On being a woman and fighting back [trigger warning]

[cianalas]

I didn't mean to imply that hunting was the reason for people carrying guns everywhere. Getting off a 10 hour workday that late kinda messed with my ability to type clearly. I think a good part of it is that we used privately owned guns to get our country. Having the idea that a private, semi-trained militia can fight off an unwanted army is kind of appealing to us. But I do think that pioneers needing them to live further cemented them into our culture. Even if we don't look at the hunting aspect, pioneers were basically left on their own to defend against warring Indians and bandits. The pioneering age didn't end that long ago for us (early 1900's), so that mentality still kinda exists. I've noticed that the further you get out of the big cities, the more common guns are, which is why I brought up hunting. It might just be that in more rural areas, the people have a more self-sufficient mentality than in cities. I mean even here on the outskirts of a decently sized city (Knoxville, TN) it can easily take 25 minutes or so for emergency services to respond, compared to about 5 minutes in the city. I've heard police officers recommending people to get a gun saying they wouldn't be able to get there in time if something happened (in general, not to any specific event).

The same isn't true for New York, LA, Chicago, Detroit, etc. though. Most people in the big cities look at the situation from your point of view. Different experiences just lead to different conclusions.

[Raikas]

But I do think that pioneers needing them to live further cemented them into our culture. Even if we don't look at the hunting aspect, pioneers were basically left on their own to defend against warring Indians and bandits

Maybe, but FWIW I think the post-colonial/imperialist history of much of the world has more similarities than it does differences. Certainly Canada and Australia at least have plenty of that same history of colonials and post-colonial newcomers displacing the indigenous population!

Fascinating though this is (and I do think it's interesting stuff - love talking about historical/cultural connections) I think we're pretty off the original topic now though!

[67alecto]

maybe this is a cultural difference, between Australia where guns are essentially illegal, and the US where you can get a permit for concealed carry. To an Australian, the thought that someone is walking around your local supermarket, picking kids up at school, or even just driving around with a loaded gun is kind of insane.

That's because Australia, as everyone knows, is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them.

[wildross]

And I can clearly not trust you.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

[Balmung the Tyro]

Fascinating though this is (and I do think it's interesting stuff - love talking about historical/cultural connections) I think we're pretty off the original topic now though!

You may be on to something here.....and to keep that train of thought derailed, has anyone told you how awesomely cool your avatar picture is?

[dracopervicax]

Oooookay. Maybe I can get us back on topic?

It seems like it'd be really useful to delineate the different kinds of rapes in Western societies. It seems like there are different "kinds" of rapes and ways to be safer from each of these, but they are gonna vary. Maybe it would be helpful for us to make clear what kinds of rape we are talking about before we expound upon our methods of prevention.

I think since we are all adults we should leave out child rape and molestation, as we are discussing how to make ourselves safer.

I would also propose that we all recognize that there is no 100% way to make you always safe all the time forever and ever. It doesn't matter if you never trust another soul, someone could still get the drop on you. It doesn't matter if you never drink, someone can still overpower you. It doesn't matter how we change our society's socialization or our sex education, some people will always be assholes.

The reason I say this is because "rebuttals" to certain methods either involve saying 1) "but that doesn't apply to X kind of rape, which is more relevant/prominent/whatever" or 2) "XYZ could go wrong with that method, therefore we cannot use it."

There is no one situation. There is no such thing as 100% safe. Savvy? So with those things in mind, let us continue, and I'll put in my two cents.

For date rape/party rape/partner rape, I think a great deal should be said for people being just a little bit more assertive. This is NOT to say that a woman who does not assert her desires is in some way deserving of rape. However, I do think that we are a little conflict-avoidant in our culture. I do not think that a person gets naked into another person's bed without first having some reservations about it, but because that person might not want to cause trouble, they don't say anything until they're nervous. Nervousness begets the freezing up tendency that you saw a lot in the Reddit thread. Silence is not consent, this is true, but silence isn't technically a rejection either. I think it's unfair to expect a young, intoxicated person to be so emotionally sensitive that s/he picks up on a person's feelings when that person is not saying anything.

I think there is also a false tendency to think that if we express rejection that the person will automatically turn violent. There are, of course, abusive relationships, but if you and someone else are tipsy in a room and one of you says something with weight behind it, it is likely that the other person will listen. It is of course not always the case that this is true, but many times it is.

A good way to know if someone is a threat to you is to simply evaluate how they respect your physical independence before you even get intimate. My friend's (now-ex, thank the gods) fiance used to pick her up without her consent and take her across the room, even when she expressed a genuine desire to stay where she was. He would take her hand and pull her places. And she went with him because she was very non-confrontational. Her mother and I intervened before they got married, but I know if she had stayed with him, he would have been so physically dominant over her he might have turned physically abusive.

It's not as if a rapist is a normal person one day and then suddenly morphs into a rapist. There are signs. We are just so non-confrontational and suppress our own instincts so much these days that we don't see -- or we ignore -- the warning signs before they come.

I would say that 9/10 of all of these kinds of rape situations (and perhaps even with many stranger rape situations) begin with a subtle, psychological warfare. The person tests you to see if you'll stand up for yourself, or if you'll resist them physically, in little ways far before you get drunk or disappear with them. A great way to protect yourself is to be the kind of person who stands up for their own boundaries at all times. Stand your ground all the time, not just when things have escalated. Don't give your trust to someone until they have earned it.

