Strength training or hypertrophy for weight loss?

[Space Case]

I'm looking to lose 70 pounds and I've been doing weight training for a while now. My weight tends to go up and down a lot so I've just been maintaining. To maximize weight lose, would it be better to do strength training, or muscle mass building? This really confuses me because of differing information I keep encountering. Some sources say strength training is high weights and low reps, while others say it's high weights and low reps for hypertrophy. Which is it?? I'm so confused!

 

I uploaded the routine I'm doing, and apparently it's for hypertrophy. I have noticed I'm becoming stronger, but that's it.

[RisenPhoenix]

28 minutes ago, Space Case said:

To maximize weight lose, would it be better to do strength training, or muscle mass building?

 

The best way to lose weight is to optimize your diet, not your lifting routine.

 

It doesn't matter if you have the best lifting program in the world (which doesn't exist, by the way), if you're eating more than your body requires you will gain weight.  Focus on cleaning up your diet, and enjoy the workout as you go.

 

Also, strength training IS muscle mass building.  The difference comes in whether you are in caloric surplus (which will gain weight/muscle+fat) or caloric deficit (which will lose weight).  At 70 pounds overweight, just eat well and keep moving.  The rest is details you don't need to focus on right now.

[Defining]

@RisenPhoenix is correct - losing fat has a lot more to do with an energy deficit rather than which rep/set scheme you use. Bear in mind, strength and hypertrophy are not independent of one another, and there is no muscle building/muscle strength switch that swaps over at a certain amount of time under tension. There are so many factors to consider - cellular damage, nervous system adaptation, blood flow, hormones, etc. Short version: it's complicated.

 

Also, if you have been lifting consistently for less than 12 months, you are still very much in a 'beginner' stage - which means that you can see good progress with almost any routine, so long as you keep doing it! I'd suggest that you continue your routine (as long as you're enjoying it?), and take a look at your calorie and protein intake. Once you have 'stalled out' with your fat loss AND strength progress, then you can stop to consider tweaking your lifting for specific goals. 

 

Just remember to have fun, go slow, and be safe. Welcome to the boards!

[Raincloak]

What they said.  Lift weights to get stronger AND bigger muscles, and meanwhile check what's going in your mouth.

 

I prefer low reps with high weight cause I like getting the workout over with faster, but if you really enjoy lighter weights and more reps, well, have at it.  The only bad workout is the one you didn't do.

 

 

[Vibrantella]

They are not wrong - exercise is for health, diet is for weight loss. 

 

I shed about 70 lb just with low carbing (and a bit of walking).  Another 20-30 lb still have to go, but it's been difficult as I'm not as strict with the eating plan any more (working on it again).  However, in the last 6 months I've been going to the gym and regularly lifting heavy (for me) weights - my blood pressure and lipids have improved quite a lot from it (whilst they didn't much from the diet alone).

[PaulG]

I was going to add in something about weight loss... then I realized you guys already covered it.

 

Ooh! One more thing to justify the time I spent typing.

 

As @Defining mentioned, the line between training for strength and for hypertrophy is a fuzzy one. It's a spectrum: on one end, you have extremely high-load exercises, with only a couple of reps performed in a workout. This is primarily strength training. As you decrease the load of the exercise and increase reps per workout, the scale starts tipping toward a stronger hypertrophy response. The two are inextricably linked: training for hypertrophy still builds strength, though sometimes not as effectively; strength training always involves some component of hypertrophy, however small.

 

However, regardless of the fuzziness of the line, I think it's fair to say that tailoring a workout plan toward hypertrophy while a trainee is losing weight will most likely waste their time and energy. Not because the workout is a bad one; simply because hypertrophy training usually has more volume and is more time-consuming than straight-up strength work, and you can't gain muscle while losing weight anyway.

[PaulG]

As an addendum to my post, please don't take my writing to mean I think your workout routine is overly skewed toward hypertrophy or that it's currently wasting your time. It looks solid to me. No reason that you can't lose fat doing it.

[OptimusPrime69]

My vote goes to strength training (High weights, low reps). Hypertrophy training can sometimes make you feel really beat up and tired, which will only stimulate your appetite and therefore be making it easier to eat a bunch of food. Not what you want when losing weight.

