On being a woman and fighting back [trigger warning]

[Raikas]

It's one of the reasons I think it's so very important to have zero tolerance for lesser infractions and to seek help if you're in such a situation. It's certainly not a foolproof plan, but I still think that at the end of the day your best hope for minimizing (not eliminating) risk involves awareness. Preparation is part of that.

I totally agree with you on that. I hope I'm not coming off as overly negative here - I'm all in favour of staying aware, being cautious and carrying yourself in as intimidating way as possible.

I just had my eyes opened when I was doing volunteer work at a rape crisis centre a few years ago - I'd always heard the statistics about stranger vs. known assaults, but it was the anecdotal stuff that came from hearing actual personal stories really changed the way I think about rape and rape prevention. In three years the stories I heard were about half women (often at very young ages, so girls really) being victimized by older cousins, uncles and stepfathers and half date-rape situations, with the occasional medical professional throw in as well. The attack by a stranger honestly only came up once (twice if I'm counting a presentation). It totally changed my mind about how much of prevention is being tough and in control and how much is just being lucky enough to have decent family/friends/doctors.

[rtalencar]

It totally changed my mind about how much of prevention is being tough and in control and how much is just being lucky enough to have decent family/friends/doctors.

I don't think it's right that people can get stuck in circumstances like you describe, and in some cases things are truly unavoidable, but I do think in some cases there are resources available to help get people out of those situations. It's not easy and it certainly isn't fair (and, of course, in some cases obtaining that aid is impossible), but trying to get those sorts of things are part of what I'm trying to talk about. Finding a way to get yourself out of that situation if, heaven forbid, it's already happened, is extremely important.

I think you and I are ultimately on the same page; we just have slightly different spins. I don't think you're coming off as overly negative, if anything I think my tone is overly proactive or aggressive for action plans. It provides different perspective on a very complicated issue though which is a good thing.

[faerywethyr]

This is a fascinating discussion and I am really appreciating all the different perspectives people bring. I was a probation officer for 5 years so I got to sit across the desk and chat with the folks who were convicted of sexual assaults and such. I learned sexual assault is generally not just black and white but with a whole spectrum of grey in the middle. I can empathize with the sentiment that we should be able to feel completely safe where ever we are and whatever we do. Unfortunately, I am an extreme realist. In the past humans were expected to protect themselves from the elements and wild beasties now we only have one predator left, each other.

Some other folks touched on the concept of the will to survive in lethal situations. A persons determination to live, to survive, to come out alive no matter what has as much affect on the outcome of a situation as ability and circumstance.

I have little patience for people who wander into victimizing situations. Guess what the world and other people can be brutal, cruel, and ugly. Use the brain God gave you. It will keep you alive and unharmed far more effectively then all your training and muscles. Drinking or using drugs to the point of black or impairment is just stupid. Understand what it truly means to trust a person and why. Don't assume you can trust casual friends or acquaintances.

Man up and be responsible for your words and your image. If you speak sexually and act sexually don't be surprised when people treat you sexually.

Lastly, my own pet peeve. I detest the media/cultural idea that all men are welcoming of sexual attention/touching. Men put up with sexual comments, touching, etc that if reversed and a female was the recipient would be considered harassment or molesting.

[Underling]

I like that idea that the only predators people have now is other people...it's shockingly true. And it's true that not all men welcome harassment, and I'm willing to bet that many men (AND WOMEN) who even joke along are just going along with it so they don't become "that guy/girl." It's morbidly amusing how 'societal norms' isolate so many, and make so many uncomfortable.

Back to the topic at hand, I have a story a friend of mine told me that cheered me up; maybe it'll cheer up some people here. He is Croatian, and he was telling me that the Croatian bar scene is some serious crap. His ex-military cousin (I can't remember his name) goes to bars/clubs decked out in a suit, and in the words of my friend, "You don't f*k with someone wearing a suit at a bar."

So his cousin was at a bar and there was a girl there who was dressed like she was clubbing (if I recall correctly) and she was getting pretty drunk over the night. So she slips off to the bathroom at some point, and my friend's cousin sees a man drop a crushed pill in her drink just before she gets back. Instantly my friend's cousin goes, "What the f*k is this?"