My rant has encompassed a lot of what others have said here, but I'd like to make it explicit that psychologically standing your ground is a part of fighting back and signals subtly that your would-be attacker is not gonna have an easy time with you, which is what some others have emphasized. Many times you can do this without saying anything or without being aggressive.

[67alecto]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4984[/ATTACH]

The file name says it all

[Unda]

@Draco I'm not really sure what I think about what you've just said. I'm kind of conflicted. On the one hand I agree that people need to be more clear about what they want, going for both parties. Saying "should we have sex?" is just as important as saying "I do/do not want to have sex", especially if people are slightly (or more) inebriated.

I also think that standing up for yourself and being assertive overall is good as that behavior is both likely to a) make you less of a target and get you more accustomed to expressing what you do and don't want.

However... I'm an assertive person. And... well. Whilst I've not been raped I have been sexually assaulted, by the psychopath who raped one of my best friends. I confronted him about what he'd done, pulled apart his lies and started trying to get people to acknowledge that this wasn't okay and just pretending that it hadn't happened wasn't a good idea. I was assertive, I was confident and I was determined to right a wrong. I became his target. In front of a group of my friends he grabbed my wrist and forced it away from me and used the opportunity to to berate me. He told me that there was nothing I could do to stop him, that there was no way I was going to be able to help my friend when I couldn't even protect myself. He pulled me about and took the opportunity to grope my breasts whilst laughing in my face that there was nothing that I could do to stop him, that I couldn't have any affect on his life and even here in front of an audience of people that I called my friends no one would stop him or support me.

What upset me most about that incident is that he was right in part. None of my friends stopped him, they most that they said was that it wasn't funny, as if he'd taken a joke too far. He then stole my shoes and socks (which I'd earlier taken off) and threw them away, telling me that I couldn't even leave without his say so. I told him to die, I told him that I wouldn't rest until his life was ruined, that he might be able to push other people around but not me. I had to walk two miles barefoot in the middle of summer over asphalt and through woodlands crying to find my boyfriend who was on another campus. No one stopped me to ask if i was okay, no one offered help and none of my friends that were there stopped him. You cannot count on other people. You really can't. People SUCK.

Most people anyway. My boyfriend (now husband) managed to do the smart thing and restrained himself from beating the guy to a pulp and instead went to the college staff and reported the incident, he demanded that they bring up the security footage and he demanded that they call my parents. They did. Between me, my parents and the footage we got him expelled from the college. I SHOULD have gotten him arrested too but I never thought of it. But I got him away from his last victim and I got him away from me. I also ditched the crappy friends that were there with me that day.

My point was that this wouldn't have happened to me if I hadn't been strong, if I hadn't been assertive and if I hadn't stood up for what was right. It can get you into trouble. But in retrostpect even though thinking about it still makes me sick, I don't regret what I did. It is worth it to be strong and to do the right thing, but it sometimes comes with a price.

[rtalencar]

@Draco I'm not really sure what I think about what you've just said. I'm kind of conflicted. On the one hand I agree that people need to be more clear about what they want, going for both parties. Saying "should we have sex?" is just as important as saying "I do/do not want to have sex", especially if people are slightly (or more) inebriated.

I also think that standing up for yourself and being assertive overall is good as that behavior is both likely to a) make you less of a target and get you more accustomed to expressing what you do and don't want.

However... I'm an assertive person. And... well. Whilst I've not been raped I have been sexually assaulted, by the psychopath who raped one of my best friends. I confronted him about what he'd done, pulled apart his lies and started trying to get people to acknowledge that this wasn't okay and just pretending that it hadn't happened wasn't a good idea. I was assertive, I was confident and I was determined to right a wrong. I became his target. In front of a group of my friends he grabbed my wrist and forced it away from me and used the opportunity to to berate me. He told me that there was nothing I could do to stop him, that there was no way I was going to be able to help my friend when I couldn't even protect myself. He pulled me about and took the opportunity to grope my breasts whilst laughing in my face that there was nothing that I could do to stop him, that I couldn't have any affect on his life and even here in front of an audience of people that I called my friends no one would stop him or support me.

What upset me most about that incident is that he was right in part. None of my friends stopped him, they most that they said was that it wasn't funny, as if he'd taken a joke too far. He then stole my shoes and socks (which I'd earlier taken off) and threw them away, telling me that I couldn't even leave without his say so. I told him to die, I told him that I wouldn't rest until his life was ruined, that he might be able to push other people around but not me. I had to walk two miles barefoot in the middle of summer over asphalt and through woodlands crying to find my boyfriend who was on another campus. No one stopped me to ask if i was okay, no one offered help and none of my friends that were there stopped him. You cannot count on other people. You really can't. People SUCK.

Most people anyway. My boyfriend (now husband) managed to do the smart thing and restrained himself from beating the guy to a pulp and instead went to the college staff and reported the incident, he demanded that they bring up the security footage and he demanded that they call my parents. They did. Between me, my parents and the footage we got him expelled from the college. I SHOULD have gotten him arrested too but I never thought of it. But I got him away from his last victim and I got him away from me. I also ditched the crappy friends that were there with me that day.

