Muscles coming on, chub not coming off?

[DoogieT]

I've been throwing myself at the gym and my diet has never been cleaner. I'm losing weight, and if I take my shirt off I'm actually kind of amazed at what I see (pectoral muscles, biceps, triceps, a few ribs that would go great with barbeque sauce).

My weight is going down, but the flab I have around my waist seems to be doggedly clinging on. I know that there's no such thing as "spot reduction" (without liposuction) and that fat overall has to drop for my chub around my waist to disappear. Does this usually take a long time? When will I start seeing abs? (There's one on the upper right that comes and goes; I've named her Molly).

DoogieT

[161803398874989]

There's a difference between fat cells. The ones on your abdominals, for most people, are made in such a way that they are hard to persuade to give up fat. The fat cells in your face and arms, however, give up fat more easily.

What that means is that you need some more time to see fat loss around your midsection. Just keep at it.

[DoogieT]

Okay. I have no problem with it taking a while so long as I know it will actually happen.

[engineman312]

yeah, keep at it. that area is the hardest area to take the flab off.

[morethanjustamom]

Make sure you're measuring yourself at least every two weeks, that way you can see where the inches are coming off, even if you can't really "see" them.

[Kishi]

Yeah, and make sure the measurement is not just around the middle. Make sure you've got multiple sites for measurement. Speaking from experience, you will drive yourself crazy if you're only gauging your progress based on one place.

[epaleocookbooks]

Unfortunately, no you can't spot-reduce. All you can do is keep hitting the gym, focusing on your diet and building up those core muscles. Stomach and back fat seems to be the toughest to get rid of. I have a theory that your body holds on to whatever flab it can to make you look the fattest for the longest amount of time possible. Our fat machine is a sadistic jerk.

Don't get discouraged!

[Luthorcrow]

Keep in mind you are also wrestling with a not entirely healthy body image induced by modern media. Yup, in the last two decades dudes have caught up with girls on unrealistic body images. The fact is six pack is not something that everyone can comfortable maintain over the long haul and is not necessarily a sign of great fitness. I am not saying you won't get there just in the end it may not be as important as you think it is now or at least to the level you see in your head.

[Laurette]

As a general rule, the first place you gain weight will be the last place you lose. So if you gain weight in your midsection first, it's going to be the last to go, just keep at it!

[161803398874989]

Keep in mind you are also wrestling with a not entirely healthy body image induced by modern media. Yup, in the last two decades dudes have caught up with girls on unrealistic body images. The fact is six pack is not something that everyone can comfortable maintain over the long haul and is not necessarily a sign of great fitness.

I very much agree with the latter, not so much with the former. With dedication, everything's possible.

[Mr. Decay]

Honestly, if you just keep on keeping on and stay the course with what you're doing.. it will drop off in time.

While losing weight I at first noticed at first that my face, neck, and arms all getting thinner... My arms and legs got more muscular, and everything seemed hunky doory.. But the big old keg of a belly I had grown over the years was still there, mocking me. It wasn't until the last 5 pounds or so that I've lost that I noticed the belly fat started thinning out. It just takes time.

[Luthorcrow]

I very much agree with the latter, not so much with the former. With dedication, everything's possible.

Let me clarify, I am not saying it is out of reach but what I am saying is that the permanent changes required is not for everyone and the obsession with extremely low body fat is an aesthetic choice not necessarily a fitness choice. You can be incredibly be fit at 15% BF, never quite achieving that six pack and look great. They idea that maintaining at say 10% BF has anything to do with being fit is my point. It can be a by product of great fitness but more often than not has more to do with diet and an aesthetic choice rather than a functional one.

[Waldo]

I very much agree with the latter, not so much with the former. With dedication, everything's possible.

Same.

Every guy can comfortably maintain 9-10% BF IMHO.

[Waldo]

Let me clarify, I am not saying it is out of reach but what I am saying is that the permanent changes required is not for everyone and the obsession with extremely low body fat is an aesthetic choice not necessarily a fitness choice. You can be incredibly be fit at 15% BF, never quite achieving that six pack and look great. They idea that maintaining at say 10% BF has anything to do with being fit is my point. It can be a by product of great fitness but more often than not has more to do with diet and an aesthetic choice rather than a functional one.

In most guys 15%->10% is about 8-9 lbs of fat. It is a fitness choice because you will be able to run faster, jump higher, and lift more with less excess baggage.

Yes, you need the dedication to spend months on a slight deficit diet to reach 10% or less, but it is not some impossible out of reach thing. If you are are good shape, you will be able to outrun your fork (if you can't you aren't in good shape) so it is not overly hard to do.

