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Also, Pew-pews - @Br0din, @Broba Fett, @Oramac and @Wild Wolf - can someone convince me why the .22 is a bad choice for a 1st, possibly only, handgun? The linked article had decent data, but is poorly written, and the author argues more convincingly from the devil's advocate position than when supporting his own conclusion. The crux of the article is below:

Quote

In Claude's lifetime study of defensive gun uses, he has yet to find a single case where an armed citizen was killed by a criminal after the criminal had taken at least one .22 round. In the case of civilian defensive gun usage, the criminal almost always flees after the first hit. I have been unable to find any gunfights that prove Claude wrong.

But take a look at the third column in the table above…

That's the statistic that most .22 advocates choose to ignore. It’s the percentage of people who were not physically incapacitated after any number of rounds. It's roughly three times higher with the .22 as compared to the service caliber cartridges.

The author seems to ignore risk mitigation thinking, or, he asserts that a dead opponent is the only goal of owning a handgun. No problems with dead opponents personally, red in tooth and claw, I'm on board with that potential outcome. But ease of operation, accuracy, affordability, and effectiveness in mitigating physical threats? What am I missing here?

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2 things to consider in my opinion.  How many rounds does it take to drop the perp?  How far will the round travel?  i.e. you could get .50 cal rifle and the perp will be dead, but so will your neighbor 15 houses over hiding behind their refrigerator.  But then if you get a low cal round that the perp can absorb 8 rounds of, and the misses get stuck in the dry wall...  you're dead.  I don't know the answer to this question yet as all sides will fight to the death at what is the perfect round to use.  

 

Then once you find the caliber you want, then find something you like to shoot.  Glocks and 1911s are both good styles, both with pros and cons.  When in doubt, find something fun to shoot and shoot the hell out of it.

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3 hours ago, Grumble said:

Oh thank cod I'm not alone.

 

2 hours ago, CourtnieMarie said:

nope, me toooo

 

1 hour ago, RhiaWolfe said:

Lol. Now I'M glad that I'm not the only one. Hehe.

 

Wowsers I thought I was the only one not watching this!!  Phew.  Ok.

 

Confession: I watched an episode once to see what all the yeehaw was about and actually didn't dig it. (shrug.gif)

 

 

 

Ayyyy SUBJECT CHANGE your new dog is ADORABLE ok, good grief, that video, so flippin' cute.  How old is she??

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2 things to consider in my opinion.  How many rounds does it take to drop the perp?  How far will the round travel?  i.e. you could get .50 cal rifle and the perp will be dead, but so will your neighbor 15 houses over hiding behind their refrigerator.  But then if you get a low cal round that the perp can absorb 8 rounds of, and the misses get stuck in the dry wall...  you're dead.  I don't know the answer to this question yet as all sides will fight to the death at what is the perfect round to use.  

 

Then once you find the caliber you want, then find something you like to shoot.  Glocks and 1911s are both good styles, both with pros and cons.  When in doubt, find something fun to shoot and shoot the hell out of it.

 

 

They probably deserved it. *nods*

 

Sent from my LG-K210 using Tapatalk

 

 

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1 hour ago, Laghail said:

Also, Pew-pews - @Br0din, @Broba Fett, @Oramac and @Wild Wolf - can someone convince me why the .22 is a bad choice for a 1st, possibly only, handgun? The linked article had decent data, but is poorly written, and the author argues more convincingly from the devil's advocate position than when supporting his own conclusion. The crux of the article is below:

The author seems to ignore risk mitigation thinking, or, he asserts that a dead opponent is the only goal of owning a handgun. No problems with dead opponents personally, red in tooth and claw, I'm on board with that potential outcome. But ease of operation, accuracy, affordability, and effectiveness in mitigating physical threats? What am I missing here?

I am not a gun expert, nor do I ever plan on owning a gun, but the way I see it he may put a lot of consideration into the "assailant who will not flea" scenario.  If you find yourself attacked by someone who won't run away even after being shot you are going to wish you had a more lethal weapon.  However, the way I see it the only assailants who fit into this category are mentaly ill/high, hell bent on killing you, or hell bent on dying.  I believe these groups are in the minority of home invaders and muggers so in my opinion a gun that will wound and rarely kill is ideal for personal/home defense unless you have a lot of violent enemies. 