The guy respond with a very clever, "What? Piss off dude." The girl is completely out of it, so my friend's cousin puts a hand on her shoulder and says, "Go home honey." After giving her cab fare and walking her out to the cab, he comes back inside and the dumbass at the bar takes a swing at my friend's cousin.

Never ever take a swing at any Eastern European military personnel, 'cause it's bad, mmkay. The guy ended up with a broken arm and broken nose, and the best part is that none of the bar security even raised a finger in the fight. In fact, they threw the loser out of the bar, hopefully to crawl to a hospital and rethink his life.

Hopefully that was a little inspiring. It doesn't have to be a gender war, there are tons of guys who stand up for women.

I've also read that the human mind is set up in such a way that thinking about sexual activities or being horny can actually increase your pain threshold because the brain focuses on the pleasure over the pain. Just another factoid I felt like adding, although it's true that a lot of assault is inspired by a need for dominance rather than a need for sexual gratification.

As for fighting advice, everything I've read has said that running is the first and best option by far. If you can't, try to grab and dig fingers into their eyes, break their nose, and/or attack their genitals and then RUN. Always run, it's impossible to tell if you're fighting a belligerent and irrational, massively drunk guy or a belligerent and irrational, monstrous sociopath. Just run.

Unda, I'm glad you decided not to post this in the Women's Guild. Rape is often seen as a 'woman's only issue' when it's really a human issue. It's easy to just curl up and keep the problems hidden, when really we should be changing our sex-ed programs and increasing awareness in every way.

[azsf]

If you speak sexually and act sexually don't be surprised when people treat you sexually.

while normally i'd agree with this sort of sentiment, when it comes to sexual assault i have to disagree. being a sexual person, enjoying sex or wanting sex, or even wearing clothes that show off a body you're proud of, are not bad things. they are not a invitation to be assaulted or treated with disrespect. protecting yourself is one thing, telling someone to 'expect it' for being sexual is not on.

oh and as for 'no predators other than each other', come swim in the ocean in Australia

[faerywethyr]

while normally i'd agree with this sort of sentiment, when it comes to sexual assault i have to disagree. being a sexual person, enjoying sex or wanting sex, or even wearing clothes that show off a body you're proud of, are not bad things. they are not a invitation to be assaulted or treated with disrespect. protecting yourself is one thing, telling someone to 'expect it' for being sexual is not on.

oh and as for 'no predators other than each other', come swim in the ocean in Australia

Forgive Me I did not mean my statement to be interpreted as people deserve being assaulted. Rather, that we do bear some responsibility for how we chose to present ourselves. What I disagree with the attitude that "I can act and however I want and its not my fault if the whole world misinterprets me". I also am not suggesting that how a person dresses is a reason for assault. I was rather referring to sexual interaction that leads to an actual sexual encounter. If you are giving of those types of signals people will attempt to engage you in sexual activity and if they perceive you as being sexually aggressive they will be sexually aggressive in return. Even though it is not PC to say so I think it is kind of a raw deal to get all the way to someones bed and naked time then say no I mean if you did not want it why did you put yourself there?

EDIT: I fear my views may sound callous. I want to make it clear I never condone sexual assault of any kind and I don't believe there are any circumstances that make it Okay or Right. I just advocate people examining their own role and decision so that less people are victimized.

[azsf]

as i said normally id agree with you; if someone was walking around talking about how strong they were, how good they are at fighting and how they could take anyone on, i wouldn't be surprised when they got punched. the reason i dont think this works with sexual assault is because there's so many shades of gray in the interpretation of "sexual" and it's just a way of removing the burden of consent: "i didn't need to ask consent, they were clearly wanting it". even in the case of "getting into bed naked with someone" (lets say in this case a person has invited you into bed and you've agreed) you still have the right to change your mind, to set your own boundaries, and for your decisions to be respected. even that person who originally invited the person into bed, they can suddenly decide their not into it and call it off and that's ok too. you can get angry about it, and not like them anymore or whatever, but you cannot disrespect their decision to stop.

