Moving to Canada, where should I live?

[Spongela]

I am going to be leaving the lovely grey skies of the UK in a few months, for new adventures in Canada. I have a working visa for 12 months, and am trying to decide where I want to stay first, Preferably in a city. So my intial choices were either Vancouver or Toronto. If anyone lives in Canda or has visited, please help me decide where is going to be a better experience

[Raikas]

I've lived in 4 cities Canadian cities (in 3 provinces) and I think it depends on your expectations and preferences.

What kind of work are you planning on doing? Is it just for the experience or are you hoping to save money as well? Are you going to have a vehicle or will you want to be able to walk/use transit primarily? What kind of activities are you interested in?

[Spongela]

I've lived in 4 cities Canadian cities (in 3 provinces) and I think it depends on your expectations and preferences.

What kind of work are you planning on doing? Is it just for the experience or are you hoping to save money as well? Are you going to have a vehicle or will you want to be able to walk/use transit primarily? What kind of activities are you interested in?

I am hoping to do some media work there If I can get into that. So I am going over there both to work and have an experience I guess. No wont be driving so will be relying on public transport and walking.

So far people have told me Vancouver is more chilled out and there is lots more outdoor things to do. Toronto is a busier city but with more night life and lots to do there, but its more of an Americanised city. I am more Interested in doing outdoor things, wouldn't mind trying snowboarding or skiing in the winter.

I just keep hearing that Vancouver is really expensive though.

[Raikas]

That last bit is true - Housing in Vancouver is the most expensive in the country. For a short term renter, that means you're competing with older professionals who, in other markets, would have purchased something, so the rental prices are forced upwards as a result. You can go further out of the core, but the transit system is rather limited, so the commute time is likely to be deadly.

That said, Vancouver is very pretty - you have the mountain on one side and the ocean on the other, so your photos will impress everyone! Also the climate doesn't have Toronto's extremes of heat and cold, so it's probably more comfortable since you're coming from the UK (it rains all the time in Vancouver). And if you're looking to ski, you're close to Whistler (although again, even though it's not far the traffic going up there is deadly). If you're planning to have guests come and visit you, Vancouver is very impressive for weekend visitors, so that might be worth considering.

Culturally, Toronto has more to offer. Being the largest city in the country means there's more going on - and that includes everything from clubs to museums to festivals. If you're into music, it's worth noting that a lot of artists don't stop in Vancouver (or anywhere in Canada other than Toronto and Montreal*). Additional positives: the transit system is more solid than Vancouver's, and housing in the core is more affordable. Toronto is also the headquarters to most of English-Canada's TV, radio and publishing houses, so if you're set on a media role that might help in your job search.

I don't think it's true that Toronto is particularly more American-seeming than Vancouver (while they're both more American-seeming than Montreal they're certainly much less so than than Calgary*, and even Calgary is distinctly Canadian). There are also quite a few opportunities for outdoor activities in the Toronto area (you're on the one of the Great Lakes, and not very far from several provincial/national parks to the north), but obviously you won't have access to the skiing/snowboarding of the west - and the weather extremes mean that there will be periods of the winter and summer where you might not be comfortable outside.

Either way I think you'll have great fun though!

*I know you have it narrowed down to just Vancouver and Toronto, but in case you're considering anywhere else, if you want to have the least American-style experience in a large Canadian city, why not go for Montreal? And if you really want to do a lot of skiing/outdoor activities, Calgary is awesome - it's very close to Banff/Canmore/Lake Louise/Kaninaskis and has the easiest job market to enter. That said, Montreal is harder if you don't speak French and Calgary is a bit of a cultural wasteland with strange weather patterns.

[Cutebug]

VANCOUVER!

I've never been to Eastern Canada but I just loooove my home city. I never want to live anywhere else. Vancouver will always be my home. It's surrounded by the ocean and the coastal mountain range. It's got hiking, paddling, skiing... all less than an hour out of downtown Van.