 

Even if they get away after being shot, they will need medical treatment and hospitals report all gunshot wounds to the police. 

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Hmm...

 

I'm all for gun owning rights for hunting and sport in general. Maybe in case of apocalyptic scenarios,  zombie or otherwise,  and to ensure that the proletariat is sufficiently armed when the time comes to rise up dismantle the institutions that bolster inequality and take back what's rightfully theirs from their bourgeois oppressors and all.

 

But...

 

My big question for owning a gun for personal protection...

 

Is it really sensible?

 

In any case where its necessary,  you'd have to be at least one step ahead of the the perp. Unless you live alone or with other gun wise adults, keeping it handy and safe is near impossible. 

 

Now carrying,  you'd have to see a mugger coming,  they tend to be sneaky. And sure you could shoot them after but do you really want to have someone hospitalized or killed over your wallet or phone. Let alone putting that on your conscience. I don't think anyone 'deserves it'. 

 

Then there's the case of someone coming at you specifically as a target for revenge or whatever.  In which case,  could you maybe be less of an asshole? Jk, kind of.

 

Idk. I can imagine some instances where it makes 'sense',  but I think the majority of the time, it would be more sensible to re-evaluate your values and find better ways to avoid the danger. 

 

JUST BUY MORE YORKIES!!!

 

And again no judgement over gun ownership or whatever.  I'm just seeking clarification. 

 

Addit: I think everyone should carry a samurai sword tho.

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25 minutes ago, Br0din said:

2 things to consider in my opinion.  How many rounds does it take to drop the perp?  How far will the round travel?  i.e. you could get .50 cal rifle and the perp will be dead, but so will your neighbor 15 houses over hiding behind their refrigerator.  But then if you get a low cal round that the perp can absorb 8 rounds of, and the misses get stuck in the dry wall...  you're dead.  I don't know the answer to this question yet as all sides will fight to the death at what is the perfect round to use.  

 

Then once you find the caliber you want, then find something you like to shoot.  Glocks and 1911s are both good styles, both with pros and cons.  When in doubt, find something fun to shoot and shoot the hell out of it.

 

This is basically my stand on it too. The .22 round is very small yet abundant. Which is a positive in the long run. Cheap, abundant ammo is a plus...but like Br0din stated about stopping power...

 

IMO, I would rather shell out a little more $$ for a 9mm over a .22 just based off stopping power alone. 9mm is also fairly cheap and abundant. Though, if $$ wasn't an issue. .45 ACP rounds sound pretty lovely to me.

 

Also, White Buffalo Woman aka Elsie is one cute Yorkie ;) 

 

Wolf

 

 

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1 hour ago, shaar said:

Ayyyy SUBJECT CHANGE your new dog is ADORABLE ok, good grief, that video, so flippin' cute.  How old is she??

She's about 10 weeks. It's terrifying how small she is, truly terrifying. 

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39 minutes ago, Curl Brogo said:

I'm all for gun owning rights for hunting and sport in general. Maybe in case of apocalyptic scenarios,  zombie or otherwise,  and to ensure that the proletariat is sufficiently armed when the time comes to rise up dismantle the institutions that bolster inequality and take back what's rightfully theirs from their bourgeois oppressors and all.

 

Image result for this speaks to me meme

 

41 minutes ago, Curl Brogo said:

My big question for owning a gun for personal protection...

 

Is it really sensible?

 

In any case where its necessary,  you'd have to be at least one step ahead of the the perp. Unless you live alone or with other gun wise adults, keeping it handy and safe is near impossible. 

 

Now carrying,  you'd have to see a mugger coming,  they tend to be sneaky. And sure you could shoot them after but do you really want to have someone hospitalized or killed over your wallet or phone. Let alone putting that on your conscience. I don't think anyone 'deserves it'. 

 

Then there's the case of someone coming at you specifically as a target for revenge or whatever.  In which case,  could you maybe be less of an asshole? Jk, kind of.

 

Idk. I can imagine some instances where it makes 'sense',  but I think the majority of the time, it would be more sensible to re-evaluate your values and find better ways to avoid the danger. 

