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So, I've been following my own training schedule to increase my distance to do a marathon after failing my first attempt and a coworker and avid runner seems scandalized that I would run over 22 miles preparing for a marathon.  My plan actually over-shot the distance initially to give me room to miss runs and fall short of my total distance, but I'm so far staying pretty much on schedule (I've shaved a kilometer or two).

 

My question is, if I'm recovering and the distance increases aren't crazy high is there a reason I SHOULDN'T run farther? 

 

Everything I've read has said that total distance run before a marathon is the #1 thing that correlates to fewer injuries.  Running a greater distance would help both my mindset (I can tell myself I ran that far before) and my endurance.  I'm just not getting his concern.

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So, I've been following my own training schedule to increase my distance to do a marathon after failing my first attempt and a coworker and avid runner seems scandalized that I would run over 22 miles preparing for a marathon.  My plan actually over-shot the distance initially to give me room to miss runs and fall short of my total distance, but I'm so far staying pretty much on schedule (I've shaved a kilometer or two).

 

My question is, if I'm recovering and the distance increases aren't crazy high is there a reason I SHOULDN'T run farther? 

 

Everything I've read has said that total distance run before a marathon is the #1 thing that correlates to fewer injuries.  Running a greater distance would help both my mindset (I can tell myself I ran that far before) and my endurance.  I'm just not getting his concern.

Just to clarify, you are talking 22 mile long run?

 

What length of long run are you planning?

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3 minutes ago, Primeval said:

Just to clarify, you are talking 22 mile long run?

 

What length of long run are you planning?

 

Yes, weekly long runs. 

 

I ran 23 miles yesterday (normally Saturdays) and I plan on ticking my long run up 2 km per week (I measure everything in km) to 26 or 27 miles.  Then a two week trim. 

 

Here's my spreadsheet for details: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eu4HT1hH7EYHRwhq3GhIJqT-cJAWubGGFY4V7ZeuW4o/edit?usp=sharing

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Okay, makes sense. Good job by the way.

 

I think most marathon training plans have 22-24 miles as the longest long run, however there isn't any harm in running more than that... Just keep an eye out for physical signs of wear (brown piss, sleeping problems, giant pains in the ass). I also recommend joining the Trail and Ultra running group on Facebook. They will put everything in perspective for you.

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48 minutes ago, Primeval said:

Okay, makes sense. Good job by the way.

 

I think most marathon training plans have 22-24 miles as the longest long run, however there isn't any harm in running more than that... Just keep an eye out for physical signs of wear (brown piss, sleeping problems, giant pains in the ass). I also recommend joining the Trail and Ultra running group on Facebook. They will put everything in perspective for you.

 

Don't set me up for jokes at my coworkers' expense.

 

And I don't want to join anything of the sort.  After my marathon I'm done.  This is too much freaking running.

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Don't set me up for jokes at my coworkers' expense.

 

And I don't want to join anything of the sort.  After my marathon I'm done.  This is too much freaking running.

Ah, got it. So you would prefer to run shorter?

 

What was your longest long run prior to your last marathon?

 

Also, what is the date of this marathon?

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24 minutes ago, Primeval said:

Ah, got it. So you would prefer to run shorter?

 

What was your longest long run prior to your last marathon?

 

Also, what is the date of this marathon?

 

In general, yes.  Getting up to marathon distance I honestly feel like all the running is keeping me from living my life and sucking a lot of the fun out of running.  But in the context of this training I feel like over-shooting the distance is wise to ensure finishing on race day and my increases are so incremental that it's not changing my time commitment much.  I'd be happy doing 5ks on weekdays and a 20k or a race on the weekends.

 

My longest race was a half marathon, but I got a 20 mile training run in before I failed my last marathon at mile 5 due to injury.

 

The marathon is May 14th (my birthday).

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4 hours ago, Mike_d85 said:

 

In general, yes.  Getting up to marathon distance I honestly feel like all the running is keeping me from living my life and sucking a lot of the fun out of running.  But in the context of this training I feel like over-shooting the distance is wise to ensure finishing on race day and my increases are so incremental that it's not changing my time commitment much.  I'd be happy doing 5ks on weekdays and a 20k or a race on the weekends.

 

My longest race was a half marathon, but I got a 20 mile training run in before I failed my last marathon at mile 5 due to injury.

 

The marathon is May 14th (my birthday).

Well, happy future birthday to you! I'll try to remember that. 