My point was that this wouldn't have happened to me if I hadn't been strong, if I hadn't been assertive and if I hadn't stood up for what was right. It can get you into trouble. But in retrostpect even though thinking about it still makes me sick, I don't regret what I did. It is worth it to be strong and to do the right thing, but it sometimes comes with a price.

First and foremost, I'm very sorry that you had to go through that. It's awful. I commend your courage for standing up for your friend even when noone else would.

For the sake of this line of reasoning though, I will state that your scenario is--at least I think it is--a little bit different than what draco was referring to. You were calling out a known predator for past actions in front of other people. Although it was a good thing you did since it got him away from your friend, that sort of thing has a high chance of putting a dangerous person on the defensive. The fact that your friends who were there were spineless c*nts aside, I do think that scenario is different than being at a party or bar or something having a good time. Although there is still a danger, I would think it would be easier for a predator to move on if they come across someone willing to stand up for themselves. In the scenario you described, he had no choice but to address the situation, as you weren't going to just go away.

I want to stress that I don't think what you did was wrong, just that the scenario is a little bit different than what Draco described.

Also, good job on nixing your spineless friends. People unwilling to stand up for other people in danger are cowards, and what's worse is those folks knew you.

[Flex Luthor]

This post goes to the op. As far as a woman being able to physically fight off a man there's one main factor to consider. Is he on top of you/grabbing a hold of you or not? If yes then there's almost nothing you can do, if no there are a few things you can do. However, I've been studying martial arts for several years and I will quote my instructor on self defense. "The absolute best self defense is avoiding an altercation entirely through talking or running away." This comes from an 8th Dan in Hapkido, approximately 6', 260lbs. Getting kicked by him at half strength is like getting hit by a truck and that's how he views self defense. Food for thought.

[Mordechaj]

This:

First, I think you've done a great job bringing up the subject and framing it nicely.

Secondly as to man vs woman strength. Most men's ability to dish out and take physical punishment (as in punches, etc, not talking about the whole pain tolerance/child birth thing) is much greater than most women's, especially when angry. I've put my fist through walls, and doors and taken doors off hinges without really trying that hard and without any training. I also seldom notice cuts/bruises, etc until much later. Unfortunately, I think there is a 'beast' lurking under the veneer of civility with most of us males.

Violence comes so much more natural to men because of the difference in upbringing and "allowed" (encouraged) playing as a kid.

It's a cat vs dog situation. Almost any cat can chase most dogs away if they are cornered, because they claw, and bite, and they are fast and furious and they are fighting for their lives while the dogs are just having fun. Dog then concludes that fun is not worth the scratches and leaves the cat alone.

That's what happens when ladies play fight with their male friends. We don't want to hurt you, so we pull the punches.

That's all good, until there's a really mean dog in the playground. It doesn't have to be a big dog, he just needs to be bloodthirsty enough that he'll decide killing that damned cat is well worth scratches and even perhaps a blind eye.

It's not all allegory here. I've known overly secure cats got torn to pieces by 20-30 pound dogs because they didn't recognise in time that the rules of the play have changed, and that this dog won't back away.

It's something my cat-loving girlfriend was not completely aware of.

^ This.

This is pretty much THE ONLY reason I enjoy my height/weight (6'0"/200lbs) as a woman. Most men take one look at me and think "nope, too much work". In my travels I've learned that the best way to avoid being accosted is to just NOT look like a target: be aware of your surroundings, be looking around you, be with a group, be in a well-trafficked area, don't carry a big gaudy bag/umbrella/jewelry/etc. If you can avoid having a stranger even consider you, then you avoid the situation altogether. Also, NEVER carry a weapon you are not INCREDIBLY PROFICIENT in using. Not a knife, a gun, nothing but maybe a can of mace and even then, I'd think about leaving that at home. Weapons make you feel safe - you do NOT want to feel safe. Feeling safe, as my dad used to say, makes you stupid.

I've been told that I can have a very "not amused" face. This alone with a straight look in a problem makers eye was enough to prevent a lot of potential interactions. Not staring and trying to provoke anyone, just a look that says that I've registered their existence, that I'm aware of them and that I'm not intimidated.

Even when I'd be waiting for a public transport at strange hours after midnight, dead beat tired and reading a book (behaviour that's more likely than not to make you a target because "reading is for pussies" here), I'd keep track of my surroundings and people about me, and I'd be left alone.

I didn't have a spectacular traumatic experience that made me paranoid, I just don't trust in people and that makes me funny to quite a lot of people that know me, but a few of my friends are every now and then grateful for that trait of mine.

I did about 2-3 years of martial arts as a teen, and I was fairly good. But, when you're outmatched by an extra foot of height, and a lot more muscle, some moves just plain won't work.

My philosophy is that if you're outmatched in size and strength (whatever your gender, because men are at risk too), you need to fight dirty, and viciously, and do it *fast*, before you get smacked around too much.

If you're willing to try and bite off an attacker's finger, or stab your fingers in their eye so it pops like a grape, to yell and scream and hit everything you can with every ounce of force you have, you'll usually have the edge. Going for joint-breaking moves and vulnerable areas (eyes, throat, groin, face) is far better than trying to out-punch someone, if your goal is to win, and survive.

I forgot which one of boxing greats said that wanting to win in not enough. You need the will to KILL that person. You need to want to maim him, and hurt him so bad that he'll not be able to walk, eat or piss unassisted.

Without the will to kill someone you'll pull your punches.