think of it this way: you invite a friend over to your house for dinner, and after a few drinks you bring out the main course: roast chicken. but your friend suddenly goes "oh wait, i don't feel like roast chicken, so i'll pass on dinner thanks". do you force feed them anyway? or flip it, and say you invite them over but after a few drinks you're feeling tired and cranky and don't really want to spend the rest of the evening with this person, and you ask them to leave before dinner. are they allowed to just raid your fridge, prepare a meal, and eat it at your table anyway?

people should take responsibility for their actions, definitely. sometimes peoples actions put them in jeopardy, and when talking to victims of assault (or crime in general) all you can really do is offer sympathy and advice on how to protect yourself. but the actual problem lies not with their actions, but with the person who didn't stop when they were told 'no', or who went ahead with consent.

[67alecto]

I really came here to drop this link, though. It's a great article (regardless of how anyone feels about the author). And there are links and references to some good resources on basic tactics one could use if ever in a bad situation.

http://www.nerdfitness.com/community/showthread.php?4856-Carjack-s-Fight-Like-a-Sadomasochist-Self-Defense-Workshop' rel="external nofollow">

Carjack's fight like a sadomasochist self-defense workshop

RE: his credentials. Just keep in mind that Carjack is an unemployed kid who lives with his parents (learned in the NF chat room).

[The Barefoot Ninja]

That can also escalate the level of the violence if the attacker is able to disarm you and uses it against you.

I'm just going to leave it at this: if you're going to pull a gun on someone, you'd damn well better be prepared to pull the trigger.

[Maledictus]

I don't like those 3hr self defense classes. A bunch of girls at my high school (many long years ago now) did one, while I had done about a year's worth of martial arts at that point. Their self-confidence in their ability to fight off attackers was boosted to silly levels. Sure, it did them good to feel less scared, *but* their expectations were dangerously unrealistic. Even using only half my strength, I could show them how their half-assed moves were completely unable to break my grip or get away from me. (Dangerous 5ft tall female hobbit that I was.)

In 10 min at lunch break, I taught them much better lessons than the instructions in their so-called women's self defense class. You hit with everything you've got, no holding back, hurting your attacker if you can, then run the hell away. And you need to learn, viscerally, that a half assed attempt to bat someone's arms away or wiggle out of a grab is going to do diddly squat.

"But it worked in class!". Yeah, I'm sure it did. Against opponents who are skinny-fat 17 year old girls like you, who let you break free at the first sign of an attack or the teeniest feeling of pain or strain. Because no-one wants to *hurt* each other, after all.

If you're picking a 3hr (or even a 10 week course, etc.) self defense class, make sure the instructor is giving you realistic advice, not hollow ego-boosting.

Absolutely agree on this. Back when I trained in jui jitsu on a regular basis we used to do women's self defence sessions that I got pulled in to as an attacker for pretty much the same reason they used to ask me to attack with live knives in gradings. Because I will go in both barrels and if you didn't stop me then that's your damn problem and I'm not going to care (yeah I know there's a word for people like that). I don't *want* to hurt people, I just don't care if I do (most of my life it didn't really register as "real" pain because it wasn't happening to me... I have a little more empathy these days. My wife still hasn't forgiven me for the slight bend to her nose though). Most women who thought they knew what they were doing would typically just freeze. People with extensive groundwork training fared better but my all time favourite was a karate instructor who I got pinned flat underneath me, both arms pinned held down who I said "looks like I win" to.. she bit me in the wrist and drew blood. That's what it takes. I have three daughters. They'll be taught to submit if they have to but ideally they'll be coming home with a couple of eyeballs or a freshly torn off nutsack for DNA testing.

Having said all that, the sad fact is that (I believe) the vast majority of these things aren't "random bloke pulls you off the street", it's much more likely to be a friend, or boyfriend or relative (blech). Been told a number of horror stories by female friends about that. For a while when I was younger it felt like 30% of the women I knew had been through some form of this crap. Probably a reflection of everyone being young hormonal and alcohol fueled, always a good mix.

[Kuiken]

It made me really nervy but what made me angrier was when I got home and told the hubby he started saying that I shouldn't be going out at night then. Why should I stop participating in something that is good for me and gives me joy just because other people out there are creeps and psychos? (or in this case one creep and one innocent cyclist) I shouldn't have to change!

