on television, and this made her happy. Damn!

I'm inclined to agree with you, Hannibal - I don't believe in true altruism, and would consider it a form of mental illness if it did exist. There's always a payoff for any good deed, even if the payoff is irrational or intangible.

She was still acting out of essentially selfish reasons; she wanted to prove her belief in altruism was correct, be it to herself or to her friends.

As one of those "religious" helpers( though I really dislike the term), I have to completely disagree with the motivation of "getting a better seat in heaven."

Since I am a sinful human, I have helped others in the past with the promise of gain. It is in my sinful nature to try to get the best deal out of everything. We are all inherently selfish, and that is just what our flesh desires is selfishness. I would agree with you on all points... but only if Christ was never real and never payed for our sins.

However, I do not believe that to be the case. Christ is a game-changer. When you accept Christ's sacrifice, then all the tides change. Once you are saved and are adopted back into God's kingdom, your heart and motivations change. When you know you are saved by Christ, helping others is no longer about our personal gain, but about the others personal welfare. You sincerely do help others because you want to help others.

I see your disagree and raise you a disagree! If you feel that you've given your life over to god and that all your actions are done in his or her name, you'd still receive an emotional benefit for acts of charity. You still feel like you're doing a good job and living a purposeful life. Those are very strong emotional motivators. Whether you feel those shots of serotonin or oxytocin came about through evolution or were put there by the hand of god, the fact is is they're there. It's like you said, "[y]ou sincerely do help others because you want to help others."

We're complex beings with multiple layers of thought and emotion going on at the same time. I'm not saying that your greater, religious motivators don't exist, I'm just saying that underneath all that there is a bedrock of selfish motivation at the bottom.

Millions of Christians have been persecuted and martyred for their faith and charity. The idea of persecution and martyrdom is the exact opposite of selfishness. There is absolutely nothing to selfishly gain when your own life is the cost of your actions; there is literally nothing to gain. Martyrdom is the kryptonite of selfishness.

Also, I don't think martyrdom is selfishness' kryptonite. If you truly believe with 100% of your being that once you die you're going to go to heaven, or even if that's up in the air but you still believe that the work you are doing is the will of a higher power, how would the fear of death keep you from doing something you believe needs to be done? For the religious individual, there usually is some sort of life after death. I'm not discounting the very real fear and terror an individual certainly feels in the moments/hours/days leading up to their deaths, but I would think there would be less fear of the end because the individual would be in god's hands. It is god's will after all.

Though I understand where you are coming from with the "better seat in heaven" because the Bible does speak of heavenly reward, I can assure very few, if any, legit Christians use heavenly rewards as their motivation for their faith in action.

You might want to watch out for those "no true Scotsman" arguments. This is a message board debate, so I'm only taking it semi-seriously, but I've seen people rip into each other over such fallacies. And if you notice me using flawed logic, PLEASE tell me. I want to get better at debate, and I want you to get better too. That's one of the big points of this message board, for us to become better people, and to help each other along when we can.

In this context, the term "Christian" is used very loosely.

Sorry, but I don't think language works that way. A Christian is someone who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Just because someone doesn't live up to your ideals or is of a different denomination, that doesn't make them any less of a christian. You can't change the meaning of a word to suit your argument.

Here's a manly topic for you?

Boobs or butt?

Between the two I'm more of a boob guy. But really, it's all about the bust/waist/hips ratio.

[Loren Wade]

Let's try not letting this religion stuff derail this thread or get too out of hand guys. It would be a shame if the mods had to shut down the men's only women-free thread. Debating religion on a public forum is one of the most counter-productive ways for someone to spend their time... especially Christians.

[leadchipmunk]

Let's try not letting this religion stuff derail this thread or get too out of hand guys. It would be a shame if the mods had to shut down the men's only women-free thread. Debating religion on a public forum is one of the most counter-productive ways for someone to spend their time... especially Christians.

It wasn't me this time, Loren! I swear!

[Artinum]

(Phoebe) was still acting out of essentially selfish reasons; she wanted to prove her belief in altruism was correct, be it to herself or to her friends.

Indeed. So she was doomed before she started! I wonder if the writers of that episode intended that from the beginning?

If we need a new manly topic... will we ever see a film adaptation of The Dark Tower and would it be any good? Mr King's film adaptations are often quite... variable in quality.

[161803398874989]

It would be a shame if the mods had to shut down the men's only women-free thread

...which isn't even women-free. >.>

I stopped doing this religious debate crap a long time ago. You're not going to agree and you're not going to 'win', so just leave each to their own.

Also, Artinum, I checked with a gay friend of mine and he thought there was no real 'other thing'.

[Loren Wade]

It wasn't me this time, Loren! I swear!

Hahaha!

...which isn't even women-free. >.>

I stopped doing this religious debate crap a long time ago. You're not going to agree and you're not going to 'win', so just leave each to their own.

Also, Artinum, I checked with a gay friend of mine and he thought there was no real 'other thing'.

Haha, I knew someone would joke about it not being women free.

Agreed about religion debate. I think it's 100% fruitless... especially on an internet forum.

Love you guys.

[Artinum]

Also, Artinum, I checked with a gay friend of mine and he thought there was no real 'other thing'.

I think that shows a definite lack of imagination on his part.

[Guest Snake McClain]

Manly topic!

I started dating someone...she has a kid. She's a bit older than me. (5 years). The kid part isn't that important to me yet. I'm good with them. That will come out in the time it needs to. Right now I am really interested in this gal and I'm trying to be as "manly" as possible. Through winning her over and just being me. I don't want to fake it. I am going to he myself. But we feel pretty good about being together and I am looking for some ways that I can make her feel special. I know some ways sure. But Mayne something a little unordinary or just ideas that maybe I'd never have.