 

Slight tangent: I've also found it much better to have a good level of strength first before beginning a hypertrophy program. With strength training, you're training your nervous system to contract your muscles more effectively, therefore making you stronger pound for pound. I'd say its better to get good with what you have before you start adding a bunch of mass with a hypertrophy program. 

 

Anyhow. Hypertrophy implies weight gain so you're better off doing strength. 

[RisenPhoenix]

4 hours ago, Organic Tampons said:

It best to do cardio if you want to lose weight. It's only after becoming leaner, you can indulge in some form of muscle build up.

 

No.

 

The best way to lose weight is to be in caloric deficit.  If you get there via cardio or lifting, it doesn't matter.  If lifting is going to be the exercise that motivates them to keep moving, that's fine.  Because I know if I was told cardio was the only way I was going to lose my weight years ago, I would have never lost the weight because I hate running so much and would have stopped.

 

OP, lift heavy, eat well.  That'll make you lose the weight.

[Juni0r83]

5 hours ago, Organic Tampons said:

@RisenPhoenix well i can only speak about my experience. Its cardio that made me lose ample amount of weight. I guess different body type reacts to different forms of exercise. And i agree with the caloric deficit part. Kinda fundamental.. No?

 

It isn't different body types reacting to different forms of exercise. It is merely a method of achieving and maintaining a caloric deficit. You can either eat less, or add activity. If cardio was something you could stick to, then you were able to sustain it long enough to achieve long term success. @RisenPhoenix on the other hand couldn't stand cardio, it had nothing to do with the way her body reacted to it, only that she couldn't bear to do it long enough to sustain the caloric deficit. Cardio is merely a tool, not the solution for weight loss.

[RisenPhoenix]

30 minutes ago, Juni0r83 said:

@RisenPhoenix on the other hand couldn't stand cardio, it had nothing to do with the way her body reacted to it, only that she couldn't bear to do it long enough to sustain the caloric deficit.

 

*cough* His. *cough*

 

Otherwise I've missed a great career in the circus as the Bearded Woman.

 

Jokes aside, everything Junior said it true.  Also in the same vein, I loved being told that Paleo is the only way to lose weight, and eating grains would make it impossible.  Particularly since most of my early weight loss was achieved with a big bowl of oatmeal every morning.  Didn't matter - I was still in caloric deficit the whole time.

 

 

[Juni0r83]

Just now, RisenPhoenix said:

 

*cough* His. *cough*

 

Otherwise I've missed a great career in the circus as the Bearded Woman.

 

Jokes aside, everything Junior said it true.  Also in the same vein, I loved being told that Paleo is the only way to lose weight, and eating grains would make it impossible.  Particularly since most of my early weight loss was achieved with a big bowl of oatmeal every morning.  Didn't matter - I was still in caloric deficit the whole time.

 

 

My apologies. Problem with internet handles. And not following enough of the regulars on here.

[RisenPhoenix]

4 minutes ago, Juni0r83 said:

My apologies. Problem with internet handles. And not following enough of the regulars on here.

 

No worries, it happens.  I find it interesting this isn't the first time that has happened, and it's happened over a couple different forums.  Apparently my writing style is feminine.

[Nadoriel]

On a different note, and with all due respect to Space Case (I really hope you've found your answer):

 

So, it doesn't matter which is strength training while on a deficit... so what are we supposed to do when our gains are horrible on a linear progression kind of training? I just changed to starting strength female routine because I basically started stalling in SS 2 months after I started. Not everything, but OHP, bench press, deadlifts stalled pretty quickly. I can only assume it's because of the calorie deficit. I'm obviously not an intermediary lifter, but I still want to do the strength lifting programs, keep my muscles while losing weight. Any suggestions? @RisenPhoenix @Juni0r83

[RisenPhoenix]

4 hours ago, Nadoriel said:

On a different note, and with all due respect to Space Case (I really hope you've found your answer):

 

So, it doesn't matter which is strength training while on a deficit... so what are we supposed to do when our gains are horrible on a linear progression kind of training? I just changed to starting strength female routine because I basically started stalling in SS 2 months after I started. Not everything, but OHP, bench press, deadlifts stalled pretty quickly. I can only assume it's because of the calorie deficit. I'm obviously not an intermediary lifter, but I still want to do the strength lifting programs, keep my muscles while losing weight. Any suggestions? @RisenPhoenix @Juni0r83

 

Well it does depend on what you mean by "stall."  That's early enough if you just started lifting that newb gains should be happening, though maybe slowing.  And sometimes the body just has a shit week which makes you think you've stalled, when really your body just needs a small break.