[Ocelot]

If you are are good shape, you will be able to outrun your fork (if you can't you aren't in good shape) so it is not overly hard to do.

That's a cool turn of phrase. I hope you're right and I hope I know when I get to being in good shape!

[161803398874989]

I'm kinda with Waldo here, but also kinda with Luthor. You can be fit without low bodyfat, sure. Nothing wrong with that. But some fitness endeavors benefit from low bodyfat (ie. bodyweight training), so in those cases it is a matter of fitness. In other cases (weightlifting) it is a matter of aesthetics. It all depends on what you do.

[Luthorcrow]

@161803398874989, good point. I agree there are some sports were it is by product of hard work. Boxers being a good example. If you see match and one go is little softer you know more often then not the leaner boxer is going to win. But it does not apply to all sports and really most of us here for general fitness. So I am speaking more towards general fitness and universally.

@Waldo, you made my point for me. Yes, it is all about the fork and not fitness. I never said it was impossible to achieve but that the obsession with it is more often than not an body image choice not a performance choice.

...run faster, jump higher, and lift more with less excess baggage..

Actually the guys that can lift the most have plenty of extra baggage. You can't get big without baggage, at least during a gain cycle. Whether 10lbs is going to allow the average person to run faster or jump higher, maybe but without some studies to back it up were are really just theorizing as we could theorize that there may be some negatives for maintaining that low of BF over a long period of time. More likely the real performance difference of that much body weight is probably pretty minimal.

[Waldo]

Whether 10lbs is going to allow the average person to run faster or jump higher, maybe but without some studies to back it up were are really just theorizing

Theorizing?

Do you follow football above the HS level? Ever seen a good DB or WR carrying more than 10% BF? Watch the scouting combine, the only guys that aren't sub 10% (most are a good bit lower) are the ones that need the scale to say number X or greater to fit into pro positional molds. Those guys have millions riding on their performance there. My little bro played Div1 ball, LB and FB. He sported washboard abs throughout his college playing career.

Actually the guys that can lift the most have plenty of extra baggage. You can't get big without baggage, at least during a gain cycle.

True, but GFH isn't normally done much anymore, most will cut the excess baggage off before it gets unweildy. The ideal muscle building band, where the body will store the greatest % of excess as muscle is in the 10-12% area. Below that and the body wants more fat. As you go above that and are fatter and fatter, the body tends to allocate a greater % to fat. Those guys can lift the most because they never bother to cut the excess fat off, to spend time with suboptimal training. But it really does depend on your definition of strength, there is a reason you don't see guys built like powerlifters on Ninja Warrior, which requires a ton of strength as well, but not the type a powerlifter would be any good at.

[161803398874989]

True, but GFH isn't normally done much anymore, most will cut the excess baggage off before it gets unweildy. The ideal muscle building band, where the body will store the greatest % of excess as muscle is in the 10-12% area. Below that and the body wants more fat. As you go above that and are fatter and fatter, the body tends to allocate a greater % to fat. Those guys can lift the most because they never bother to cut the excess fat off, to spend time with suboptimal training. But it really does depend on your definition of strength, there is a reason you don't see guys built like powerlifters on Ninja Warrior, which requires a ton of strength as well, but not the type a powerlifter would be any good at.

As usual, specifity is king. It all depends on your definition of fitness.

Personally I don't think many powerlifters are fit.

[azsf]

re belly fat, yeh it's the same for me too. seems to be the last refuse for my cheat days lol; straight to spare tire. if you're just looking at yourself, and not taking measurements and tests or anything, little things like posture, pelvic tilt, and lighting will make you look fatter / leaner than you are. keep up the good work, post a progress photo when you finally get dem abs xD

[Sambalina]

Hang in there DoogieT! Everyone seems to have some great advice. Molly will have some friends one day soon. Will the next one be called Mandy?

[Luthorcrow]

Theorizing?

Do you follow football above the HS level? Ever seen a good DB or WR carrying more than 10% BF? Watch the scouting combine, the only guys that aren't sub 10% (most are a good bit lower) are the ones that need the scale to say number X or greater to fit into pro positional molds. Those guys have millions riding on their performance there. My little bro played Div1 ball, LB and FB. He sported washboard abs throughout his college playing career. .

