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sophietheadventurer

If you decrease caloric intake but increase protein intake can you build muscle and lose fat simultaneously?

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1 hour ago, lowestprime said:

 

So I watched both videos. The first is not even relevant to the question asked by the OP. Side note: I've got no problem with IF and know a lot of people who have success with it. But I do have a fundamental issue with someone citing 10 year studies to show why traditional dieting doesn't work and comparing it to a 32 week study with IF. 

 

It's an older article, but I found the following: http://www.jbc.org/content/282/10/6946.long#fn-1 . Granted, this is also in a laboratory setting, so take from it what you will. 

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On 3/15/2018 at 1:51 PM, Sylvaa said:

 

It's an older article, but I found the following: http://www.jbc.org/content/282/10/6946.long#fn-1 . Granted, this is also in a laboratory setting, so take from it what you will. 

Ah... so trying to build muscle in a caloric deficit (i.e. recomping or being in a low energy state) may cause shp-2 activity which may activate s6k1 to limit muscle hypertrophy?


http://www.jbc.org/content/282/10/6946.long#fn-1
" These results implicate SHP-2 as an early mediator in the S6K1 signaling pathway to limit cell growth in low energy states. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P70-S6_Kinase_1

"Ribosomal protein S6 kinase beta-1 (S6K1), also known as p70S6 kinase "
" The p70S6 kinase functions as part of a signaling pathway that includes mTOR (the mechanistic target of rapamycin). mTOR can be activated in distinct ways, thereby activating p70S6K. For example, branched chain amino acids such as leucine are sufficient to activate mTOR, resulting in an increase in p70S6K phosphorylation (and thereby activating it). "
" Physical exercise activates protein synthesis via phosphorylation (activation) of p70S6K in a pathway that is dependent on mTOR, specifically mTORC1. This has been demonstrated by using an inhibitor of mTOR, rapamycin, to block an increase in muscle mass, despite increases in load (e.g., exercise). Exercise has been shown to increase levels of IGF-1 in muscle, thus inducing the IGF-1/PI3K/Akt/p70S6K signaling pathway, and thereby increasing the protein synthesis required to build muscle. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTPN11

" Tyrosine-protein phosphatase non-receptor type 11 (PTPN11) also known as... SHP-2"

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On 3/17/2018 at 12:57 AM, lowestprime said:

Ah... so trying to build muscle in a caloric deficit (i.e. recomping or being in a low energy state) may cause shp-2 activity which may activate s6k1 to limit muscle hypertrophy?


http://www.jbc.org/content/282/10/6946.long#fn-1
" These results implicate SHP-2 as an early mediator in the S6K1 signaling pathway to limit cell growth in low energy states. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P70-S6_Kinase_1

"Ribosomal protein S6 kinase beta-1 (S6K1), also known as p70S6 kinase "
" The p70S6 kinase functions as part of a signaling pathway that includes mTOR (the mechanistic target of rapamycin). mTOR can be activated in distinct ways, thereby activating p70S6K. For example, branched chain amino acids such as leucine are sufficient to activate mTOR, resulting in an increase in p70S6K phosphorylation (and thereby activating it). "
" Physical exercise activates protein synthesis via phosphorylation (activation) of p70S6K in a pathway that is dependent on mTOR, specifically mTORC1. This has been demonstrated by using an inhibitor of mTOR, rapamycin, to block an increase in muscle mass, despite increases in load (e.g., exercise). Exercise has been shown to increase levels of IGF-1 in muscle, thus inducing the IGF-1/PI3K/Akt/p70S6K signaling pathway, and thereby increasing the protein synthesis required to build muscle. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTPN11

" Tyrosine-protein phosphatase non-receptor type 11 (PTPN11) also known as... SHP-2"

Is this all just academic for you or are you working out? What are your fitness goals?

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6 hours ago, Tanktimus the Encourager said:

Is this all just academic for you or are you working out? What are your fitness goals?