 

That said, ultimately this is where the Gainz vs. Weight loss dichotomy comes in.  You get to pick one.  Gains require caloric surplus, weight loss requires caloric deficit.  Them's the breaks.  So if you want to gain strength, you have to accept that you'll have to eat more, potentially put on weight/fat, but get the numbers you want.  Or you have to accept the numbers you have are going to crawl by, possibly stall, but the movement will help increase your caloric deficit so you can lose weight.

 

Another potential option since you're still early is just limiting your caloric deficit to see if it'll help your lifts.  I've been working this challenge on guesttimating my caloric burn when lifting and other things, and making sure I have no more than a 500 calorie deficit at the end of the day to help prevent losing what gains I am building, while also sliiiiiightly dropping fat.  It's a slow process, though, and if I picked one or the other it would go faster.

[Nadoriel]

12 minutes ago, RisenPhoenix said:

 

Well it does depend on what you mean by "stall."  That's early enough if you just started lifting that newb gains should be happening, though maybe slowing.  And sometimes the body just has a shit week which makes you think you've stalled, when really your body just needs a small break.

 

That said, ultimately this is where the Gainz vs. Weight loss dichotomy comes in.  You get to pick one.  Gains require caloric surplus, weight loss requires caloric deficit.  Them's the breaks.  So if you want to gain strength, you have to accept that you'll have to eat more, potentially put on weight/fat, but get the numbers you want.  Or you have to accept the numbers you have are going to crawl by, possibly stall, but the movement will help increase your caloric deficit so you can lose weight.

 

Another potential option since you're still early is just limiting your caloric deficit to see if it'll help your lifts.  I've been working this challenge on guesttimating my caloric burn when lifting and other things, and making sure I have no more than a 500 calorie deficit at the end of the day to help prevent losing what gains I am building, while also sliiiiiightly dropping fat.  It's a slow process, though, and if I picked one or the other it would go faster.

7

 

Hmm I reckon the "diet" I'm following puts me in a lot of caloric deficit. Also protein deficit. But I'm terribly afraid of changing it since I stopped losing weight eventually on myfitnesspall and was getting crazy with it, and then only lost again under a personal trainer. I could eat freely as long as it was paleo foods and I couldn't get creative with them (no breads, etc). Under that diet and training I actually lost again and became the slimmest I've ever been but... that was bloody expensive and I had to drop it. Now I moved home and don't even have access to it.

 

I don't know if it's related, but I can only train 2x week right now, which is a little annoying, but my shifts are crazy.

 

Anyway, if you say it's okay to keep doing the exercises even if I don't manage a higher weight, then I can do that. Maybe eventually I'll get the courage to change this diet a wee bit.

 

I definitely prefer to go slower on the weights and lose fat than actually put on weight right now. 

 

Thank you!

[Defining]

7 minutes ago, Nadoriel said:

 

Also protein deficit. 

 

I don't know if it's related, but I can only train 2x week right now, which is a little annoying, but my shifts are crazy.

So, these two caught my attention. For the first - you will lose muscle along with fat whenever you lost weight, but sufficient protein intake makes a HUGE difference to spare the muscle. Losing weight isn't worth it if you're losing too much muscle along with the fat - you should probably aim for at least 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Do you need that much to build muscle? No. Do you need that much to lose fat? No. Do you need that much to keep what muscle you have while losing fat? Probably. Look for cheap protein sources to fill in the numbers: canned tuna, cottage cheese, eggs, lentils, beans, ground beef, etc. You will likely also need to tweak your meal plan to reduce the carb/fat in order to increase your protein. It's easiest to set up a meal plan for the week and just repeat it, so that you don't have to do new calculations on a regular basis.

