On being a woman and fighting back [trigger warning]

[Unda]

First things first, this entire thread and the things that I've linked within my post comes with trigger warnings, in other words if something is likely to upset you I'm warning you now that you may want to not read this. I realise that simply statistically speaking this is likely to be a bit too close to home for a number of you and for that I'm sorry.

I was orignally going to just post this in the women's guild but since that implies that this doesn't affect any men (which isn't true) and implies than men couldn't have anything to contribute to the discussion (also not true) I decided not to. This is kind of a difficult thread to write, I read something this morning about a thread on reddit which invited rapists to actually explain themselves, some did. The whole thread is horrifying and eye opening at the same time. If you want to read the original article that sent me towards this the link is here: http://jezebel.com/5929544/rapists-explain-themselves-on-reddit-and-we-should-listen

The thread itself is linked within that but the part that really got me starts about here: http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x6yef/reddits_had_a_few_threads_about_sexual_assault/c5jrsga

The thread as a whole can get very victim-blaming in parts which is something that I have no tolerance for, I think also a lot of these rapists excuses are absolutely impossible to swallow. But the thread as a whole raises a number of really interesting things, first of all that not saying no doesn't mean yes and that instead of teaching "no means no" to kids in sex ed they should be teaching "yes means yes".

A lot of these attacks seem to have started because the rapists assumed that because the girl had fallen mute all was okay. The second thing that really got me was the fact that a lot of these guys pointed out that the women that they had assaulted or raped literally could do nothing to stop them, and as far as I read none of them physically did, no one broke anyone's nose or fought. I definitely do not want to victim blame here, I'm not saying that these women should have fought and tried to stop their attackers and imply something terrible like "well, if she didn't fight then of course it happened" because, no, not cool. There was debate as well on whether or not you should fight off an attacker at all, whether it's better to just play dead almost and let it happen - the "don't turn rape into a murder" school of thought or the people who say savage them like you want to kill them.

I've personally always been taught by my father to fight. I've been taught to kick and punch and bite and do WHATEVER I can to either stop my attacker or to escape. I suppose you could say that it's a family school of thought. Two guys tried to rape my aunt and she stabbed one to death with a tail pin comb and grievously wounded the other. I've been taught to fight like they mean to kill you, so I've assumed, obviously, that it's possible for me and pretty much any other woman to do so and to win if they got lucky.

It was then pointed out by these guys that women simply can't fight men off.

I'll quote for those of your who don't want to go into the thread:

I want to comment to your "how much stronger guys are" remark. I wish more girls would realize this. I had a friend who put herself in stupid situations quite regularly, but felt like she could take care of herself if she had too. Typical 130ish pound girl. I was a 240 or so and 6'2".

One night, I decided to open her eyes a bit. The topic came up again one way or another, and she was talking about her self defense class. I said, if a good chunk of guys wanted, they could do whatever they wanted to you and you couldn't stop it. She disagreed, I said, "we'll see" and quickly grabbed her and pressed her against a wall. Since I had so much longer reach and much more strength I could hold her there no problem. Initially there was quite a bit of panic on her face, she clawed at my arm a bit and tried to kick but I just let her. After the moment of panic I just said, "now imagine I wanted to hurt you."

The lesson really sunk in for her, I just wish there was an easier way to teach it that every girl who is putting themselves out there could understand. Men willing to rape you are predators, you are prey. Most of them will not have trouble doing what they want if they have the opportunity. I wish there were some way to know who to trust for certain but there isn't, so all you can do is be aware of your weaknesses and minimize risk.

and:

As a girl who watched mainly Xena and DarkAngel and the like, and played footy and went to the gym, I really used to believe that I could hold my own in a fight. I used to wrestle with my guy friends and found that it was fairly even.

It wasn't until play fighting with my current partner that I realised that my guy friends were always pulling their punches etc.

I CAN'T hold my own in a fight, I would be easy to rape. More females need to realise this.