 

These are great points.  Self defense isn't just buying a tool and calling it good.  Its training body and mind.  Its walking scenarios through your mind and practicing what you would do. (mugger grabs your phone while you were talking on it and is running away, can/should you shoot them?)  Its knowing what the laws are and aren't.  If a dude is stealing your stereo in your house when you walk in the front door and then he immediately runs towards the back door, can you shoot him?  or If a dude is stealing your stereo in your house when you walk in the front door and then he immediately takes the stereo and charges you, can you shoot him? or can you sneak bake out of the house before he sees you and just call the cops?  

 

My mind set is 

Image result for run away

but if I can't

Image result for pew pew

 

 

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3 hours ago, Laghail said:

Also, Pew-pews - can someone convince me why the .22 is a bad choice for a 1st, possibly only, handgun? The linked article had decent data, but is poorly written, and the author argues more convincingly from the devil's advocate position than when supporting his own conclusion. The crux of the article is below:

The author seems to ignore risk mitigation thinking, or, he asserts that a dead opponent is the only goal of owning a handgun. No problems with dead opponents personally, red in tooth and claw, I'm on board with that potential outcome. But ease of operation, accuracy, affordability, and effectiveness in mitigating physical threats? What am I missing here?

 

There's a myriad of things to think about here, and most of them have nothing to do with the firearm itself.  But, since lists are fun, here's a list!

 

  1. A .22 in your pocket is better than a .45 at home.  It's cliche, but also true.  Translation: if you're going to buy a carry pistol, buy a pistol you'll actually carry. This means not only test firing the gun, but a host of other things as well.  More to consider in this point below 
    1. Consider its weight (including the holster).  How willing are you to carry that weight every day?  
    2. Where you plan to carry it (ankle/waist/shoulder/etc)?  This will largely inform the firearm you buy.  You can't practically ankle carry a Desert Eagle, for example.
    3. Ergonomics.  Do you like shooting the firearm?  This has nothing to do with an actual self-defense scenario, and everything to do with will you practice?  CCW holders, statistically, are more accurate than law enforcement personnel largely because they practice often. 
    4. Holsters.  If you spend the money on a nice carry pistol, for the love of all that is good and holy, BUY A QUALITY HOLSTER!!!!  Personally, I use a Comp-Tac MTAC holster, and absolutely love it.  
    5. PRACTICE!!  This probably should be #1.  If you can't hit your fucking target, don't carry the fucking weapon.  Shot placement is crucial.  Not only for eliminating the threat, but also to eliminate the potential for collateral damage.  
  2. Mindset.  This is the part that @Curl Brogo was asking about, and there are many points to consider here as well. 
    1. Are you able to handle the responsibility of holding someone else's life in your hands?  Give this some long, serious thought.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.  
    2. Yes?  Ok, are you able to constantly be in "condition yellow"?  Which is to say, you're always expending enough energy to be acutely aware of your surroundings.
      1. This doesn't mean you like the neat car that drove by.  It means you are always aware of your location (rich area vs the ghetto), the people around you (alone/family/friends), those people's comfort level and knowledge (or lack thereof) that you carry, and strangers around you and the potential threat they pose to you and yours (the soccer mom in the park vs the lone 20-something guy in the alley).  Yes.  You will be profiling people.  Get used to it, or don't carry. 
      2. Scenarios.  Once you've started carrying, you need to think about scenarios that can happen around you.  At work?  How do you handle an active shooter?  In the park? What do you do if XYZ happens?  Mugger in an alley?  How do you handle it? As CB mentioned, shooting is NOT always your best option (or even a legal option, more below).
      3. If the people around you know you carry (father/brother/sister/etc), have you discussed with them your process for communicating potential danger?  Do they also carry?  If so, have you discussed scenarios with them as well?  No?  Go do it.  Now.  
    3. Are you mentally capable of killing someone?  Again, think long and hard about this.  Pray, if that's your thing.  If the answer is not 100% yes, it is 100% no and you should not carry a lethal weapon.  Period.  
      1. On this point, you never want to specifically "try to kill your assailant".  You simply fire in a manner to most efficiently stop the threat.  If that results in death, you must accept that.  But death is not the goal.  
  3. KNOW THE DAMN LAW!
    1. It is your responsibility to know the law.  Period.  Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. 
    2. What are your states laws on Use of Lethal Force?  I guarantee there are statutes written on it.  
      1. If you draw and fire your weapon, you damn well better be in fear for your (or in some states, someone else's) life.  Without more information, in my opinion none of the scenarios CB posed would warrant use of lethal force. 
    3. What are your states laws on carrying into [insert place here]?  What are the exceptions, if any?
    4. Do "no-gun" signs carry weight of law in your state?  Some do, some don't.   
    5. Check out www.handgunlaw.us.  It is NOT officially sanctioned, so do your damn homework, but in my experience it is generally up-to-date.  