If you don't accept that it's better to be judged by six than carried by four (slight difference in judicial system here) - you are most likely to lose.

You need to aim higher, because most likely you'll undershoot.

You need the will to kill the assailant, because most likely you won't be able. You'll just hurt him. If you just want to hurt him to make him stop most likely you won't be able to do even that.

There's a look on a persons face that can be recognised when they are willing to break bones, tear flesh, strangle and smash someone's skull in when confronted. That's not a look of a victim, and the would-be-predator will think twice.

On another forum I used to frequent people talked about bar fights and tight spots they found themselves in, and since the forum is relaxed and friendly there was no false chest thumping - no one was ashamed to say that he ran, or got beaten.

One guy said how he was sitting by the bar, drinking beers and ignoring anything around him, when 4-5 buff bullies came to him and started to talk smack and prepare for a fight. He's a little fellow, but he just turned in his chair to face them, held the bottle in his right hand and looked their alpha jerk in the eye saying: "I'm not afraid to die tonight." He was not lying, they saw it, and left the bar without another word. Anyone of them could have overpowered him, but they were not willing to pay the price.

I'm all for pacifism, but not for the passive victimize-me kind. Sikhs got it right: every adult male is required to carry a knife called Kirpan which means "the dignity and honour of compassion, kindness and mercy". When asking, warning and pleading fail - they are required to act to their utmost ability to stop the violence over the weak.

Awareness is all fine and good and it has truly served me well, but you can not avoid all violent situations, especially if you decide that you can't turn a blind eye. If you have anyone in this world you would want to be able to protect - you can't always rely on running away.

[Katariana]

I know this thread is old, but Im glad its here.

 

I feel like it's really difficult to know what you will do in a situation until you're actually - in - that situation. And since every situation is different - it really depends on the circumstances more than other factors.

 

I do believe that being a girl, unless you're particularly stronger/heavier, makes it extremely difficult if not darn near impossible to fight off a man. That's a bitter pill to swallow, when you want to believe you're strong/tough/capable. Why should you not be able to fight off a guy if you're fit or determined enough? But I think nearly all the time it is almost impossible for an average girl to fight off an average guy.

 

Im not proud of it, but I have gotten myself into many really awful situations, where I've had to fight off men. Sometimes its been my fault ( if I'm drinking and someone ticks me off, I start throwing punches, something Im still working on) but sometimes it hasn't been my fault. But I have learned so much.

 

I've learned that the element of surprise, and being ruthless is the only way to win a fight against a guy. If you can take them down fast and hard enough to start out with. In one situation a guy I thought had been a "friend" tried to climb into the shower with me (without my permission). When I kicked him out, he stole all of my clothes and all of the towels. So, I marched out to where he was and decked the guy. But, he was surprised and caught off guard, and I was pissed as hell. In a different (but somewhat similar situation) I had a guy who was angry and screaming in my face "hit me, hit me". I hit him, and it knocked him back - but at the same time, I don't think he ever expected me to actually throw a punch. However, nearly a week later I got into an actual brawl/fist fight with the same guy, and I went down pretty fast. He was expecting it, and knew I would fight back. The only thing I had on my side was the fact that I know how to throw a punch, and I have pretty high pain tolerance, so even when he hit me I didn't go down as fast as I probably could've. At another point in the time, the guy got angry with me, and instead of it even being a fight, he just picked me up, carried me off, and locked me in a closet. And there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it.

 

I've gotten into a few fist fights at bars as well (really, I am a girl who has spent so much time being absolutely convinced I could hold my own against a guy). The only thing I realized though was that unless I started out with an advantage, I lost.

 

You would think, however, that a girl who has the "fight" instinct so strong (in fight vs. flight) would then not be an easy target for sexual assault, or rape. However, one time this has happened to me, and it was by a close friend I grew up with for over ten years. And as much as you think you know ahead of time what you will do in any situation (its not like Im not a fighter), you really don't know. You can say whatever you want about conflict avoidance or girls being unsure what to do, and how you have to tell yourself to always fight, to make yourself heard, to know how to say "no" and get them to listen, but it doesn't always work that way either. I know in my case, I brushed the guy off thinking he was just messing around - the guy was practically my brother, I met him when I was 7. When I realized he was serious, I said no. Multiple times, but he didn't listen. And instead of fighting I just froze. Not because I was conflict avoidant, afraid of causing a scene, or afraid for my life (you should know hand to hand moves instead of using a gun if you know someone) - it was none of those things. My brain simply shut off. 

 

Of course I told all of our friends, who didn't believe me, and thought I had just cheated on my boyfriend and didn't want to admit to it. I called the cops, who also didn't believe me, because we lived in a small town and they had grown up with this guy too. It got to the point where I questioned myself. 

 

Anyways, I have also (living near L.A now, with very high crime) been assaulted by random strangers. And I realized that is also another situation entirely than even just fist fighting with people - when you're in danger for your life. And fighting like your life depends on it is entirely different, and the best advice I can give is to be ruthless. The only way to get out of a situation like that (with a stronger/larger attacker) is to "fight like a girl" and try to go for their eyes, kick them in the nuts, bite, kick, scream, and fight like hell.