This thread then got onto the idea of how pretty much all men are stronger than pretty much all women, excluding the very weak men and the very strong women. Now, I really don't know what to think about this. I'm in two minds here, on the one hand I am athletic and strong and at 5 foot 6 and 165lbs I'm neither small nor light and my dad who's ex-army gave me a tonne of self defence training, but I'm worried as to whether or not I'm actually strong enough to protect myself in a fight or whether I just THINK I am.

I used to play fight with my hubby when we were in self defence class together when we were younger, before we even started dating. And one thing that stands out to me about that is that one time when I was trying to throw him off of me (we were practicing floor moves to get an attacker off of you) I did the move that the teacher had shown us. I tried to throw him off, he resisted and used all his strength to hold me down and in trying to force him off of me I tore my rotator cuff in half that's how much stronger than me he was, how much bigger than me, how much heavier than me. I'm not sure that I want to play fight with him to test this out in case the same or worse happens again, besides, he was so guilt ridden from being a part of that last time that I'm not sure I could put him in that position again.

So, my fellow rebels. Am I overreacting? Can your average female rebel who isn't (or even is) trained in martial arts fight off a determined attacker? How do the rest of the female rebels feel when they're walking down the street at night? Do you feel like you could fight or escape?

[Librarian of Doom]

I think it depends on various factors. Right now, I don't think I could win in an even/fair fight; your average guy would be stronger than me. If I could avoid being grappled, I could probably use an improvised weapon like your aunt did, and maybe get away.

As an aside, I never used to be fearful of rape; I would walk around by myself after dark no problem. Now part of this was living in a relatively low-crime town, but another part of it was that I saw myself as so fundamentally unattractive, I couldn't believe any guy would want to rape me. Now that I have better body image, it's a bigger fear. Not attempting to hijack the thread, just something that I realized as a result of reading this post.

[Ian]

Sure you can. Be faster than he is. Stab the f*cker.

[Kristen]

I used to play that game--that I could hold my own, I could fight back, I'm smarter than that, I wouldn't put myself into a dangerous situation, and most of all, that I won't buy into the fear that women are weak and we need to be protected by big strong men. I thought it was just another game of the patriarchy trying to keep us down by creating a false fear.

Until I realized that no, I couldn't probably protect myself if I had to, save running away, maybe. I'm at my biggest at fittest right now, a whole 125 pounds. I couldn't take down or hold off a guy my size, much less one bigger.

I still won't allow the idea to keep me living in some state of fear, but I have since realized that there are some things I can do. Being prepared to fight is not one of them. Avoiding situations where there's free flowing alcohol, machismo, sticking with people I trust, and trusting my gut are things I can control.

The military is going through a period of realization how huge of a problem sexual assault is--in general, but specifically it's much worse in the military--and providing all kinds of training as a result. Every month it seems there's some kind of awareness program that we're required to attend. It sucks to have it in your face constantly like that, but the message is good--only yes means yes, and nothing else means yes. And, unfortunately, there are a LOT of people who need to hear that message, and to take it seriously.

[Centurion]

The hard truth is that realistically in a streetfight/assault situation the bigger you are the better. There's a reason professional fighters have weight classes, no matter how good you are you will always be at a huge disadvantage against someone bigger. There's one girl at my kickboxing club who is considerably more experienced than me, black belt TKD with something like 10 years experience plus another 2 years of kickboxing, and always places high when she competes but I have no problem against her in sparring. It's simply a matter of size, I'm probably half a foot taller than her, so I can keep her at a distance where she is no threat to me with little effort, and almost 20kgs heavier, so if I can hit harder as a result.