 

As for training twice a week - there are plenty of workouts you can do that don't require any equipment. There are plenty of studies that will show that two intense 15min workouts help increase caloric afterburn more than one 30min session. Try adding a few more supplemental 15min session to your week - skipping rope, burpees, AMRAP push ups, inverted rows on chairs or a bench, headstand pushups if your'e strong enough for them, lunges, bodyweight glute bridges/bird dogs, farmers walk with milk jugs filled with water, etc. So many options, and we can ALL spare 15minutes from our day somewhere, even if it means waking up a little earlier in the morning to get it done before brushing your teeth.

 

If you're super busy, you're probably also under recovering - you will need to take a hard look at your schedule and decide where/if you can add an extra hour of sleep, an hour of yoga, a massage session, foam rolling, a nap, meditation, a walk outside, etc. Recover is VERY IMPORTANT! Failing to work at your recovery as much as you do work at your exercise can absolutely lead to stalling.

 

Remember to have fun, and it sounds like you've already made good progress - but the basics will ALWAYS be most important: lift heavy stuff, move often, eat good food, sleep lots.

[Juni0r83]

14 minutes ago, Nadoriel said:

 

Hmm I reckon the "diet" I'm following puts me in a lot of caloric deficit. Also protein deficit. But I'm terribly afraid of changing it since I stopped losing weight eventually on myfitnesspall and was getting crazy with it, and then only lost again under a personal trainer. I could eat freely as long as it was paleo foods and I couldn't get creative with them (no breads, etc). Under that diet and training I actually lost again and became the slimmest I've ever been but... that was bloody expensive and I had to drop it. Now I moved home and don't even have access to it.

 

I don't know if it's related, but I can only train 2x week right now, which is a little annoying, but my shifts are crazy.

 

Anyway, if you say it's okay to keep doing the exercises even if I don't manage a higher weight, then I can do that. Maybe eventually I'll get the courage to change this diet a wee bit.

 

I definitely prefer to go slower on the weights and lose fat than actually put on weight right now. 

 

Thank you!

 

So, if you're in a severe deficit, that'd kill your numbers. It took 2 weeks of severe deficit to go from a nice, consistent 2.5kg gain on all three lifts each week on the Texas method, to failing warm up weights.

 

Once again, risen got it mostly right, you can either loose weight fast, or gain strength, never both. It is possibly to gain strength while cutting with strategic refeeds to ensure good training sessions, while continually working to improve technique, but it takes a more advanced knowledge of proper diet and nutrition than I have learnt (side note, I'm still fat after 2.5 years of this stuff, it's never as easy as you think it will be).

 

Training 2 days per week shouldn't be your undoing, in fact, the extra rest should mean improved recovery session to session, and thus you'll continue to gain longer into the cut than others would. So long as your programming is intelligent and your cut isn't too severe, and your protein is sufficient (doesn't need to be as high as supplement companies and their stooges tell you), you should be fine. Plus, just improving technique and Nuero-muscular efficiency will result in increasing lifts without the need for more strength, which is always a bonus to noobs who are trying to lose weight too.

 

Good luck!

[RisenPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Juni0r83 said:

Once again, risen got it mostly right, you can either loose weight fast, or gain strength, never both. It is possibly to gain strength while cutting with strategic refeeds to ensure good training sessions

 

See, I decided against running down THAT particular road to keep things simple.

 

But yea, refeeds can be done, if you really know how your body reacts to calories/carbs and the timing behind it.  I... really sucked at it.  

 

1 hour ago, Juni0r83 said:

and your protein is sufficient (doesn't need to be as high as supplement companies and their stooges tell you)

 

I'm curious what you go with, Junior.  I've been doing the 0.8g/ pound of body weight or the 1g per pound of Lean body mass as my minimum.  So I'm like, 155g of protein a day minimum.  I usually get more like 180-200.  I could probably cut out my protein shake in the morning post-lifting, honestly, but at this point I just like it.  Ha.