Last but not least, I AM NOT A LAWYER.  I have a lot of time and experience in this area, but if you decide to carry, find good solid pro-2A legal counsel in your state.  

 

Whew.  That was longer than I anticipated.  Cheers! 

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Part of my seventh grade science curriculum was actually hunter education,  a large portion of which was gun safety.

 

That really says something about where I grew up.  I've got to give credit to old Mr. Vencel. The rest of the course was about wildlife ecology and animal behavior... so it was a pretty genius way too engage some hillbilly (not an insult, I've known some great hillbillies) kids in biology. 

 

That said, I'm glad people on here appreciate the gravity and are taking gun ownership seriously and thoughtfully. 

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16 hours ago, Leigh said:

Has nothing to do with anything at all going on in here, I just thought you'd like it:

 

 

haha i thought it said mr. and mrs. liberal and i didn't get it at all... had to read it like 3 times before i realized it said LITERAL. now i'm literally lol.

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15 minutes ago, CourtnieMarie said:

haha i thought it said mr. and mrs. liberal and i didn't get it at all... had to read it like 3 times before i realized it said LITERAL. now i'm literally lol.

^^ I had to read it twice..... but then lolz at work

 

@Laghail

Guns: IMO a small one you will practice with is better than a larger one that you won't. .22s have less recoil, so in my opinion they are easier to shoot and practice with, so over time I would shoot more rounds practicing with say a .22 than a .45 just because of hand fatigue at the range and such. I can only handle so much recoil, and even if you are not a smallish lady like me, it is something to consider. More rounds shot in practice = better aim for most people. Accuracy is really important, especially if you're considering it for self-defense.

 

Caveat: I am a pacifist and I do not think I could not shoot someone else. Even non-lethally, even if I was in danger. It is possible if I was in imminent danger or someone I loved was, maybe I would, but I feel that I would be more likely to choose any other option even if it put me in more danger (but possibly not someone else? Idk, you may have given me something to think about). I do, however, like shooting guns at the target range, it's a skill thing for me and I'm pretty good at it. Maybe it's a weird combo, but it's also the way I grew up so, eh? (I'm from the south originally) I have shot a variety of handguns and rifles, but I don't actually own a gun.

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11 hours ago, elvenengineer said:

Guns: IMO a small one you will practice with is better than a larger one that you won't. .22s have less recoil, so in my opinion they are easier to shoot and practice with, so over time I would shoot more rounds practicing with say a .22 than a .45 just because of hand fatigue at the range and such. I can only handle so much recoil, and even if you are not a smallish lady like me, it is something to consider. More rounds shot in practice = better aim for most people. Accuracy is really important, especially if you're considering it for self-defense.

 

Caveat: I am a pacifist and I do not think I could not shoot someone else. Even non-lethally, even if I was in danger. It is possible if I was in imminent danger or someone I loved was, maybe I would, but I feel that I would be more likely to choose any other option even if it put me in more danger (but possibly not someone else? Idk, you may have given me something to think about). I do, however, like shooting guns at the target range, it's a skill thing for me and I'm pretty good at it. Maybe it's a weird combo, but it's also the way I grew up so, eh? (I'm from the south originally) I have shot a variety of handguns and rifles, but I don't actually own a gun.

 

It's definitely something to think about, but also to research.  Not all states have laws in place allowing you to defend someone else.  Which I think it kinda dumb, but it is what it is. 

 

Also, if recoil is an issue, might I recommend an FN 5.7 pistol?  They're crazy expensive, but the recoil is lower and they work especially well for target shooting.  

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