So true! I used to run around the University sports field in the afternoon-lots of people also running, playing soccer, etc...-seems safe right? One afternoon I'm jogging along the back side of the fields (between the perimeter fence and a walled off area by the stadium) when I stopped to blow my nose. I look around (because I'm always checking my surroundings) and was greeted with the sight of a naked man pleasuring himself through a large gap in the wall. Fortunately the wall was solid at head height, so he didn't see that I had seen him. I just thought "well alrighty then" and booked it to the closest security guard while checking over my shoulder to see that he wasn't following and that no one else was running by where he was (ie. other alone females). I don't think I was in any real danger (I have some doubts as to how fast a naked man can run with a "fishing pole" between his legs, plus it was a gravel road-can't imagine that having gravel thrown at your sensitive bits when you're naked would feel nice), but it was still pretty disturbing-I mean 4pm on a sunny afternoon, I was running with no headphones on, and 50m back I just passed a children's soccer game? Can't get much more low risk than that!

So now I'm stuck either running on the track (large open space with a fence and card access, but stuck doing 400m laps) or the treadmill because some pervert made what should be safe unsafe. True he wasn't a rapist, but this was the third time he had been reported and he was obviously not well-I've seen enough Law & Order to know that he might not be far from escalating the crazy. And if he was able to get onto the sports field without any problems (I suppose with his clothes on he didn't look like a security risk), who else can? It's not right or fair, but that's just how it is. I guess it's like defensive driving-you have to assume everyone else is an idiot and take the necessary precautions.

I don't think there's any silver bullet that will protect you-there's just too many variables in that fight. Like a previous poster said: that the best way to win a fight is to never get into one. Tourist are always told not to wear expensive jewelry, carry large sums of money, or flash their expensive cameras as it makes them a target for theft. Similarly I think women have to be aware that what they do or wear or even say can make them a target for rape just as easily. It's NOT their fault that the rapist is a complete useless scumbag who fails at the most basic kindergarten rule of "mind your own business", but until there are less morons in the world it helps to take precautions.

And for all those women who think they're "not pretty enough to get raped"? No. Rape has nothing to do with looks-it's about opportunity. If you're morbidly obese, missing all of your front teeth, haven't bathed in a week with a face like a hockey player, etc.... walking down a dark alley at 3am, the rapist isn't going to think "I'll just wait for some one prettier".

[rtalencar]

In 10 min at lunch break, I taught them much better lessons than the instructions in their so-called women's self defense class. You hit with everything you've got, no holding back, hurting your attacker if you can, then run the hell away. And you need to learn, viscerally, that a half assed attempt to bat someone's arms away or wiggle out of a grab is going to do diddly squat.

Just to add, those things need to be drilled as well. The move is easy, but it's 'hard' to bring up the gumption to perform an effective eye gouge, throat strike, or to bite hard enough to tear flesh. There are a couple teenagers I work with a lot at my dojo. Nice kids, very dedicated, just a little on the small side. I brought one of them to tears getting him to practice eye gouges on me. He's a football player, he likes being physical, but feeling my eyeball through the eyelid and knowing to do the move live he'd have to force his fingers through them and pull is a lot for someone to stomach.

With respect to clothing, I actually think in a lot of cases it's baggy clothing that is more problematic because it's easier to pull off without consent.

This is obviously not a laughing matter, but I'm hoping this'll put at least a little bit of a light spin on things. If any of you have seen 'Book of Eli', I think all women should be issued whatever it was that Mila Kunis was wearing. She had like 235120591205912350971230957120975 layers on for that scene, and you certainly couldn't tell beforehand.

Also having a blind ninja with a machete as a travelling companion would help too.

[Raikas]

I don't think it's right that people can get stuck in circumstances like you describe, and in some cases things are truly unavoidable, but I do think in some cases there are resources available to help get people out of those situations. It's not easy and it certainly isn't fair (and, of course, in some cases obtaining that aid is impossible), but trying to get those sorts of things are part of what I'm trying to talk about. Finding a way to get yourself out of that situation if, heaven forbid, it's already happened, is extremely important.