 

Because you got your injury at mile 5 during your last marathon, it's likely not caused by too-short long run training. Right?? It's probably a result of-- sitting funny, or not warming up, or maybe even over-training. Who knows. My feeling is, you are hating your long runs, and you have already made it to 23 miles at 6 weeks before your race, which is incredible by the way.That's amazing motivation and hard work on your part! Good man. 

 

I want to share this with you, because I think it might help you conceptualize your last weeks before the race in a way that wont feel like torture. 

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/run-your-best-marathon-with-less-training

 

I'm not sure how you might fit any of it into your personal training plan, or if you should try. I do want to draw your attention to the last 6 weeks or so of this plan. Only 2 x 20 mile long runs, and they are every other week. You could have that!

 

 

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18 hours ago, Mike_d85 said:

So, I've been following my own training schedule to increase my distance to do a marathon after failing my first attempt and a coworker and avid runner seems scandalized that I would run over 22 miles preparing for a marathon.  My plan actually over-shot the distance initially to give me room to miss runs and fall short of my total distance, but I'm so far staying pretty much on schedule (I've shaved a kilometer or two).

 

My question is, if I'm recovering and the distance increases aren't crazy high is there a reason I SHOULDN'T run farther? 

 

Everything I've read has said that total distance run before a marathon is the #1 thing that correlates to fewer injuries.  Running a greater distance would help both my mindset (I can tell myself I ran that far before) and my endurance.  I'm just not getting his concern.

 

Have to say I'm with your co-worker on this one. I think the received wisdom for marathon running - for most runners - is not to go much past 22miles in training. I think things are different for elite runners, ultra training, and other special cases, but everything I've heard indicates this.

 

I found this a struggle because my first marathon was the first distance I'd attempted in a race that I hadn't done in training. But just as you reach a point where you can't run faster in training than you do on race day, so you reach a point where it's the same with distance. The way I had it explained to me was that your 20 mile/32k long run is not replicating the first 20miles/32k of the marathon leaving you to find the rest from somewhere on race day. Rather, it's the *last* 20 miles/32k of the race. The first part of the race you get free as a result of the taper. When you run 20 miles in training, you do so fatigued from the rest of your training and from the 19 miles you ran last week, even if you don't feel it.

 

I think it's true that time on your feet/distance run builds resilience and prevents injuries, but I think that's total time on your feet, not time spent on the long run. For my first marathon I tried to reach 20+ miles early and hold it at that, running that distance every week. I picked up an injury, which obviously I can't say was a direct result, but that's what happened. Fortunately just a microtear which I was able to manage and sorted itself out by race day. The plural of anecdote isn't data, of course, but I didn't have any such problem with my second or third/fourth marathons. Undertraining was more of an issue for the third, but that's another story.

 

The other bit of received wisdom is to have the occasional shorter long slow run when you get into the really long runs to allow recovery time. Dropping back to a half marathon distance, but running a bit faster because you can.

 

A really useful tip the coach at my running club gave me before my first marathon was that if I was anxious about getting round I should swap out one long slow run for a walk, and go and walk 26.2 miles. That way, I could show myself that I could do it and would finish one way or another (barring illness or injury). I didn't do it in the end, but just that thought gave me reassurance.

 

I guess my question to you would be whether you want to run over 26 miles in training because you think it's the best training strategy, or because you want to prove to yourself that you can do it in training to give yourself reassurance or confidence for race day. I ran a half in training before I ran it on race day for precisely that reason and got a lot of reassurance out of it. But that's for a half marathon... full marathon is a different beast entirely. If you think it's the best training strategy, then I respectfully disagree. If it's really because you want that reassurance, I wonder if you could find that elsewhere, or else deal with the uncertainty better. Easy for me to say - I was a mess for weeks before my first marathon, fretting and worrying. But I think it's worth remembering that all runners are capable of feats of speed and/or endurance on race day and in race conditions, with crowd support, other runners, the taper, adrenaline, the sense of occasion, and sheer bloody guts that we just can't do in training.

 

Having said all that... the main thing I'd say is that there are better and worse ways to train. I don't think - based on what I've read and my own experiences - that running that long, that often, that close to race day is the best training strategy. But it's not like marathon training is some kind of precise formula which is guaranteed to go right if you follow it to the letter and guaranteed to go wrong if you don't. Many's the time I've seen people arguing about the merits of running training plans when the reality is that both probably offer a great chance of success.

 

But if you are going to run those kind of distances, I can only reiterate Primeval's advice about being alert for warning signs of wear and tear and exhaustion.