[Nadoriel]

3 hours ago, Defining said:

So, these two caught my attention. For the first - you will lose muscle along with fat whenever you lost weight, but sufficient protein intake makes a HUGE difference to spare the muscle. Losing weight isn't worth it if you're losing too much muscle along with the fat - you should probably aim for at least 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Do you need that much to build muscle? No. Do you need that much to lose fat? No. Do you need that much to keep what muscle you have while losing fat? Probably. Look for cheap protein sources to fill in the numbers: canned tuna, cottage cheese, eggs, lentils, beans, ground beef, etc. You will likely also need to tweak your meal plan to reduce the carb/fat in order to increase your protein. It's easiest to set up a meal plan for the week and just repeat it, so that you don't have to do new calculations on a regular basis.

 

As for training twice a week - there are plenty of workouts you can do that don't require any equipment. There are plenty of studies that will show that two intense 15min workouts help increase caloric afterburn more than one 30min session. Try adding a few more supplemental 15min session to your week - skipping rope, burpees, AMRAP push ups, inverted rows on chairs or a bench, headstand pushups if your'e strong enough for them, lunges, bodyweight glute bridges/bird dogs, farmers walk with milk jugs filled with water, etc. So many options, and we can ALL spare 15minutes from our day somewhere, even if it means waking up a little earlier in the morning to get it done before brushing your teeth.

 

If you're super busy, you're probably also under recovering - you will need to take a hard look at your schedule and decide where/if you can add an extra hour of sleep, an hour of yoga, a massage session, foam rolling, a nap, meditation, a walk outside, etc. Recover is VERY IMPORTANT! Failing to work at your recovery as much as you do work at your exercise can absolutely lead to stalling.

 

Remember to have fun, and it sounds like you've already made good progress - but the basics will ALWAYS be most important: lift heavy stuff, move often, eat good food, sleep lots.

 

Ok.. so I definitely have to review my protein intake and make it right, and then change the other portions as necessary. Basically, BLE (that I'm following) is like paleo diet with pre defined portions. Ahh, certain grains allowed, very sparingly. I always thought the protein intake was super low. But to be honest... protein is my next addiction if I can't eat all the sweets. Otherwise, carbs and fat are probably already quite low as well. Mostly green veggies, 2 pieces of fruit a day.

Right now my trouble with training is that I work long shifts. Basically I work the whole Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. Only leaving Wednesday and Friday to train. I'm currently trying to avoid weekends. Worse than that is when I do night shifts... I work Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and sometimes Wednesday night. I can't lift after nights. I'm too sleep deprived and weak. So I might force it Wednesday if I finished on Tuesday, and Friday. But if I finish nights on Thursday... I basically train only 1x.

 

Isn't in detrimental to do strength training twice in a row? Or with poor sleep? For example, this week i had 2 consecutive days off... But I only lifted Tuesday, and today I just had a swim. If I had gone today, I could go Friday as well and that would be 3x.

 

Otherwise I feel pretty okay XD but then again, I just came from holidays!

 

@Juni0r83, thank you so much for your input! I'm definitely gonna review the protein, and therein all portion sizes. I really don't want to lose much muscle/definition. I'll try the 1g for my weight in pounds then. Otherwise I'll try and keep the caloric deficit more or less the same (it is working after all) and just focus on try my best on lifting. Last time I tried refeeds and stuff, definitely didn't go well :> I reckon that's what made me plateau when I was counting calories.

 

Thank you *.*

[Juni0r83]

5 hours ago, RisenPhoenix said:

I'm curious what you go with, Junior.  I've been doing the 0.8g/ pound of body weight or the 1g per pound of Lean body mass as my minimum.  So I'm like, 155g of protein a day minimum.  I usually get more like 180-200.  I could probably cut out my protein shake in the morning post-lifting, honestly, but at this point I just like it.  Ha.