I agree, but the complicating issue is that when we're talking about power differentials - minor children living with their rapist family member or residents of medical facilities being assaulted by staff (the sexual assault statistics for women with disabilities and senior women in nursing homes are horrifying), finding a way out or getting to resources can end up in the hands of their attackers. To be clear, I'd never suggest that people in those situations are helpless, I'm also uncomfortable with brushing off those kinds of issues with a "they should have gotten help" when their general freedom is already more limited.

I'm just going to leave it at this: if you're going to pull a gun on someone, you'd damn well better be prepared to pull the trigger.

And what happens to the person who is willing to pull the trigger but is disarmed as they're pulling it out? Or the person whose weapon is taken from them while it's still hidden during an initial struggle? Or if they're successful but attacker has nearby friends who are also armed? It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

I was rather referring to sexual interaction that leads to an actual sexual encounter. If you are giving of those types of signals people will attempt to engage you in sexual activity and if they perceive you as being sexually aggressive they will be sexually aggressive in return. Even though it is not PC to say so I think it is kind of a raw deal to get all the way to someones bed and naked time then say no I mean if you did not want it why did you put yourself there?

And what constitutes "sexual interaction"? People will claim that someone being friendly is "flirting" that someone wearing a conservative skirt is looking "provocative" or that having a certain style of hair or nails is giving a signal. Unless you want women to walk around fully covered and never talking to men there are always going to be some mixed signals - that's just part of normal human interaction and outside of a few extremes I don't see how pushing some of the blame onto the victim does anything other than increase shame.

[rtalencar]

I agree, but the complicating issue is that when we're talking about power differentials - minor children living with their rapist family member or residents of medical facilities being assaulted by staff (the sexual assault statistics for women with disabilities and senior women in nursing homes are horrifying), finding a way out or getting to resources can end up in the hands of their attackers. To be clear, I'd never suggest that people in those situations are helpless, I'm also uncomfortable with brushing off those kinds of issues with a "they should have gotten help" when their general freedom is already more limited.

I did acknowledge that there were cases where seeking out aid was impossible. I could go on a long rant about what should happen to people who take advantage of weaker folks like that but it would probably just get me banned for my calls to heinous crimes of violence against the wicked. There are situations, horrible situations, that cannot be avoided. The world can be a terrible place. All that being said, if you're in a situation like that or risk being in one, your options are--and always will be--to either do what you can to try to change the situation or to continue letting it happen. It's a sad truth, but it's reality. It will be more difficult for some than others, but it still bears being said. I think we're in agreement on this and am glad you highlighted just how difficult it can be for some people (notably seniors and minors, the common targets for these types of atrocities)

And what constitutes "sexual interaction"? People will claim that someone being friendly is "flirting" that someone wearing a conservative skirt is looking "provocative" or that having a certain style of hair or nails is giving a signal. Unless you want women to walk around fully covered and never talking to men there are always going to be some mixed signals - that's just part of normal human interaction and outside of a few extremes I don't see how pushing some of the blame onto the victim does anything other than increase shame.

There is a fine line between blaming the victim and encouraging people to do what they can to protect themselves. Whether or not safety precautions are followed that NEVER gives anyone the right to say that the victim was 'asking for it' or any such nonsense.

[The Barefoot Ninja]

And what happens to the person who is willing to pull the trigger but is disarmed as they're pulling it out? Or the person whose weapon is taken from them while it's still hidden during an initial struggle? Or if they're successful but attacker has nearby friends who are also armed? It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

Ya know, sometimes it is. And sometimes, it's not nearly as complicated as you make it sound.

[cianalas]

And what happens to the person who is willing to pull the trigger but is disarmed as they're pulling it out? Or the person whose weapon is taken from them while it's still hidden during an initial struggle? Or if they're successful but attacker has nearby friends who are also armed? It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

If you're going to carry a weapon, it's up to you to get the training to use it properly. Also, odds are that if you're being attacked, it's assumed you don't have a weapon and the attacker probably won't notice it being drawn (unless you make it really obvious). Struggle with one hand to create space/draw his attention and pull the weapon while his focus is elsewhere. If there's nearby friends, what you need to do doesn't change, just your odds of doing it. Your goal is always to disable the immediate threat enough to make a way to escape to safety. That might mean fighting off everyone, it might mean nut-shotting a guy and making his buddies trip over him as you run like hell toward somewhere safe. Point is, why limit your options to survive if you're already at a disadvantage? You don't have to use the weapon by having it, but it's another tool to help you.