 

The best thing really is to just be aware of every situation. Take every precaution, even if it seems like you are being hyper-sensitive or other people question you. Check under you cars, or in your car in the parking lot. Always be aware of who is around you. I don't mean to say change every habit you have (I believe girls shouldn't have to give things up for fear of being attacked). But the reality is that it can happen, it does happen, and so the safer you can be the better. In my old neighborhood in Kentucky, I used to run at night outside. But I knew almost every neighbor, their habits, and was very aware of every detail around me. Now I've moved to CA in an unsafe neighborhood, and I wouldn't dream of running outside. 

 

Anyways, I didn't mean to hijack this old thread, or just go on and on - but in case anyone does decide to read it, I think girls should know that these things do happen, and to try to stay safe, and be prepared to fight like a cornered animal, because even then you barely have a shot at winning - only discouraging the attacker, or finding an escape.

 

 

(Oh, and just to put this in here because I realize I did talk a lot about my life - I don't really need any advice/support/encouragement,so don't feel obligated or awkward on my behalf - I've learned a  lot from my experiences and only talk about them to try and help other girls)

[ScrabbleGirl]

Here's some of the best tips for preventing rape and sexual assault.

"1. Don’t put drugs in people’s drinks in order to control their behavior.

2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!

3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!

4. NEVER open an unlocked door or window uninvited.

5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON’T ASSAULT THEM!

6. Remember, people go to laundry to do their laundry, do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

7. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.

8. Always be honest with people! Don’t pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault. Consider telling them you plan to assault them. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not plan to rape them.

9. Don’t forget: you can’t have sex with someone unless they are awake!

10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone “on accident†you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do."

Its all too easy to fall into the trap of victim blaming. Not saying we're doing that here, but remember, it shouldn't matter a damn if you're walking down a dark alley on your own whiledrunk and wearing only your underwear. That doesn't make rape OK.

Mothers, fathers, remember to teach your kids that the standard for permission to have sex should be "enthusiastic, informed mutual participation". Its not OK to take advantage of someone who's protesting, drunk, frozen silent, mentally incompetent to make decisions (esp. due to young age or disability) or even just unsure about whether they really want to do it.

 

 

I love this. 

 

This thread, however, is so disturbing... I couldn't get through all the comments, but it left me incensed. The fact that this guy calls himself a 'good man' then says "So, anyways, after a while it became boring to go after the sluts and sorority girls that would easily throw their cunt after you." 

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x6yef/reddits_had_a_few_threads_about_sexual_assault/c5jtt3p

 

Hey guy, just because you no longer rape people, it doesn't make you a good person. Not raping people is the bare minimum I expect from people on a daily basis. I was about to say that I understand that it must have been hard to admit this, but how could it have been? He doesn't disclose who he is and uses a fake account, so no culpability there. He also says he's remorseful, but wouldn't ever apologise to the women he hurt... so nothing difficult there. What a seriously depressing read. 

[Mordechaj]

Even in judo, a martial art that's supposed to enable a smaller fighter to face stronger opponent there are weight-classes in tournaments and competitions. Size matters.

[cracked_belle]

Sure you can. Be faster than he is. Stab the f*cker.

that made me giggle.

 

 

 

but on a serious note, I don't think I could hold my own.  I even took taekwondo and judo classes.  I think I could do some damage, yes.  but I don't think I'd be able to escape.

 

I do hope I am never in the situation to find out, though.

[Vian]

This is a very interesting thread. I've always believed that I could get a guy off me in an attack with the adrenalin rush from fear. I'm 5'9" and 217 pounds (I was 270). I've also always been sorta strong, at least compared to most out of shape, non-athletic people. Now starting crossfit, I am learning just how weak I really am, though I still believe I am stronger than, say, the average woman at my college who is <150 pounds and doesn't work out. I feel like because of my height and bone structure, with alot of work and muscle building, and some decent self-defense training, I could definitely fend off an attack. I think most attackers are looking for an easy target, and are more likely to be surprised and caught-off guard by a woman who even attempts to fight back and would at least lose his grip long enough for the woman to get away.

[Optimus Prime]

Size is a disadvantage.  Disadvantages are certainly a factor in the outcome of any altercation, but one disadvantage does not determine the outcome on it's own.  If you're going to train, you should be focusing on simple movements that inflict a large amount of pain to the attacker.  Whether that's a kick in the groin, stomping on the person's foot, or a kick to the shins, it needs to be a large and simple movement.  In a stressful encounter, most people will lose fine motor skills and realistically some people will just freeze.  Forget karate technique A. and B.  You're only trying to inflict enough pain to temporarily disable the attacker, at which point you need to run.

[cianalas]

Size is a disadvantage.  Disadvantages are certainly a factor in the outcome of any altercation, but one disadvantage does not determine the outcome on it's own.  If you're going to train, you should be focusing on simple movements that inflict a large amount of pain to the attacker.  Whether that's a kick in the groin, stomping on the person's foot, or a kick to the shins, it needs to be a large and simple movement.  In a stressful encounter, most people will lose fine motor skills and realistically some people will just freeze.  Forget karate technique A. and B.  You're only trying to inflict enough pain to temporarily disable the attacker, at which point you need to run.

I'd only argue two points on this, though it's mostly semantics.

I think everyone should train.  Whether it's taking up a martial art/self-defense seminar or just shadowboxing while learning techniques from Youtube videos, everyone should practice enough to be able to defend themselves against common threats, whatever they are in the area.