Yes, Vancouver is expensive... but imo, it's worth it.

Do you want to live 10 mins from the beach? Do you want to live 40 mins from the mountain? Do you want to try out a world-class ski resort?

Here are some Vancouver hiking trails:

http://www.vancouvertrails.com/trails/?sort=difficulty&filter=#list

Vancouver is also super multicultural and definitely west-coast laid back.

Climate is also a HUGE factor. Toronto has a lot harsher weather than Van. We're a temperate rainforest so we don't get too hot in summer (mid July and we're at about 22-24 right now) and we don't get much below 0 in winter. We get maybe 3-4 days of snow per year. We DO get a lot of rain, but hey, you're from England so you're probably used to that! lol

[Spongela]

Climate is also a HUGE factor. Toronto has a lot harsher weather than Van. We're a temperate rainforest so we don't get too hot in summer (mid July and we're at about 22-24 right now) and we don't get much below 0 in winter. We get maybe 3-4 days of snow per year. We DO get a lot of rain, but hey, you're from England so you're probably used to that! lol

]

Yep very used to that specially right now rainy summer Thanks for the information though, Vancouver does look really beautiful. I think what will sway it right now though is where I can get work in my related field of video production. I am hoping to be over there 2 years, so I may think about getting over to see both sides of Canada hopefully.

[Spongela]

@ Raikas Thanks for the Info, it does help a lot trying to get opinions from people living there or experience with the places. I think I will have fun with which ever place I choose to stay. Right now its where I will get work that will sway it, and If I get to be there for 2 years I can try and experience both sides hopefully

[Cutebug]

Yep very used to that specially right now rainy summer Thanks for the information though, Vancouver does look really beautiful. I think what will sway it right now though is where I can get work in my related field of video production. I am hoping to be over there 2 years, so I may think about getting over to see both sides of Canada hopefully.

Well Vancouver is Hollywood North. If you watch TV, I bet a couple of your fave shows are filmed here

I'm a Sci Fi/Fantasy Nerd so the shows I know are filmed here are Smallville, Supernatural, Dark Angel, The 4400, The Secret Circle.... The L Word also was (is??), and The Final Destination Movies... sorry to say this but Twilight.... MacGyver.... Etc etc

So it might be a good destination for you!

[Underling]

Just don't come to Alberta. We're basically the rednecks of the country, and aside from random chinook winds that heat up Calgary at random intervals the winters are unforgiving (cause the province is so wide open) and the summers are either really hot, really cold or stormy as all heck.

So from what my British friend has told me, it's basically the UK only slightly colder.

Although, Calgary and Edmonton have really good universities and Calgary is usually a hub of technology. I've heard Toronto is a bit smothering and insane, and it's the smoggiest city we have. Go for Vancouver! I'd live there if I could. The closer to the West coast you get, the less insane the weather gets. And yeah, they film a ton of things in Vancouver.

[Raikas]

Just don't come to Alberta.

I think the piles of Europeans, Australians and Japanese who do their gap year(s) in Banff might disagree with that advice!

Seriously though, I lived in Calgary for 4 years and really enjoyed it - culturally it can't compare to T.O./Van/Montreal, but in every other way I thought it held its own. Not the place to go for media jobs though, so probably not the right choice for Spongela, of course!

Well Vancouver is Hollywood North.

Actually, both Vancouver and Toronto claim that title. Film spending is higher in Vancouver but TV productions are more numerous in Toronto so I don't think there's a clear winner (although the schmooze benefits of TIFF might be worth mentioning - I worked for a Toronto documentary production company when I was in university, and volunteering at TIFF was one of the things that a lot of the up-and-comping behind-the-scenes types did to give themselves facetime with the establishment).

[Horsedog]

Don't overlook Montreal!!!! It's soooo beautiful, and has the feel of a European city (at least, Old Montreal does). You don't have to be able to speak French to get along fine there at all (although it can help). Definitely give T.O. a miss. It sucks.