Another question, if the weapon is hidden, how does the attacker know about it enough to disarm you before you draw it?

[Raikas]

If you're going to carry a weapon, it's up to you to get the training to use it properly. Also, odds are that if you're being attacked, it's assumed you don't have a weapon and the attacker probably won't notice it being drawn (unless you make it really obvious).

Look at the sexual assault stats in the armed forces - aren't those women trained? And if you look at global statistics, some of the highest numbers of rapes are coming out of countries with high numbers of civilian-carried firearms (so those women are being attacked despite being in a place where it's assumed that most/many people are armed) - training and a weapon don't necessarily make a woman safer. That's all I'm saying - I was responding to Ninja's earlier post about "get a gun" as a means of rape prevention. I agree that when it works, it works. And I agree that training is important. I'm just saying that the numbers suggest that it's not the guarantee that seemed to be implied there.

Ya know, sometimes it is. And sometimes, it's not nearly as complicated as you make it sound.

Yeah, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Either way, the older I get the more I find that nothing is simple and everything is complicated. *shrug*

Fundamentally, I totally agree that it's better to do something than do nothing, and that being prepared and aware are important. I just think we get into murky territory when it's implied that there's one easy solution. Even with the basics, there are many solutions, and none of them are easy.

[cianalas]

Look at the sexual assault stats in the armed forces - aren't those women trained?

Yes they are, however the assaulters are equally/better trained and (non-theater) military bases are places where you can't carry weapons.

And if you look at global statistics, some of the highest numbers of rapes are coming out of countries with high numbers of civilian-carried firearms (so those women are being attacked despite being in a place where it's assumed that most/many people are armed) - training and a weapon don't necessarily make a woman safer. That's all I'm saying - I was responding to Ninja's earlier post about "get a gun" as a means of rape prevention. I agree that when it works, it works. And I agree that training is important. I'm just saying that the numbers suggest that it's not the guarantee that seemed to be implied there.

Since most of these incidents happen in a place where the concerned parties are alone, I don't see other people carrying as having an effect on the situation. I also don't know if it's being implied that weapon & training, I'm certainly not trying to imply that. Only that having a weapon/training improves the odds of the victim. I personally don't see "get a gun" as a means of preventing rape. Awareness and the willingness to fight back if you can't avoid the situation are what prevent it. A weapon is just a tool that makes it easier.

Fundamentally, I totally agree that it's better to do something than do nothing, and that being prepared and aware are important. I just think we get into murky territory when it's implied that there's one easy solution. Even with the basics, there are many solutions, and none of them are easy.

Agreed. It's far easier said than done, and each situation is going to be different. Generally speaking, all forms of escaping the situation relatively unscathed boil down to 1) find/create a way to escape and 2) get to somewhere safe. The means of doing this will change depending on situation, and could be as simple as saying "no" and walking out the door to something as challenging as shooting someone and sprinting toward a populated area. I think me and Barefoot Ninja are just saying that carrying weapons just makes the hard cases easier.

[azsf]

I think me and Barefoot Ninja are just saying that carrying weapons just makes the hard cases easier.

This would make total sense if you knew when / where you'd be attacked. otherwise, what you're suggesting is that someone carry around a gun everywhere they go on the off chance someone tries to use extreme force on them. I hate even having my keys on me when i go train, i can't imagine having to secure a gun (safely) at the same time. then again it's illegal to carry firearms in Australia, so it's basically off the cards entirely here.

if you're going to pull a gun on someone, you'd damn well better be prepared to pull the trigger.

isn't this a terminator salvation quote? anyway, by this i assume you mean be ready to kill someone if you pull your gun. which means they need to have escalated the situation to one where you feel your life is in danger first. which means shit's gone down hill in a horrible way; not 'a strange guy got off at the same station as me and then wolf whistled at me". when things have gone that wrong, then i imagine getting your gun may be slightly harder than anticipated.