 

I'd also change it to trying to inflict as much damage in as few moves as possible.  Adrenaline overrides pain pretty easily, it's got a harder time overriding physical issues, even if it is just the wind knocked out of them.  Then you run, because even if they're not getting up, they might have friends nearby.

[Maris Stella]

I would also add that women in head to toe burkas still get raped. Covering up head to toe does *not* stop sexual harassment and assault. What stops sexual harassment and assault is, in the vast majority of cases, men's willingness to act respectfully towards women. You can *say* that dressing "slutty" makes men think more about sex. But remember, they don't need to act on that. And the cultural bar for what is "slutty" is set differently in different cultures. In cultures where lots of women go topless, and cultures where women cover up entirely except for a strip of mesh across their eyes, the difference is not what women wear, but in how men are taught to act to that level of exposure, and how they're taught to regard women.

 

Athena, all your posts on this thread made me want to cheer, but this one most of all.

 

This thread is old, but it's something I've struggled with for a long time, so I wanted to hop in.

 

In general, unless a guy was a certifiable psychopath, he wouldn't try his luck with me, sober. Pretty sure this is just because I am the same height as most men, at 5'10", and I have "B****face." Which basically means that when I'm relaxed, I look stern, and when I'm deep in thought, I look a little menacing. (I know. Hard to believe based on my absurd avatar picture. When I'm not relaxed or thinking I pretty much look like a cartoon character all the time.)

 

However, I have been in several close shaves, all with guys I knew at least by name, when they were drunk. One time was with a close friend, who was actually a little shorter than me, and it wasn't a difficult altercation. I don't think I had a weight advantage, but having longer arms and legs was enough for me to get away from him. Another time was a friend of my then-boyfriend's. He was 6'5", and when I didn't appreciate his "cuddliness" he slapped me across the face. A girlfriend of mine told him off immediately, and got hit even harder -- hard enough that she staggered back into my arms. This was in the middle a party with a lot of other people, including many physically powerful guys (my ex among them) and no one else stepped in. 

 

Unfortunately, those are just two examples in a laundry list of, to be honest, worse encounters...I provided those two because they're at the extremes of size.  And I just want to point out a few things:

 

None of the times that a man has crossed a line with me, have I been:

- drunk.

- dressed provocatively.

- or alone at night.

 

In short, there is nothing I could have done, short of staying home with a shotgun across my lap. But I really shouldn't have had to do anything. "No" should have been enough.

 

We tolerate this kind of behavior and thinking from men, in our society. We make it about things that women should do differently. But this is a sexist premise on so many levels -- it's sexist towards women because of this notion that a woman should have to live in fear all the time (though, many of us already do) and act as if everyone is a suspect, and it's sexist towards men because it depends on the idea that men have no control over themselves at all. For example, I'm sure plenty of people would read this post and think "but those guys were drunk." Whereas when I have been drunk, I have never had the urge to grab someone, or hit someone, or whatever, and been unable to stop myself. The alcohol was an excuse.

 

And yet, the people in my life who have the most willpower are all men. I have a lot of male friends (more than female, actually), and among them are intense mountain-dwelling monks, guys who can do amazing physical feats, martial artists, soldiers and medical students. In particular, the men in my life are great at physical self control. So where does this notion come from that, as a gender, males just go wild with lust and can't help themselves? Sounds like something that started out as a convenience, from the days when society was fully male-dominated. Sounds like some BS, to me. The only real solution is to retrain males, and reframe our views of sexuality. There won't ever be *no* rape or assault, in the same way there will never be no murder, but it should at least be relegated to psychopaths. It should at least be so unusual and appalling that it makes the evening news, and the knee-jerk reaction of society is to take up their pitch forks and torches, instead of assuming the woman wore a short skirt.

 

In the meantime, I think it's my responsibility to myself to do everything in my power to have a strong, capable body, with good self-preservation instincts and a will to fight. It's not foolproof, but it's better than guaranteeing I am weaker than someone who might want to hurt me. And, frankly, I do view every man as a suspect, if I don't know him well or if he's got firewater in him. That's just learning from experience. But it's sad, and I hate that I have to think that way. I hate that a really nice guy could come up to me, and if he happened to be at a restaurant with a bar, or if the sun was going down, or he looked like he worked out a lot, I would react pretty coolly. The nice guys don't deserve to be profiled because there are so many dicks running around.

 

But the nice guys have to help us out, and tell their buddies to quit disrespecting women. That way, we all win!

[Twentythree]

So.....

 

Always fight back. Period, full stop.

 

A thorough review of the available literature has led us to some surprising conclusions about the effectiveness of traditional anti-rape
advice. Women are often advised to use non-aggressive strategies against sexual assault (Storaska, 1975; Channing L. Bete Co., What every woman should know about rape, 1989; Channing L. Bete Co., What women and men should know about date rape, 1989). Research suggests that this is poor advice. According to one study (Zoucha-Jensen and Coyne, 1993), women who used non-forceful verbal strategies, such as crying or pleading with the assailant, were raped about 96% of the time. In the same study, women who did nothing to protect themselves were raped about 93% of the time.

Forceful verbal resistance, including yelling and loud screaming, was more effective than non-forceful verbal resistance. These strategies were associated with completion of rape from 44% - 50% of the time (Quinsey and Upfold, 1985). This study is particularly interesting because the data were collected from rapists in maximum security psychiatric hospitals, showing that forceful verbal strategies can be effective even against the violently insane.