A lot of the self defense systems that get thrown around are pretty much useless realistically. It's fairly simple,fight dirty. go for groin shots, eye pokes, throat jabs etc. Even then, thinking for a lot of women being assaulted by someone 100lbs or so heavier is not unrealistic, it only takes one good shot and the tides are turned completely. I always say to anyone the best thing to do in self defense situations is just get out of there and run as fast as you can

[LordOfTime]

Go for the nutshot

[nenia]

Interesting Reddit thread. I used to date this guy who is a hockey player, 5'11 and around 200-210. In play-wrestling, I actually could beat him more than half the time and he was genuinely trying his hardest (he really wasn't the nicest guy). But if it came to taking punches, I don't think I'd stand a chance. I can hit with the best of them (I also know that thanks to the ex -- he challenged me to punch him as hard as I could in the arm and he was very surprised how much it hurt) but I have only been in one fight and I don't think I could take a punch from a man.

Librarian of Doom -- I felt similarly, I live in an incredibly safe, family oriented area of a medium sized Canadian city. Then a friend of a friend was raped outside her house three blocks away. Area doesn't mean anything.

I really don't know the answer here, except for agreeing with Ian that assaulting him back quickly would likely work.

[Unda]

Interesting Reddit thread. I used to date this guy who is a hockey player, 5'11 and around 200-210. In play-wrestling, I actually could beat him more than half the time and he was genuinely trying his hardest (he really wasn't the nicest guy). But if it came to taking punches, I don't think I'd stand a chance. I can hit with the best of them (I also know that thanks to the ex -- he challenged me to punch him as hard as I could in the arm and he was very surprised how much it hurt) but I have only been in one fight and I don't think I could take a punch from a man.

Librarian of Doom -- I felt similarly, I live in an incredibly safe, family oriented area of a medium sized Canadian city. Then a friend of a friend was raped outside her house three blocks away. Area doesn't mean anything.

I really don't know the answer here, except for agreeing with Ian that assaulting him back quickly would likely work.

What do you think about the idea that a lot of the women in that thread were throwing about, that fighting back and fighting dirty was more likely to get you killed than save your life? I'd entirely rather be alive than raped, but equally I'd rather be raped than dead. Do you think it's more likely to instigate violence back in response or do you think that we're the same as other animals, that if something you're attacking fights back too much you back off and leave?

On the one hand seeing as most rapes and sexual assaults are not committed by strangers I'd say fight back, your drunk friend isn't likely to kill you (hopefully). Either way, escape is the aim.

Hah, that said my dad and I were training in self defence and he taught me how to flip a guy. He then informed me that training was no good if not used as a reflex, then proceeded to startle me over and over for the few days until my instinct was to attack back. I also discovered that I can flip a guy with half a foot and two stone on me over my head and onto the floor in front of me. His response was "very good, now you'd jump on his ankles and break them so that he CAN'T chase you when you run away. ...don't practice that on me."

[nenia]

What do you think about the idea that a lot of the women in that thread were throwing about, that fighting back and fighting dirty was more likely to get you killed than save your life? I'd entirely rather be alive than raped, but equally I'd rather be raped than dead. Do you think it's more likely to instigate violence back in response or do you think that we're the same as other animals, that if something you're attacking fights back too much you back off and leave?

On the one hand seeing as most rapes and sexual assaults are not committed by strangers I'd say fight back, your drunk friend isn't likely to kill you (hopefully). Either way, escape is the aim.

I think that varies by situation. If someone has a knife to your throat (or other weapon, much more common in stranger attacks), then I honestly would probably just do what they said to get it over with. But any other situation, or if in the previous one you had a moment of opportunity.. I say, take it. Although you and I are probably in a different position to say that than a girl who is 5'0 and 110 pounds, or even just a girl who has no upper body strength whatsoever. Or someone who isn't confident in their abilities in a fight. Thank god nothing like this has happened to me, but some of my ex's friends would get a little too handsy and I did actually end up punching one guy in the head because he wouldn't stop. I, like you, am completely comfortable getting physical if I feel threatened and I think that makes a big difference.