I never said that low BF as a byproduct of fitness is not healthy are a sign of a superior athlete. But let’s get real for a moment, the example of a football player, whether HS or college level, does not apply to anyone but the idle rich. Anyone with a job, family and a social life simple does not have 2-4 or more hours a day to dedicate to training. Also you comparing a college student to the average adult male?!? Come on, 10-12% BF in your early 20s is a snap for most athletically inclined people. I did that without even watching my diet back then but once you hit 25, 30, 35, 40, etc. that will no longer be a byproduct of fitness without either an extreme amount of training time that the average person simply cannot do or dieting.

For the vast majority of people not in adolescence or in their early 20s, it is only achievable by dieting.

True, but GFH isn't normally done much anymore, most will cut the excess baggage off before it gets unweildy. The ideal muscle building band, where the body will store the greatest % of excess as muscle is in the 10-12% area. Below that and the body wants more fat. As you go above that and are fatter and fatter, the body tends to allocate a greater % to fat.

Source? Last time I checked, even BB gain more than 12% when building muscle and not cutting.

Those guys can lift the most because they never bother to cut the excess fat off, to spend time with suboptimal training. But it really does depend on your definition of strength, there is a reason you don't see guys built like powerlifters on Ninja Warrior, which requires a ton of strength as well, but not the type a powerlifter would be any good at.

I think suggesting powerlifters are not fit is just hyperbole. They may not be my idea of ideal or yours but denying that they are fit is just without basis. Specialized, yes but then so are marathon runners.

Look, I am not saying that having a six pack as a byproduct of hours and hours of training is not a sign of great fitness but I am saying that for most adults you are not going to get there with an hour or two of exercise 4-5 times a week. You are really talking about a dieting issue. I also think the obsession with the 10% ideal is a fashion one and not under the average circumstances a performance one. Being 10lbs less just to be 10lbs less does not make you any more fit. It just gives you a better beach body. Form should follow function. In this case, form is being held up as function.

[aj_rock]

Counter point: run a lap, sprint, whatever, then do it again with a ten lb vest. It makes a difference. Those guys that Waldo used as an example; all about 6'1", 6'2", and 190ish lbs with 10% BF max. It's just the optimal size for the role they play. I would hardly call them 'idle rich' either; how many all-star football players come from rich neighborhoods? The motivation isn't there.

BBers get to about 15% last I heard. They also most definitely lose their six pack in the process, and diet HARD to get back down afterwards. GFH had guys getting up to like 20% and stuffing their faces with everything in reach.

And by 'fit', Waldo was most definitely referring to cardiovascular fitness. Nevermind marathons, I'd like to see a powerlifter run a decent 100 meter or even 2k.

[Waldo]

And by 'fit', Waldo was most definitely referring to cardiovascular fitness. Nevermind marathons, I'd like to see a powerlifter run a decent 100 meter or even 2k.

It was more along the lines of the paradox of exercise.

That the people that need the calories from exercise the most (out of shape people trying to lose weight) aren't in good enough shape to burn much; exercise doesn't do a whole lot for them.

Those that need the calories from exercise the least, athletes and others who are in good shape, are the ones who have the work capacity to actually burn a large number of calories from exercise, who can lose weight while completely ignoring their diet. When you are in that state you are very much outrunning your fork; feeding your exercise habit is not optional, it is necessity, and you should have little trouble dropping to a relatively low BF%; in fact I believe that dropping to a low bodyfat% when you can outrun your fork is actually easier than gaining weight (a fact I am currently struggling with, I gave up last night 500 calories under my daily goal, eating 4K calories daily is quite a challenge).

[161803398874989]

I think suggesting powerlifters are not fit is just hyperbole. They may not be my idea of ideal or yours but denying that they are fit is just without basis. Specialized, yes but then so are marathon runners.

It's not a hyperbole. Powerlifters (in general) are not fit. They can't run a 5K. Marathon runners likewise, perhaps. I don't know what their strength levels are at, but I bet I could beat one in a wrestling match.

Look, I am not saying that having a six pack as a byproduct of hours and hours of training is not a sign of great fitness but I am saying that for most adults you are not going to get there with an hour or two of exercise 4-5 times a week. You are really talking about a dieting issue. I also think the obsession with the 10% ideal is a fashion one and not under the average circumstances a performance one. Being 10lbs less just to be 10lbs less does not make you any more fit. It just gives you a better beach body. Form should follow function. In this case, form is being held up as function.

Of course you're not going to get there with an hour or two of exercise 4-5 times a week... abs are made in the kitchen! However, once you get to abs and you're an active person (exercising 4-5 times a week), they are pretty easy to keep as your metabolism goes up (I can't find the study right now, unfortunately).

Especially as Waldo and I are mainly bodyweight guys, for us dropping bodyfat means we get an improvement in function. It all depends on what you actually do and what you consider fitness.