[Raikas]

Totally agree on the the experience, but Montreal will be tougher for her on the job front, don't you think?

Definitely give T.O. a miss. It sucks.

Harsh! Why do you feel that way?

I've never been to Eastern Canada but I just loooove my home city. I never want to live anywhere else. Vancouver will always be my home.

If you've never even visited Halifax or Montreal or Toronto how do you know you wouldn't love those places too? Seriously, before I moved out west I never would have imagined that I'd have loved it as much as I did - I think every city has it's own selling features, sometimes you just need to live there to find them!

[Horsedog]

Totally agree on the the experience, but Montreal will be tougher for her on the job front, don't you think?

Harsh! Why do you feel that way?

I'm not sure, honestly, what Montreal would be like on the job front. Of all the cities in Canada, I'd think Vancouver would be #1 for media work (at least in the context of film, like Cutebug mentioned), but T.O. and Montreal would definitely be up there as well. Montreal's a media centre in the context of music and film, on par with T.O.

"Sucks" is perhaps too harsh...at least, if I apply it broadly There are definitely some very nice areas and lots of fun things to do. Kensington Market, the distillery district, the festivals (like Caribana and Pride) are all awesome. But...it's also gritty, smelly, smoggy, and poorly-managed in terms of making the most of the natural resources available. All large cities are going to have rough patches, but (to me) Toronto's rough patches outweigh/overshadow the good.

[Raikas]

I'm not sure, honestly, what Montreal would be like on the job front. Of all the cities in Canada, I'd think Vancouver would be #1 for media work (at least in the context of film, like Cutebug mentioned), but T.O. and Montreal would definitely be up there as well. Montreal's a media centre in the context of music and film, on par with T.O.

True, but's it's the home of the Francophone media primarily - and the employment situation in general is harsher than Van or T.O. so it's a little less straightforward. To be fair, it's been 10 years since I worked in the industry, but talking to friends who are still in it there's a lot of migratory behaviour/temporary relocations that go on more than being based in any one city. My impression is that there's more high-paid contract (generally US film) work in Vancouver and more steady TV work in Toronto.

But...it's also gritty, smelly, smoggy, and poorly-managed in terms of making the most of the natural resources available. All large cities are going to have rough patches, but (to me) Toronto's rough patches outweigh/overshadow the good.

Huh, that hasn't been my experience at all. Out of curiosity, which cities are you using as a comparison?

The "smelly" part in particular - within Canada, I've lived in Toronto (both Scarborough and Downtown), Calgary, and just outside of Hamilton for 3+ years each and have spent the equivalent of a year (non-consecutively) in both Halifax and just outside of Vancouver, and honestly Calgary is the only one of those that never smells (and that's just because it's so dry). Any city with humidity stinks, IME.

[LessJos]

I moved from Europe to Alberta and I am right at home here! Love at first sight! I traveled all over Canada (bigger cities at least) but nothing compared to the beauty and people of Alberta.

If you are coming from UK and want to escape rain and grey skies, you are going to love Alberta. While it does get cold and snowy in winter, we have over 320 days of sun on average. Very dry climate too which is different to Europe. Dry warm summers, no humidity and winter is so much more enjoyable since the cold doesn't creep into your bones.

Also the amount of space you have here is truly mind boggling for a European.

Economy is great here and I think probably your best bet to find a job.

I forgot to add:

Outdoorsy and skiing? Well, Calgary it is. You can even ski/board in the city! And big ski resorts in the Rockies are only 1 hr away.

[Horsedog]

True, but's it's the home of the Francophone media primarily - and the employment situation in general is harsher than Van or T.O. so it's a little less straightforward. To be fair, it's been 10 years since I worked in the industry, but talking to friends who are still in it there's a lot of migratory behaviour/temporary relocations that go on more than being based in any one city. My impression is that there's more high-paid contract (generally US film) work in Vancouver and more steady TV work in Toronto.

Huh, that hasn't been my experience at all. Out of curiosity, which cities are you using as a comparison?