Running worked even better than verbal resistance. Although researchers who relied on rape crisis center records and police records
(Zoucha-Jensen and Coyne, 1993) report a 55% rape completion rate against those who attempted to flee, broader studies such as Bart and O'Brien (1985) indicate that only 15% of women who attempted to flee were raped. Running was also associated with a lower rate of injury (Kleck and Sayles, 1990; Siegel et al.,1989; Ullman and Knight, 1991).

Forceful physical resistance was an extremely successful strategy. The completed rape rate dropped to between 45% and 14% when the
rapist's attempt was met with violent physical force (Kleck and Sayles, 1990; Siegel et al., 1989; Ullman and Knight, 1992; Zoucha-Jensen and Coyne, 1993). Striking was more successful than pushing or wrestling (Quinsey and Upfold, 1985). Physical resistance also appears to be more effective when assault occurs outdoors (Quinsey and Upfold, 1985).

Women are sometimes advised that fighting back will increase their risk of injury. There are two problems with this argument.

First, research shows that physical resistance does not cause further injury to the resister. While there is a correlation between resistance
and a somewhat higher rate of physical injury (at most 3%) (Kleck and Sayles, 1990; Marchbanks et al., 1990; Siegel et al.,1989), researchers who examined the sequence of events found that injury usually occurred before resistance. In other words, resisters were not injured because they had resisted: rather, being injured motivated them to fight back (Quinsey and Upfold, 1985). After the initial injury, forceful resistance did not increase the resister's risk of further damage.

Second, this argument overlooks the fact that a woman who does not resist is virtually guaranteed to suffer the emotional and physical injury
of the rape itself. Even when resisters are injured, the injury is typically much less severe than a completed rape would have been (Kleck and Sayles, 1990; Marchbanks et al., 1990; Siegel et al., 1989; Ullman and Knight, 1991). Of those 40% of resisters who suffered physical damage, only 7% suffered injury as severe as a dislodged tooth. A woman who fights back incurs no demonstrable chance of additional injury, but she gains a 55-86% chance of avoiding rape altogether (Kleck and Sayles, 1990).

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~tellner/sd/Review.html

 

Ladies, also be aware that in some states, a woman must be able to show "earnest resistance" to even attempt to prosecute! As in, "if you don't fight back, you weren't really raped."

 

Forgive me, but it angers me to hear ANYONE say "I can't fight back/there's no way I could overpower a man." It's bullshit, akin to the same crap people say that "I can't get fit/workout/be healthy". 

 

Of course you won't if that's you attitude.

 

Fun facts:

1. Ear – It takes approximately 8lbs of pressure to rip off ahuman ear.
2. Eyes - The eyes are not necessarily attacked for removal as they can “pop†out from a fall or a serious blow to the head.  In combat the best and easiest thing to do is scratch the cornea and achieving this is easy.  
3. Throat – Crushing the human throat takes roughly that same amount of pressure as crushing an empty soda can.
4. Collar bone – Approximately 8lbs of force to snap this bone.
5. Elbow joint – Breaking the elbow joint take between 5-8lbs of force.
6. Knee joint – Putting direct force against the joint in the knee can be devastating, Breaking this joint takes approximately 15lbs of
   pressure.

http://socyberty.com/military/how-much-force-does-it-take-to-break/

 

Notice numbers 1, 4, and 5.  That is roughly the same amount of effort to pick up a gallon of water.

 

I thought we were nerds who liked facts and sciencey kinda stuff?

 

Whilst I was unable to find a citation, I recall an article from a few years back where a 9 year old fought off the pedo by stabbing him in the eye with a pencil, then escaping.

 

 

Fight back, every time.

[Mordechaj]

Those values are true for unopposed force, I guess.

When you try to brake someone's elbow it'll be his arm strength + 5-8 lb, no?

 

 

So.....

 

Always fight back. Period, full stop.

 

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~tellner/sd/Review.html

 

Ladies, also be aware that in some states, a woman must be able to show "earnest resistance" to even attempt to prosecute! As in, "if you don't fight back, you weren't really raped."

 

Forgive me, but it angers me to hear ANYONE say "I can't fight back/there's no way I could overpower a man." It's bullshit, akin to the same crap people say that "I can't get fit/workout/be healthy". 

 

Of course you won't if that's you attitude.

 

Fun facts:

1. Ear – It takes approximately 8lbs of pressure to rip off ahuman ear.
2. Eyes - The eyes are not necessarily attacked for removal as they can “pop†out from a fall or a serious blow to the head.  In combat the best and easiest thing to do is scratch the cornea and achieving this is easy.  
3. Throat – Crushing the human throat takes roughly that same amount of pressure as crushing an empty soda can.
4. Collar bone – Approximately 8lbs of force to snap this bone.
5. Elbow joint – Breaking the elbow joint take between 5-8lbs of force.
6. Knee joint – Putting direct force against the joint in the knee can be devastating, Breaking this joint takes approximately 15lbs of
   pressure.

http://socyberty.com/military/how-much-force-does-it-take-to-break/

 

Notice numbers 1, 4, and 5.  That is roughly the same amount of effort to pick up a gallon of water.

 

I thought we were nerds who liked facts and sciencey kinda stuff?