Hah, that said my dad and I were training in self defence and he taught me how to flip a guy. He then informed me that training was no good if not used as a reflex, then proceeded to startle me over and over for the few days until my instinct was to attack back. I also discovered that I can flip a guy with half a foot and two stone on me over my head and onto the floor in front of me. His response was "very good, now you'd jump on his ankles and break them so that he CAN'T chase you when you run away. ...don't practice that on me."

hahaha!

[Atalan]

As a guy, I've been disturbed by the physical power available to me over the physical power available to a woman. It doesn't strike me as fair.

[wildross]

First, I think you've done a great job bringing up the subject and framing it nicely.

Secondly as to man vs woman strength. Most men's ability to dish out and take physical punishment (as in punches, etc, not talking about the whole pain tolerance/child birth thing) is much greater than most women's, especially when angry. I've put my fist through walls, and doors and taken doors off hinges without really trying that hard and without any training. I also seldom notice cuts/bruises, etc until much later. Unfortunately, I think there is a 'beast' lurking under the veneer of civility with most of us males.

Thirdly, so much is situational. Is he a drunk friend who is out of control? A stranger accosting you? Is there a group? Were you able to prepare yourself at all? What is your evaluation of his intent (as in how far is he willing to go)? What is his reaction to your resistance (if he instinctively blocked your punch/kick he's probably thought things out/had training himself). I think we all react more effectively if we've thought out or play acted scenarios before hand (like with your dad). Self defence training helps, but even with technique, as others have noted there will be a limited window when that is effective/useful. If you can act reflexively, it will help. Though you may end up needing to apologize, or lose some friends, in this case, "over reacting" may be a good thing. And remember that not all resistance has to be physical. If it is an acquaintance (or soon to be exfriend) can you say things to change his mind/break his focus?

From my limited look at self defence classes, I like the Krav Maga philosophy; put the other guy out of commission as quickly as possible and get away.

[katscratch]

Great thread, a lot to think on. I've always been a complete wimp so never had the hint of illusion that i could outmuscle a guy. Listening to my gut has been my best defensive strategy, especially in college when watching my girlfriends' backs at frat parties, and at bar close walking to my bike downtown.

I think on the question of fight-and-incur-worse-injury vs give in, if weapons were involved I don't think I'd ever try to fight even if I had that instinct (I absolutely don't, I am a freeze-and-ignore-it-until-it-goes-away-whilst-my-mind-is-racing kind of adrenaline responder). I think the situation would make a difference, i.e. drunk acquantaince vs. in home assault.

Atalan, you reminded me of this-- On the complete opposite side, I was talking with my 6'4" 138kg wall-of-muscle friend about sex/connection/relationships, and i mentioned that point where you lose all inhibition and vulnerability and just get crazy, losing yourself in the moment-- he brought up that he's never had that, because even though he and his girl have amazing fireworks, the times he's come even slightly close to what his body can do physically he overpowers her. I'd never considered it from a man's perspective, and it makes me sad that even with her he has to hold back or pull himself out of the moment.

[Avalon]

... put the other guy out of commission as quickly as possible and get away.

^ This.

This is pretty much THE ONLY reason I enjoy my height/weight (6'0"/200lbs) as a woman. Most men take one look at me and think "nope, too much work". In my travels I've learned that the best way to avoid being accosted is to just NOT look like a target: be aware of your surroundings, be looking around you, be with a group, be in a well-trafficked area, don't carry a big gaudy bag/umbrella/jewelry/etc. If you can avoid having a stranger even consider you, then you avoid the situation altogether. Also, NEVER carry a weapon you are not INCREDIBLY PROFICIENT in using. Not a knife, a gun, nothing but maybe a can of mace and even then, I'd think about leaving that at home. Weapons make you feel safe - you do NOT want to feel safe. Feeling safe, as my dad used to say, makes you stupid.

With friends or acquaintances, the situation is different, mostly because you'll be willing to put yourself into situations where there's a greater chance of something happening because you already trust that person. And you should, that's what friends are - people we trust. I've never been in that situation, and the only thing I can think to do if one of my friends over-powered me was to do as has been suggested above: fight back and fight dirty, get away as quickly as possible.