The "smelly" part in particular - within Canada, I've lived in Toronto (both Scarborough and Downtown), Calgary, and just outside of Hamilton for 3+ years each and have spent the equivalent of a year (non-consecutively) in both Halifax and just outside of Vancouver, and honestly Calgary is the only one of those that never smells (and that's just because it's so dry). Any city with humidity stinks, IME.

I shall defer to your more-informed judgement on the job market in Montreal

Chicago, Syndey, San Fran, Montreal, Stockholm - all cities that I've spent considerable time in but never had the same "yuck" sense that I get from Toronto. Course, I live near Hamilton...now THAT is a smelly city . I have heard from friends who frequent the place that Halifax is the bomb, but I wouldn't advise it purely on the premise that work would be harder to come by than other urban centres in Canada.

Like I said, all cities have their yuck factors, some more than others. I speak purely from my own experiences and perceptions (as do we all).

In the end, no matter what location one chooses, one's mindset and attitude are going to make that city/town/village a good place to call home. Good luck on the move, Spongela!!

[LessJos]

So from what my British friend has told me, it's basically the UK only slightly colder.

Not sure where your British friend is from but in my experience UK and Alberta could be two different planets!!!

Nothing is even remotely similar!

On the movies industry aspect, don't forget Calgary is huge in the business too. Lots of movies and TV shows are filmed here. I always though I want to move to Montana or Wyoming until I found out that all those movies are filmed here instead. Including "Legends of the fall" which was literally filmed behind our house. The battle field is the pasture just west of us and part of the ranch we live on. We still use sandbags they had for the trenches on set :-)

Added:

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThFCg0tBDck

[Raikas]

Not sure where your British friend is from but in my experience UK and Alberta could be two different planets!!!

Nothing is even remotely similar!

I think they must have meant Vancouver there - I remember coming back to Alberta from visiting my in-laws in the UK at Christmas a few years ago - it was 10°C in London and -20°C in Calgary, but it felt so much warmer in Calgary because of the total lack of humidity.

Chicago, Syndey, San Fran, Montreal, Stockholm - all cities that I've spent considerable time in but never had the same "yuck" sense that I get from Toronto. Course, I live near Hamilton...now THAT is a smelly city .

LOL, I'm totally with you on Hamilton. That's really interesting about Chicago though, because I've always though that Chicago and Toronto are about as similar as two cities can get - basic national differences aside - where did you live when you were in Toronto and Chicago (to be fair, I haven't lived in Chicago - I have family there, so I used to spend a couple of weeks a year there for while, but I know that's not the same thing)? It's so funny that we'd arrive at opposite places on those two, so I wonder if we were living in the opposite sides of town!

And if we're making international comparisons, I'd have to talk about Chennai (I taught there a few years ago) - no auto emission limitations, free roaming cattle, +80% humidity and +40°C all the time. No city in Canada (or the Northern US or Northern Europe) can come anywhere close!

In the end, no matter what location one chooses, one's mindset and attitude are going to make that city/town/village a good place to call home. Good luck on the move, Spongela!!

Totally.

Spongela, I'm sure you'll have fun in whichever city you choose!

[Horsedog]

LOL, I'm totally with you on Hamilton. That's really interesting about Chicago though, because I've always though that Chicago and Toronto are about as similar as two cities can get - basic national differences aside - where did you live when you were in Toronto and Chicago (to be fair, I haven't lived in Chicago - I have family there, so I used to spend a couple of weeks a year there for while, but I know that's not the same thing)? It's so funny that we'd arrive at opposite places on those two, so I wonder if we were living in the opposite sides of town!

That's actually why I make the comparison - cause Chicago and Toronto are very similar in so many ways. Chicago's just...I dunno...cleaner feeling. Also, I like the buildings better there ;P. Sydney's actually much the same - much like Toronto, but cleaner and have made MUCH better use of the waterfront/natural resources available to them.