 

Whilst I was unable to find a citation, I recall an article from a few years back where a 9 year old fought off the pedo by stabbing him in the eye with a pencil, then escaping.

 

 

Fight back, every time.

[Twentythree]

You're right, you are guessing. I don't guess, I look for facts.

 

Certainly, trying to arm bar someone would be an opposed strength test. Whereas ripping off their ear, gouging their eyes, or a hammerfist to the collarbone would be an unopposed beyond an attempted block, dodge, or other escape.

 

Currently, I am unaware of any way to build up the tensile strength of one's skin.

[crockagator]

Ok so I haven't read all the post but I've read enough and I wanted to put my 2 cents in.

 

Rape is about power.

 

I was rape a few years ago by a friend of mine... Well I thought he was anyways.

At that time I couldn't defend myself because I wasn't in a good mental place. I had just gotten out of my first real relationship and he had been mentally ripping me apart for a year and some change. 

When it happened I blamed myself (still do) because I could have stopped it if I had done something anything but I was so scared and in disbelief that another terrible thing was happening to me. As soon as he got really forceful I froze. Up to that point I had made it very clear I didn't want this and had pushed him away repeatedly. I just broke. 

physically I could have gotten away if I hadn't frozen up.

 

I'm in a better place now and I know that no one who attacks me will walk away alive if they don't take my warnings.

but that's just me.

[Mordechaj]

You're right, you are guessing. I don't guess, I look for facts.

 

Certainly, trying to arm bar someone would be an opposed strength test. Whereas ripping off their ear, gouging their eyes, or a hammerfist to the collarbone would be an unopposed beyond an attempted block, dodge, or other escape.

 

Currently, I am unaware of any way to build up the tensile strength of one's skin.

You also seem to be full of yourself.

I believe I didn't mention eyes, ears or the collarbone in my post.

 

Taking out someone's elbow, or damaging the knee, is more about using body momentum and angles, than raw strength. I would feel very confident about being able to break/damage someone's elbow or arm, by locking their arm straight and then ramming it with my shoulder with bodyweight behind it. Joint attacks do require training, though, in a way that a desperate gouge at someone's eyes or balls does not.

 

 

You can condition hands or feet through repeated exposure to injury - toughening them up by running barefoot, or repeatedly practising strikes on a sandbag/punching bag. Or just plain manual labour. Building up callouses, essentially. Its not something you really want to worry about except for toughening up particular areas for a particular purpose.

I agree it's easier playing it smart and using body momentum and angles, but it's still force vs force. It does not mean you have to exert less force in total, it just means you'll do it easier.

 

While eyes and ears are easily made illegal targets in  organised fights - I can't remember much collarbone fractures in them. Only one that comes to the mind is written in Iliad in fact.

And you have pretty strong instincts to protect your head, especially your eyes.

I'm just trying to point that it's not as easy as "Go for the eyes Boo!". People fight since before we came down the tree, and collarbone fractures and ripped off ears are not on the most common list of injuries. I somehow suspect it's not because nobody had the idea up until now to try that.

 

And Athena is right - joint locks are somewhat complicated manoeuvres that require competition ad nauseam, until they became part of your muscle memory - to be replicated in situations when you can't think clearly.

[Twentythree]

Mordechaj, what irked me was there was no comment on the demonstrable facts, via the cited scientific study that fighting back, hell even forceful verbal resistance dramatically reduces the completion of rape. 

 

I enjoy debates.  It is a common tactic to attempt to discredit someone's argument via pointing out something small, and ignoring everything else. Like skipping past proven scientific facts for "it's alot harder to break someone's arm than you're making it out to be."

 

I don't guess, I run off of facts. If that means I'm full of myself/rude, so be it.

 

I'"m just trying to point that it's not as easy as "Go for the eyes Boo!".

And I'm just pointing out that defending one's self IN ANY MANNER dramatically reduces completion of rape.
 

 collarbone fractures and ripped off ears are not on the most common list of injuries.

Citation please.

 

 

Also, someone distracted by you trying to claw at or stab at their eyes has probably been distracted nicely from trying to grope your
breasts, pin you, or get into your pants.

My point exactly.

 

 

You can condition hands or feet through repeated exposure to injury-toughening them up by running barefoot, or repeatedly practising
strikeson a sandbag/punching bag. Or just plain manual labour. Building up callouses, essentially. Its not something you really want to worry
about except for toughening up particular areas for a particular purpose.

I meant ears....

 

Look, the whole point was to show the evidence that:

 

A: Fighting back is very, very likely to stop an attempted rape;

B: The ease in which certain targets can be attacked for great affect.

 

Certainly, I recommend women take some form of self defense. Or, you know, buy a gun and get a CCW which is legal in the US. 

 

But I will not stand for any "I can't do anything b/c I'm a 120lb woman." It's bullshit, a lie, and a guaranteed way to make one's self into a victim. And if anyone has a problem with that I don't care. Nothing will ever get me to budge an inch from that position.

 

Rape is a very difficult topic to discuss. It's extremly emotional, and painful.

 

Paragraph edited for personal reasons

 

In EMT school they taught us the 4 levels of action. Each is better than the previous, and at minimum, do # 2.

1. Do nothing.

2. Do the wrong thing at the wrong time.

3. Do the right thing at the wrong time.

4. Do the right thing at the the right time.

 

Do anything will always be better than doing nothing.