[BeckyBuckeye]

I haven't researched it, but I think statistics would be on the side of fighting back, especially if there's any hope of attracting assistance with your screams, while fighting. If I was somewhere isolated in the woods, with a knife to my throat, I would be less likely to fight. Until such time as I saw a prime opportunity to win. Because if you're alone in the woods with a knife at your throat, he's probably not going to go let you go afterwards.

Agreed here. In my self defense class, we were taught to yell "NO" as loud and low as possible. It attracts more attention than screams and makes it clear that what is happening is not ok. In some cases at least, if you're making a fuss, you won't be worth the effort.

In a stranger attack, I'd fight back physically because they probably don't have the personal reservations, whereas a friend I could try to snap out of it by yelling or whatever.

This reminds me of the story of the woman who was physically assaulted at Dupont Circle in D.C. (nice area) and the discussion afterwards about how women unconsciously change their behavior when men wouldn't even think about it. Things like walking down busier streets even if smaller streets are closer and knowing who is around you at all times.

[SirEarl]

First off, I would like to say that size isn't everything. I have been attacked by multiple people, all who were at least 50lbs bigger than me, and come out OK. Granted, I have devoted a huge chunk of my life to the practical application of martial arts after years of being bullied, so that gave me a huge advantage. Second, it is largely dependent upon the fight or flight response. Some people may be more sensitive to personal proximity, thus triggering the fight or flight response earlier.

Third....this Quite possibly one of the greatest ideas ever.

As far as fighting back goes, do whatever. If you make the decision to fight back...FIGHT back. Not just kicking and screaming. Start biting/gnawing. Scratch/gouge the eyes. Slap the ears. Chop/punch the throat. Knee/kick the crotch. This guy wants to hurt you, so hurt him first.

I am for self-defense classes existing. However, I am NOT for self-defense classes. Most of these classes teach you a few tricks, but do not effectively drill it into your head. When somebody is choking you, they're not going to let you just slap their hands away, take a step back, and let you kick them. I think self-defense classes should be as brutal as a boxer/cage fighters training. If you're going to yell no or fire or rape, you may as well get primal and start yelling while you attack back.

[Raincloak]

The best way to win a fight is not to get into one in the first place. (So say all the Eastern martial arts masters, and they're quite right.) Best is to avoid situations that demand physical violence, and second best is to find other ways out of said situations (summoning help, shaming the attacker into backing off, etc.) It might be better, for instance, to study diplomacy and carry a signal whistle instead of a weapon.

The sad truth is, you can't stop a really determined attacker... but you can convince him to pick on some other, easier target. Make lots of noise, move to a lighted area, or walk with company, and they'll probably leave you alone. If they're armed or on drugs, they might press forward anyway, but in that case no amount of martial arts is likely to help you. Violence is the last resort of sane people for a reason: it's dangerous to all parties, and it doesn't always work.

It should be noted that most rapists don't actually care to use force. Most sexual assaults happen between people who know each other, the victim trusts the attacker and often depends on him, and the attacker uses coercion of some sort; social status, job rank, money, blackmail, emotional control, threats or promises. The chances of ever being in a situation where violence could truly protect you from rape are pretty small.

So I don't count on martial arts or weapons to keep me safe. I count on my brain to keep me out of situations where weapons would be necessary. I have studied a few self-defense techniques as backup (and by the way, they advised going for the eyes, throat and knees, not the groin), but I hope never to need them. If I do need them, I'm already in big trouble; at that point I would cry for help, flee, or try to talk my way out. If I couldn't talk the attacker into backing off, I would play along and try to convince him to get in a vulnerable position. Then I'd strike back, and run like hell.

If all else failed, and I mean ALL else... I'd put up with the assault and gather evidence to give to the police. I'd get justice, oh yes I would.