 

I've read some reports about vegan athletes that run super low (like 0.4-0.5g per pound of lean mass I think). There's a thing about (especially in a deficit) your body is trying to utilise the protein for energy instead of as amino acids for muscle repair. That's why protein intake is so much more important when cutting. But, assuming your deficit isn't too severe, and you're not seriously restricting carbs (or going keto, too much protein will reverse ketosis because your body breaks the protein chains down into more carbohydrate like chains), then I generally consider between 0.8g and 1g per pound of lean body mass is normally sufficient. I'm a big fat guy, and have around 80ish kg of lean body mass, and my recovery is normally okay if I keep my protein somewhere north of 120-140g per day, with many people telling me I should be more like 300+g per day. I'm happy to admit that everyone reacts differently, and I've listened to people tell me they do quite well on less than half of what I consume, and I've met people who struggle with recovery at more than what I consume. Basically, if you're sticking to your diet, and you're not suffering, don't change anything. If you are suffering, or struggling with adherence, change something and find out if it helps. You'll probably get a better understanding of how to achieve your goals doing that than reading pretty much every scientific journal on nutrition that's been written to date. And if you press the people who write those studies properly, most of them are quick to admit that we really don't know more than a tiny fraction of what's actually going on.

 

4 hours ago, Nadoriel said:

Isn't in detrimental to do strength training twice in a row? Or with poor sleep? For example, this week i had 2 consecutive days off... But I only lifted Tuesday, and today I just had a swim. If I had gone today, I could go Friday as well and that would be 3x.

 

I'm a shift worker too. And I work 12 hour shifts. I feel your pain. With my rotation I found a balance that lets me train 3 days per week with half decent recovery (not great, certainly not optimum, but half way decent). I generally train after my first dayshift (last night on this block), in the change over between dayshift and nightshift (tomorrow on this block), and then after I've gotten some sleep post my last nightshift (for this block of shifts it'll be monday). I then generally train on one of my days off additionally. But that all works out to Monday, Wednesday, Friday every week. I get that not everyone can do that, and sometimes you just have to work with what you have. But if you're training full body (SS, SL, Texas, etc) then yeah, it's best to avoid training 2 days in a row. And on the little sleep thing, well, I do it sometimes, but if I do I often moderate either volume or intensity to better match my reduced recovery since last session. Whilst training 3 days per week is ideal for this type of training, if you can only manage 2 days per week, only train 2 days per week. Some training is better than none. The best you can do is experiment and find out what works for you. So keep at it, and most of all, have fun with it. There's no point if its not fun.

[Nadoriel]

On 8/2/2017 at 11:16 PM, Juni0r83 said:

I'm a shift worker too. And I work 12 hour shifts. I feel your pain. With my rotation I found a balance that lets me train 3 days per week with half decent recovery (not great, certainly not optimum, but half way decent). I generally train after my first dayshift (last night on this block), in the change over between dayshift and nightshift (tomorrow on this block), and then after I've gotten some sleep post my last nightshift (for this block of shifts it'll be monday). I then generally train on one of my days off additionally. But that all works out to Monday, Wednesday, Friday every week. I get that not everyone can do that, and sometimes you just have to work with what you have. But if you're training full body (SS, SL, Texas, etc) then yeah, it's best to avoid training 2 days in a row. And on the little sleep thing, well, I do it sometimes, but if I do I often moderate either volume or intensity to better match my reduced recovery since last session. Whilst training 3 days per week is ideal for this type of training, if you can only manage 2 days per week, only train 2 days per week. Some training is better than none. The best you can do is experiment and find out what works for you. So keep at it, and most of all, have fun with it. There's no point if its not fun.

1

 

I don't think I could ever work out after a long day xD It's not that I'm tired, but usually my legs, feet, and back hurt. The usual xD and I'm super hungry by then as well. So the only thing I do (and because it helps short term with everything) is an asian squat while waiting for food to cook. But yeah, heavy leg syndrome sucks.

I used to work out after night shifts, but that's because on the wards we could actually sleep for a bit (1h+) In ED you get 2 separate half hour breaks. And I use at least one of them to have my dinner. Even if I managed 30min sleep on the next one, I'm a total wreck by 8h. I sometimes have to train later after the night shift, so usually after I sleep at home. But even then I'm not completely well. I definitely can't increase the weights and I usually feel the same weights are heavier than before.

Anyways... Habits are built nice and slowly so... I'm just gonna try and maintain this one of 2x week while eating at deficit (but increasing protein). Monitor for a few weeks-month, see what happens. I wanna make it happen this time ;____;