I work out 3 days a week (swim 2 abs all 3). Planning to add other body groups/workout days in the next few weeks). I want to drop to 8-10 bf% (@13.5%bf 144 lbs rn) and add 20lbs+ of lean muscle over the next 2 years (mainly in the triceps obliques biceps back lats and chest). I currently fast the entire day (only water so 36hrs between meals and then workout before my meals on the eating days where I eat my single meal of the day) on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and I eat 10% above my tdee (ketogenic high protein fiber and fat) on the other days. I have lost ~1lb per week so far and ~2%bf per month (started at 16.5%).

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22 hours ago, lowestprime said:

I want to drop to 8-10 bf% (@13.5%bf 144 lbs rn)

 

So you're telling us that you want to be 3-5% bodyfat?  No one maintains 3-5% bodyfat, even professional bodybuilders.  People who do those levels build muscle, and hover more in the 8-10% BF range, and then when time come to perform/photoshoot/show off, cut dangerously to get to those "show off" levels.  So your wants are hard on the unrealistic side for someone who isn't doing training 24/7 as a career.

 

Also if you want to build muscle, you just straight up aren't eating enough.  Fasting is great.  Does wonderful things, but it does err on the side of weight loss, not gain.  You are essentially in such a severe deficit that you're spinning your wheels.  I know - I did the same damn thing for the longest time.  I was eating an average of 2200 calories a day, but working out so much that my TDEE was closer to 3600.  And I was doing that for months, and seeing minimal-to-no progress.  As soon as I upped my food intake more in line with my workouts and TDEE, I slimmed down an inch.

 

Building muscle is hard.  Food + heavy lifting does it, but it takes time.  I think the rule of thumb for muscle gains is something like a pound of muscle per month, if you're lucky.  You could probably make the 20 pounds in 2 years, if you're young enough and don't have a single derailment the entire time.  And you seriously need to rethink your entire methods, and not use models that are actually sales pitches, and not trying to use cellular mechanisms tested via in vitro settings as justifications for a more complex system. (Hell, I WISH we could use in vitro methods for humans much more, because it would make my professional life so much easier if my cells in my petri dish behaved closer to a human - but cell culture is a SINGLE cell type, and not the mash of types found in the body, let alone a single organ.)

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49 minutes ago, RisenPhoenix said:

 

So you're telling us that you want to be 3-5% bodyfat?

Thats not what I meant. I want to cut down TO 8-10%bf FROM my current ~14% ( so I can see my abs in poor lighting without flexing in the mirror). At my current bf%, I can only see my upper 4 abs, serratus, and some of my obliques while flexing in adequate lighting, the bottom 2 are still covered in a thick enough layer of fat to prevent me from seeing them at all. I just want to develop those lower 2 abs and my obliques a bit more and uncover them by loosing those last few lbs of body fat, dropping to 8-10%bf in the process. That's my goal and I'm close.

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2 hours ago, lowestprime said:

Thats not what I meant. I want to cut down TO 8-10%bf FROM my current ~14% ( so I can see my abs in poor lighting without flexing in the mirror). At my current bf%, I can only see my upper 4 abs, serratus, and some of my obliques while flexing in adequate lighting, the bottom 2 are still covered in a thick enough layer of fat to prevent me from seeing them at all. I just want to develop those lower 2 abs and my obliques a bit more and uncover them by loosing those last few lbs of body fat, dropping to 8-10%bf in the process. That's my goal and I'm close.

 

Ah, that's a bit more reasonable.  

 

You have a choice.  Eat a caloric deficit to drop the percentage points, or eat more to gain muscle.  I'd also make sure that if you're going to lose the weight triple check your TDEE calculations to make sure you're eating enough.  But you're well past the point where people suggest bulk cycles.  Eating more will help the muscles grow, which will help the last two abs pop, as it were.  A lot easier to build now and then do another cut to strip away the small amount of fat that builds up from the extra food than creep along on the recomp cycle.