[The Barefoot Ninja]

Because most people won't pull out and use a gun or knife on their husband, boyfriend, uncle, date, drunk friend, etc.

If only you knew the women I know.......

[cianalas]

This would make total sense if you knew when / where you'd be attacked. otherwise, what you're suggesting is that someone carry around a gun everywhere they go on the off chance someone tries to use extreme force on them. I hate even having my keys on me when i go train, i can't imagine having to secure a gun (safely) at the same time. then again it's illegal to carry firearms in Australia, so it's basically off the cards entirely here.

Yes, I am suggesting they be carried everywhere legally allowed. I do, and I know plenty of others that do as well (Living in the American Southeast tends to be a little more open to this). It can be a pain to do at times, but if your gym has lockers, just put it in there with a good lock on it. If there isn't, just park close to the entrance and keep it locked in your car.

Since most rapes and sexual assaults are carried out by someone the victim knows, or situations where things *start* seeming friendly (dates/parties), I think its more important to be skilled in non-weapon forms of self defense. Because most people won't pull out and use a gun or knife on their husband, boyfriend, uncle, date, drunk friend, etc

I do think that you need to know hand to hand combat in conjunction with weapon training, especially for this subject. For one, even if you are willing to use a weapon, you have to first be able to know enough hand-to hand to create time and space to safely draw the weapon. It's hard to draw the weapon if you aren't able to reach it without them grabbing for it. Secondly, even if a gun or knife won't be used against friends and family, pepper-spray probably will and knife training carries over to anything more or less knife-sized. I do think that unarmed training is what should be learned first, but I can't say that someone should only have unarmed skills, especially if they're already physically at a disadvantage.

[azsf]

maybe this is a cultural difference, between Australia where guns are essentially illegal, and the US where you can get a permit for concealed carry. To an Australian, the thought that someone is walking around your local supermarket, picking kids up at school, or even just driving around with a loaded gun is kind of insane.

[cianalas]

Yeah, there's a huge cultural difference. Here in the Southeast, it's not uncommon to see pickups driving around with gunracks in the back window during hunting season, and I'll usually end up seeing several people a week carrying a pistol in a visible holster at the grocery store I work at. No one cares/notices. America is a gun nation. Between using them to fight for our independence and the vast majority of the country being settled by people who used it for their main source of food, guns just became part of the national identity. Around both mountain ranges, you'll still find groups of people who hunt for most or all of the meat they use for the year. Sometimes because it's just cheaper/healthier/more fun than buying store bought, but in some areas it's actually the only way they can get a good portion of their food because the land doesn't really allow for easy industrialization.

[Raikas]

Sometimes because it's just cheaper/healthier/more fun than buying store bought, but in some areas it's actually the only way they can get a good portion of their food because the land doesn't really allow for easy industrialization.

I don't think hunting explains American gun culture. People hunt here in Canada, but very few people carry guns outside of that activity. Even people who can legally carry/own non-hunting firearms (including people in law enforcement or the armed forces when off duty) generally don't keep those weapons at home. The idea of someone keeping a firearm in a locker at a gym (or anything along those lines) is quite bizarre (and a little scary) from here.

[Balmung the Tyro]

I don't think hunting explains American gun culture. People hunt here in Canada, but very few people carry guns outside of that activity. Even people who can legally carry/own non-hunting firearms (including people in law enforcement or the armed forces when off duty) generally don't keep those weapons at home. The idea of someone keeping a firearm in a locker at a gym (or anything along those lines) is quite bizarre (and a little scary) from here.

I agree that hunting doesn't explain American gun culture. I have guns and have (unfortunately) never been hunting. But the fact that someone might keep a gun at home is bizarre and scary to you, but makes completely logical sense to me is probably one of the key reasons we see things so differently. Not saying one view is right and the other is wrong. But they are vastly different.

Oh, and by the way, this is The Barefoot Ninja. Ronin is my original account, I created The Barefoot Ninja when I forgot Ronin's Log In information. Obviously, I have recovered it.