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Primeval said:

Because you got your injury at mile 5 during your last marathon, it's likely not caused by too-short long run training. Right?? It's probably a result of--

 

Lack of cross-training and building my distance too fast as far as I can tell.  It's why I put so much emphasis on getting my distance up slowly (never more than a 10% increase week to week) and early (allowing time to recover after missing runs if necessary).  I also never let my distance dip down after doing my half in October (which contributed to ramping my distance up too fast last time).  Specifically something went wrong with the outside of my left leg between the hip flexor and the knee either because a tendon became inflamed or because the hip flexor lost functional strength and pulled when I juked.

 

Also, I am immediately mistrustful of any training plan with FU in the title.  I grew up nearby and... well, it's a long story with a lot of ins and a lot of outs and at least one swan attack.

 

2 hours ago, Rostov said:

I think it's true that time on your feet/distance run builds resilience and prevents injuries, but I think that's total time on your feet, not time spent on the long run. For my first marathon I tried to reach 20+ miles early and hold it at that, running that distance every week. I picked up an injury, which obviously I can't say was a direct result, but that's what happened. Fortunately just a microtear which I was able to manage and sorted itself out by race day. The plural of anecdote isn't data, of course, but I didn't have any such problem with my second or third/fourth marathons. Undertraining was more of an issue for the third, but that's another story.

 

The other bit of received wisdom is to have the occasional shorter long slow run when you get into the really long runs to allow recovery time. Dropping back to a half marathon distance, but running a bit faster because you can.

 

We are on the same page of the logic book for time on your feet.  Long runs just account for a significant portion of the distance and the only part my coworker seemed concerned about.

 

That other bit of wisdom gets my attention for several reasons, though.  It allows me to take a little time to relax when I'm supposed to be visiting my family (in the hot and humid south to boot).  It coincides with the Furman plan and one or two other plans I've seen after snooping.  Plus, it allows me to work on some speed for a week which I have nearly completely ignored for all this training.

 

All this being said I guess I'll do 35k (22 miles) this week, 21 (13) next, and back up to 35k the next week before I start to taper.  These super-high distances were plan A and I kind of assumed I would have to switch to plan B and haven't.

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Most marathon plans that I've seen include speedwork in some for or another. It's good to mix it up. I've found that marathon training increases my stamina at the expense of speed, and after a year with a marathon in the spring and the autumn I found that my 5k/10k/HM pace was well down on what it was, even with keeping speed work in my marathon plan. I can understanding falling out of love a bit with running at this stage of marathon training, but I wonder if part of the reason for that might be not doing speedwork? There's a joy in running long and slow, but there's a different kind of joy in running intervals, tearing it up, getting your breath back, and going again.

 

Best of luck with the training and the big day - keep us updated!

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Well, never mind.  Now my ankle is hurt so plan B is a go (take a time off and build back up).  After some google-fu it seems like my posterior tibialis is what is the cause of the problem. 

 

I guess I jinxed myself.

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4 hours ago, Mike_d85 said:

Well, never mind.  Now my ankle is hurt so plan B is a go (take a time off and build back up).  After some google-fu it seems like my posterior tibialis is what is the cause of the problem. 

 

I guess I jinxed myself.

:(

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On 4/6/2017 at 2:44 PM, Mike_d85 said:

Well, never mind.  Now my ankle is hurt so plan B is a go (take a time off and build back up).  After some google-fu it seems like my posterior tibialis is what is the cause of the problem. 

 

I guess I jinxed myself.

 

I recommend road cycling while your ankle is healing (depending on how bad it is). Cycling is easier on the joints and uses a different musculature so it's an excellent option (IMHO) for maintaining your cardio capabilities if you can't run. It's my go-to for recovery. I substitute cycling for running at a 2:1 mileage ratio.

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Hey, that cycling tip is cool.  I'm about to buy a bike so I'll have to try and remember that.

 

Just an update since the thread got bumped back to the top: My ankle is fine and I'm trimming for my marathon on Sunday.  I feel confident and I'm looking forward to it.

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20 hours ago, Mike_d85 said:

Hey, that cycling tip is cool.  I'm about to buy a bike so I'll have to try and remember that.

 

Just an update since the thread got bumped back to the top: My ankle is fine and I'm trimming for my marathon on Sunday.  I feel confident and I'm looking forward to it.

Good luck Mike. Let us know how it goes!!

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On 5/8/2017 at 3:05 PM, Mike_d85 said:

Hey, that cycling tip is cool.  I'm about to buy a bike so I'll have to try and remember that.

 

Glad to be of service.

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