[WarriorAmy]

Gosh, thoughtful thread. I guess I've never entertained the idea of having to fight someone off- I remember reading a book when I was a teen about protecting yourself in these situations, and the advice was a) Try not to get in situations where you could be in trouble and Talk- either yell something like 'Fire' to attract attention, or say something along the lines of 'I have an STD', or 'I'm on my period'- whatever you think might turn your attacker off.

I'd also probably instinctively fight back. I'm short and not THAT strong, so I think I'd loose. And that's where I don't want to think about it anymore.

[realbrickwall]

One issue with fighting back is that you need to be willing to do harm. Most people have been properly socialized to not actually want to hurt other people, so when it comes time to fight, they don't give it their all, even if they should. If someone is trying to hurt you, and you just try to push and slap and hit, then yes, their physical strength will give them victory. But if you go for eye gouges, bites (fun fact: human flesh is no harder to bite through than most food if you actually try), genital shots, and that sort of thing, you've got a much better chance.

Yes, I'm basically repeating SirEarl here, but it's true. People are built to easily withstand non-lethal fighting. So be lethal.

Note: Sexual assault is an exception to a general rule. In MOST situations, you should NOT ESCALATE violence. If someone is smacking you a bit, DO NOT use crippling/lethal attacks. This is not only immoral, but it is also illegal. It is not self-defense, it is assault that just happens to be provoked by lesser assault.

[caithnard]

As a short female who walks home alone late many nights, I think about this a lot.

I guess the first thing is avoiding the situation in the first place. Being smart, sticking with a friend, etc. As a college student, my highest risk area is at parties and very similar situations to the ones talked about in the reddit subthread, where alcohol is involved and chances are you know the person who is raping you.

A really common form of self defense here is pepper spray, which is one way to even the odds. My friends that waitress in a shadier side of town said that the knowledge that the restaurant managers are actually giving their wait staff pepper spray has reduced crime (though it was muggings, in this case). I have a lot of friends that carry knives (for work) and think that makes them protected...but it doesn't. They severely underestimate the difficulty of fighting with a knife effectively. It's also a really stupid thing to do (especially for crime that already has an element of violence, like a mugging) because you don't know what weapon the other person has or how good they are at using it.

Back to rape. The chilling thing about the examples given in this post is that many of the girls didn't realize they were being raped. Rape is about dominance. In many of these cases, the woman weren't speaking out--that, alone, is a lot. Alcohol is involved in a lot of cases of rape in college, there's a lot of cases where the guy is assuming that consent is implied, when it hasn't been given. Most guys aren't monsters, and strong verbal cues alone could be enough.

If it escalates to physical violence, I think your best chance is to put up enough of a fight to prove it isn't worth it, that there are easier girls. Again, your chances of actually successfully beating off your attacker are slim, but if you can get out of the situation (e.g. throw him off of you) long enough to demonstrate that you know 100% that this is non-consensual, that you will press charges, that you have your cell and will call for help, etc you can hopefully, as Raincloak said "convince him to pick on some other, easier target"

[SusieBlu]

I am with Athena on this. Most women have been taught from an early age to act differently than men. A guy wouldn't think twice about taking a short cut down a dark alley alone. Maybe it is time everyone takes responsibility for their actions. I should be able to walk naked down the street without worrying I will be raped.

*back to reality*

Unfortunately, in the real world that is a ways off. Being smart is the best way to protect yourself. Don't put yourself in a situation that you don't have control. This goes for men and women.

[Atalan]

As far as fighting back goes, do whatever. If you make the decision to fight back...FIGHT back. Not just kicking and screaming. Start biting/gnawing. Scratch/gouge the eyes. Slap the ears. Chop/punch the throat. Knee/kick the crotch. This guy wants to hurt you, so hurt him first.