 

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I have not read the full thread, but look up Lyle McDonalds rapid fat loss. It is a version of PSMF (Protein Sparring Modified Fast). I wont try to explain it. It is not intended to 'build muscle and lose fat' at the same time, but it is intended to allow you to very quickly lose bodyweight (fat/water) with minimal/no muscle loss. Allowing you to can subsequently put muscle on again while being less fluffy, or move to maintenance at a happy lower bodyfat %.

 

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Gaining muscle while losing fat-usually happens when you first start working out.

 

But, you can gain mostly muscle, if you do it slowly.

 

By gradually upping your calories--and little at a time--and closely  monitoring the results.

 

Yes, this may take longer, but, doing this way, helps you gain mostly muscle and not fat.

 

Hope this Helps.

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What if I alternate day fast (36hrs between meals; one meal every other day) with a 3.5kcal deficit per week and a 200-300kcal surplus above tdee on eating+gym days (eating ketogenically of course and intaking ~.8g protein/lb lean body mass)? Would this allow me to build muscle and loose fat each week? Why or why not (some relevant studies would be helpful in providing clarity)? My current stats are male, 20, 150lbs, ~15%bf, ~120lb/lbm). I know there's a massive hgh increase brought on by fasting and the caloric surplus on workout days seems adequate for muscle growth. it seems like the perfect plan. I've never seen anyone mention this online though? Thoughts? Has anyone successfully tried this before as this is the nutrition/workout plan I am roughly following right now.

The part that still confuses me is would I just be gaining and loosing muscle every other day, or would I be able to retain the muscle I gained on the eating/workout days through the protein sparing affects of hgh during the ~36hr fasting window?
How does a weekly deficit work the same as a daily one? Would eating at a caloric surplus every other day result in fat gain that may or may not be negated by the following 36hrs of fasting especially while eating ketogenically (≤20g carbs per day)?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom or nutritional research papers.

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10 hours ago, lowestprime said:

Would this allow me to build muscle and loose fat each week? Why or why not (some relevant studies would be helpful in providing clarity)?

 

Pretty sure you are not going to find any relevant reputable studies that would help or hurt this set up. You are talking about a very specific set of parameters that are going to be super difficult to replicate with any degree of confidence. Additionally, different people are going to respond to set ups like you are suggesting in very different ways. We've already talked about bulk / cut cycles versus recomp. How you have yours set up doesn't really change the conversation. If this is working for you, then does it really matter what anyone else puts in these comments?

 

In terms of building muscle in a caloric deficit, the answer is truly it depends. The people who see the most success with this are people who are 1. Overweight AND 2. New or inexperienced to weightlifting. There are a number studies showing this is possible, I'm not linking them. Google is your friend. If you don't fall into both of those categories, trying to do this gets significantly harder. I'm not saying it's NOT possible, I'm just asking why anyone would want to make this harder on themselves. 

 

A few other things:

On 3/18/2018 at 2:21 PM, lowestprime said:

I currently fast the entire day (only water so 36hrs between meals and then workout before my meals on the eating days where I eat my single meal of the day) on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and I eat 10% above my tdee (ketogenic high protein fiber and fat) on the other days. I have lost ~1lb per week so far and ~2%bf per month (started at 16.5%).

 

  • Ketogenic is usually not high protein - are you using a method for testing ketone levels? 
  • How are you measuring your body fat %? Depending on the method used, 2% is well within the margin of error for a number of tests. As long as you keep the measuring method consistent, this is a nice way to track progress, but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. 

 

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Thanks for the insight.

Since the time of the post you quoted I've switched to only eating .6g-.8g protein/lb lbm.

I track ketone levels with urine test strips and a bioelectric impedance scale which I'm aware are both not very reliable or accurate but for my purposes they're consistent enough to visualize trends.

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