So dudes. How did you win your ladies? (Or how would you?)

[Guest Snake McClain]

Also about altruism...I'm inclined to agree with Hannibal. For me I love making other people happy and doing good for them. It makes me happy. I don't do it just to make me happy but that is a byproduct. So...there's that.

[leadchipmunk]

Manly topic!

So dudes. How did you win your ladies? (Or how would you?)

Congratulations bro!

How do I win them? I do not know. Either they are drawn to me or they aren't, I don't know what I do outside of flirt... a lot.

How would I? I have many ways that I can think of winning them over (after we are already together), but I's rather not give out any untested advice. What I can do is link you to some good advice though. All from Art of Manliness.

Picnic Dates - I've wanted to do this for a long time, but unfortunately never had the chance to.

10 Cheap Date Ideas - The untraditional movie night is a great idea and works wonders. That is my go-to movie date. And the Farmer's market/dinner night is awesome if you can cook, which every guy should learn. When a lady learns you can cook, instant brownie points. Extra is you prove it to her by making homemade brownies (not from a box).

4 Suggestions for Memorable Dates - Good general ideas, but mostly has been pointed out in the other articles.

Finally, I will tell you this out of personal experience. Get in good with the kid. If you can play with that kid for hours on end, she will absolutely love you.

[RaeVynn]

[sneaking in to scribble on the men's room wall a few things that win women over]

Don't solve her problems. Just listen, and offer a supportive ear. If she wants a solution, she will ask for one.

Notice things... how she dresses, how her hair looks, if she makes a change in her home. These are all extensions of her, even if she doesn't realize it. She will realize that you are incredibly intelligent, though.

Call her/text her: sooner is better. the day after the date is the best time, really. No, you won't look needy. You will look considerate.

[sneaks back out of the men's room - mission accomplished!]

[leadchipmunk]

Oh, something I learned recently... Calls > text > facebook, but visits > (calls + texts + facebook)

I abhor talking over the phone, so I avoid it at all costs. But when it comes to girls, do it.

[BarefootDawsy]

Manly topic!

I started dating someone...she has a kid. She's a bit older than me. (5 years). The kid part isn't that important to me yet. I'm good with them. That will come out in the time it needs to. Right now I am really interested in this gal and I'm trying to be as "manly" as possible. Through winning her over and just being me. I don't want to fake it. I am going to he myself. But we feel pretty good about being together and I am looking for some ways that I can make her feel special. I know some ways sure. But Mayne something a little unordinary or just ideas that maybe I'd never have.

So dudes. How did you win your ladies? (Or how would you?)

I remember seeing a movie years ago called the Tao of Steve. It wasn't much of a movie but one line stuck out. "Be awesome in her presence". This is basically the best advice I could give. Do something unusual in front of her like fix her car or make an incredible meal...sky's the limit.

[JediJem]

Don't solve her problems. Just listen, and offer a supportive ear. If she wants a solution, she will ask for one.

Notice things... how she dresses, how her hair looks, if she makes a change in her home. These are all extensions of her, even if she doesn't realize it. She will realize that you are incredibly intelligent, though.

Call her/text her: sooner is better. the day after the date is the best time, really. No, you won't look needy. You will look considerate.

I second all of this! And while what leadchipmunk said is generally true, occasional random texts (not bombardment) is sometimes better than calls, because it's less of a deal. And it shows you're thinking about her.

[Red1263]

I started dating someone...she has a kid. She's a bit older than me. (5 years). The kid part isn't that important to me yet. I'm good with them. That will come out in the time it needs to. Right now I am really interested in this gal and I'm trying to be as "manly" as possible. Through winning her over and just being me. I don't want to fake it. I am going to he myself. But we feel pretty good about being together and I am looking for some ways that I can make her feel special. I know some ways sure. But Mayne something a little unordinary or just ideas that maybe I'd never have.

Hey hey! Congrats, dude!

So dudes. How did you win your ladies? (Or how would you?)

I have so far no luck, but I must admit that there is a sudden appearance of VERY cute girls around

[andyTHFC]

If we need a new manly topic... will we ever see a film adaptation of The Dark Tower and would it be any good? Mr King's film adaptations are often quite... variable in quality.

If it is to be done it would have to be a huge production in order for it to work..I'm talkin' Lord of the Rings huge. Anything less than that and were looking at something like 'The Stand' miniseries. Apparently, Ron Howard is still in the very early stages of developing it.

Oh, and a quick hello to everyone as well. As you can tell by my post count, I'm a nOOb.

[leadchipmunk]

I second all of this! And while what leadchipmunk said is generally true, occasional random texts (not bombardment) is sometimes better than calls, because it's less of a deal. And it shows you're thinking about her.

I meant for carrying on a conversation. For those random moments, texting serves its purpose. I also do not know a woman that doesn't love waking up to a "Good morning, beautiful" text.

If it is to be done it would have to be a huge production in order for it to work..I'm talkin' Lord of the Rings huge. Anything less than that and were looking at something like 'The Stand' miniseries. Apparently, Ron Howard is still in the very early stages of developing it.

Oh, and a quick hello to everyone as well. As you can tell by my post count, I'm a nOOb.

Welcome Andy!

[wildross]

It will depend on her attitudes about such things but ideas..

Open doors

Open car door

Hold chair

Whatever you do needs to be something you can do for the rest of your life/time with her. If you hear "you used to xyz but don't anymore" its probably not good

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

[aj_rock]

Hold chair

Read that as hold hair and wondered how you knew that my girlfriend likes the sauce o_O

[pikespeach]

I also do not know a woman that doesn't love waking up to a "Good morning, beautiful" text.

100% accurate. Carry on. XX chromosome-being out.