I am for self-defense classes existing. However, I am NOT for self-defense classes. Most of these classes teach you a few tricks, but do not effectively drill it into your head. When somebody is choking you, they're not going to let you just slap their hands away, take a step back, and let you kick them. I think self-defense classes should be as brutal as a boxer/cage fighters training. If you're going to yell no or fire or rape, you may as well get primal and start yelling while you attack back.

On this topic, I think the best idea is to fight like a chimpanzee. Destroy face, groin, throat, feet, and hands.

Now, the actual topics brought up aren't addressing being raped by jumping into a dark alley. It is addressing cases of over-training of 'no means no' leading to 'anything else means yes'. So basically, for us guys, we need to make sure that before we take any step further, we have consent, and not assuming that silence is consent.

[wildross]

Atalan, you reminded me of this-- On the complete opposite side, I was talking with my 6'4" 138kg wall-of-muscle friend about sex/connection/relationships, and i mentioned that point where you lose all inhibition and vulnerability and just get crazy, losing yourself in the moment-- he brought up that he's never had that, because even though he and his girl have amazing fireworks, the times he's come even slightly close to what his body can do physically he overpowers her. I'd never considered it from a man's perspective, and it makes me sad that even with her he has to hold back or pull himself out of the moment.

This is true of me almost all the time. I think it is one thing that appeals to me about weight lifting. I don't have to hold back.

[Atalan]

Atalan, you reminded me of this-- On the complete opposite side, I was talking with my 6'4" 138kg wall-of-muscle friend about sex/connection/relationships, and i mentioned that point where you lose all inhibition and vulnerability and just get crazy, losing yourself in the moment-- he brought up that he's never had that, because even though he and his girl have amazing fireworks, the times he's come even slightly close to what his body can do physically he overpowers her. I'd never considered it from a man's perspective, and it makes me sad that even with her he has to hold back or pull himself out of the moment.

I've had that moment. It came from anger, not pleasure, and is not a place I ever want to be again.

But as for the not holding back, that is one of the reasons I like the LARP I do. It's full contact and the weapons are padded until only the strongest using them can make them unsafe for a full force swing.

[Jcannon98188]

I see "fair fight/clean fight" thrown around a lot. If someone is trying to hurt/rape you, then screw manners or honor. Go for a nut shot and run. If that doesn't work, try and gouge out their eyes. If you are able to, get behind their arm when it is outstretched (obviously this requires you to move their arm) and hold their wrist with one hand. and palm strike their elbow, potentially breaking their arm. If you get them on the ground, don't be afraid to kick them in the head a few times, or injure them in anyway. I generally am a pacifist, and I believe in not hurting others, but it is like the dalai lama said: “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”

[azsf]

@athena i like the cut of your jib!

if i can offer my own experiences in fights; in most situations, deescalation is the way to go. there's usually enough warning that a situation has turned hostile that you can get away before anything actually happens. if you do need to fight to defend someone else or your property, have a back up strategy: confront and stall your assailant while a friend calls the cops / more friends for support. im totally against all the savage fighting stuff, and when i have had to hit back i've found distancing and control to be more effective. then again, i'm 6' 7" and not very pretty, and i've never had someone try to physically rape me. if someone did, i have no idea what i could or would do.

That's physical sexual assault tho, as in being held down and attacked. The other side (from the article):

Rapists don't feel remorse. Rapists prey on pure girls, not sluts who show cleavage and want to fool around. Some even say that straight up; "I didn't want to be the kind of guy who pressured girls, so I said it was fine [when she asked if she could stop performing oral sex]," says a man who had literally just pressured a girl who had "always been quite flirty" to go down on him.

Has happened to me a fair few times. I don't have a high libido, but i like to flirt and make lewd jokes. throw in alcohol, low self esteem and an emotionally manipulative person, and you end up being coerced to do a lot of stuff you don't want to. it's horrible, and it leaves you feeling like shit. and as a guy, most people will just assume you wanted it, if not instigated it in the first place. be honest, how many people read that first sentence and thought i was the rapist?