[Raikas]

That's actually why I make the comparison - cause Chicago and Toronto are very similar in so many ways. Chicago's just...I dunno...cleaner feeling. Also, I like the buildings better there ;P.

Heh, we really are on opposite sides of that one! Funny!

Actually, since we're talking cities of similar size, I'm thinking that the size thing may be that's another thing to mention in the Toronto vs. Vancouver comparison. The "proper" city of Vancouver is actually quite small - a third of the size of Toronto or Montreal, and with a much higher relative percentage of the population living in the metro area rather than the city. Which could be a pro or con for each city depending on one's preferences (I work for a Burnaby-based company and I always listen to those commute stories from the Lower Mainland with horror - OTOH, lots of them work eastern hours and so get off work at 2pm, which is a useful thing!).

[aj_rock]

See, I've visited Chicago and I found it MUCH worse than Toronto air quality wise.

You guys are being a bit unfair to Hamilton as well. The core is downright shite, but visit Binbrook, Dundas, Ancaster, Stoney Creek, and you'll get lots of interesting landscape (google the devil's punch bowl. I'll wait.) Most of the people I know in Hamilton only go downtown for night life and football games: Less than half of the population lives in the "urban central".

[Raikas]

You guys are being a bit unfair to Hamilton as well. The core is downright shite, but visit Binbrook, Dundas, Ancaster, Stoney Creek, and you'll get lots of interesting landscape (google the devil's punch bowl. I'll wait.) Most of the people I know in Hamilton only go downtown for night life and football games: Less than half of the population lives in the "urban central".

I think that's actually the point - if you're looking for urban living, you want an actual urban core. And if you're not, then you're going to those outlying areas for themselves, not because they're part of the Hamilton area.

My husband works in Nanticoke, and a huge number of his colleagues live in either Ancaster or Stoney Creek - and that's great, if you're looking for suburban sprawl, but if you're hoping for a place where (cultural) things actually happen then it's a frustrating place to live. In general, the people who relocated from Sarnia/Fort McMurray/anywhere in the north love it, but the people who relocated from Toronto/Calgary/Edmonton are bored out of their minds. We're in Burlington, and while I spent the first six months convinced that it was suburban hell, it actually does have more happening than most cities of similar size, so over these past 2.5 years it's won me over (but we're only expecting to be here for another year - I honestly wouldn't want to live here long-term).

[Shortkaik]

My initial instinct was to chiime in with OTTAWA!! But, you know what, it's probably not what you're looking for. I love this city, it's beautiful, has lots of amazing trails and bike paths and museums - but it really lacks when it comes to doing fun, adventurey or nightlife things. There's a lot of high tech and government work in Ottawa. It's a nice place for a family, and despite the two large universities, it doesn't really have a "university town" feel.

I'm not a fan of Toronto, but most people I know love it. There's lots of culture there, and the nice thing with staying in Toronto while you are temporarily in Canada is there's lots of stuff to visit in the area! In less than a day's drive, you can visit Ottawa, Montreal, Niagara Falls, or even New York. There's a larger range of places to go and things to do in Ontario/Quebec than in BC, from what I know.

But of course, there's a lot to be said for the beauty of Vancouver! It's just a bit more isolated.

[Underling]

Just don't drive to Vancouver from the East, unless you really like your ears popping and want to look at mountains for 12 hours. They're pretty, but...popping ears.

I'm being such a downer about all the provinces, heh. Maybe it's because Edmonton is just so boring compared to everywhere else.

I think it's just a natural response for anyone from Western Canada to instantly warn people to stay away from Toronto; to us it's like the mythical land of Mordor or something. I like reading all the different opinions of different places in this thread, heh.

[Raikas]

Just don't drive to Vancouver from the East, unless you really like your ears popping and want to look at mountains for 12 hours. They're pretty, but...popping ears.

LOL - I was actually going to say that one thing that's worth doing at least once for the stunning views is doing the drive between Canmore and Vancouver!