Body image and other social issues for men

[Zorch]

I've got 2 things that I find interesting that I get a lot from other men. The first one I'll call the 'Grip Reflex'. Many times, when I meet another guy, ,they will try to crush my hand. You know, go for the deep grip and squeeze hard. I find this particularly true with men who will admit to being former athletes. I've learned to spot it coming, since most guys cock their arm funny in order to get a better grip. One good squeeze back (just equal to theirs) usually seems to do the trick. I find this with all social classes, but (surprisingly) quite common at church on Sunday morning. (Note, I don't have bulging biceps or anything, just a big chest. Wife says I have Popeye arms, with my forearms realatively 'ripped')

This is something that goes on with guys regardless of weight - the whole alpha male/establishment of social heirarchy thing - since civilization has evolved past punching each other in the face to establish dominance, the handshake is a central part of this. But yes, it's annoying when someone feels the need to try and crush your hand. But it's really just someone trying to establish himself as "top dog". If you know the guy in question, you can probably guess if he's one of the folks that will try to use the Crushing Handshake of Doom to establish his position.

The other thing I get a lot is the typical measuring contest. A little chat and they almost inevitably ask if I workout. Seldom ask what exercises I do. But then they launch into a recounting of what they can/have done in the last year. I've heard some really difficult to believe claims about how much various guys can lift. Course none of them have time now to do that, or they hurt something or.... Best opening line I've gotten from another guy "So what do you do when you aren't working out?"

This really the same as with the handshakes - people are trying, one way or another to establish their position within the heirarchy.

What have you guys experienced?

There's one guy in my department that always feels the need to comment when I'm at a meeting/other group function, and opt to pass on the doughnuts/cookies/chips/whatever other junk food happens to have been ordered for the meeting. Honestly, I'm working on gaining a bit of weight right now and am not being as strict with my diet as I sometimes am, but I also don't feel any obligation to eat according to others' expectations. The "what, this food isn't healthy enough for you?" remarks when I pass on the junky snacks really get old. It's not acceptable to get preachy when people eat junk - but somehow the reverse doesn't apply when people eat healthy/opt to pass on the junk? What a world of double standards we live in.

[azsf]

The thing is, that picture shouldn't be "looking good." It looks unhealthy

If those captions tearing down brad pitt were about health id have less issues with it. but that's not what the photo is about; it's about tearing down his physique as not good enough. its the bodybuilding / weightlifting community trying to make themselves feel better by cutting someone else down (and a bunch of skinny guys at the same time). in australia we call that 'tall poppy syndrome', and it's a bitch.

ironically, this is the problem that the womens thread was made to address: people giving you shit over your progress (hence the 'skinny bitch'). this the male equivalent.

[dshale]

If those captions tearing down brad pitt were about health id have less issues with it. but that's not what the photo is about; it's about tearing down his physique as not good enough. its the bodybuilding / weightlifting community trying to make themselves feel better by cutting someone else down (and a bunch of skinny guys at the same time). in australia we call that 'tall poppy syndrome', and it's a bitch.

ironically, this is the problem that the womens thread was made to address: people giving you shit over your progress (hence the 'skinny bitch'). this the male equivalent.

But we're guys. We're suppose to give each other hell. That's what we do. We typically don't strive for better when that's missing.

I am not talking being brutal. More along this line: http://artofmanliness.com/2012/07/20/getting-tough-with-yourself/

[azsf]

you missed the point of that article so much it hurts :/ the big difference is in context and intent; those marines were mates who'd been through hell together, and they were trying to keep their spirits up by sparring and joking. images like that brad pitt one are made to be derogatory, and to ridicule that body shape (and people who aim for that body shape). they are not made to support the struggles of men trying to lose weight, or get fit, or even get strong. they're made so a bunch of other men who buy into a certain training ideal can feel superior and laugh at everyone else.

ironically, fight club towed the same line (see bus scene: is that what a man looks like). but it was meant to be a satire that took the piss out of hyper masculinity and male culture in general.

[Kewilson]

Fourthed!

I have it all...chest hair, back hair, shoulder hair...I am a goddamned wookie for christ's sake! I can't even wear a t-shirt (not v-neck) and be free from the stray hairs making an appearance!

Fifthed... fifted? Fived? Whatever.

My legs and chest are those of a wookie. I will occasionally trim them down to "still hairy but not freakishly so" levels just because I dislike that amount of hairiness on myself. Seriously, I shed. People think I have a dog hidden somewhere, but it's just me when I don't trim for a few months.

More fitness-related, my negative body image was one of the main reasons I eventually threw myself into fitness. At my max weight (~300lbs at 6'0''), I was uncomfortable in my own skin all the time. I was always the biggest guy in the room by a wide (heh!) margin. Forget seeing me go shirtless; you could barely get me into anything shy of a fairly baggy hoodie, even in the middle of summer. I definitely gave more than a few well-meaning relatives the death-stare for saying I would be more comfortable if I stripped down, but the truth is that back then I wouldn't have been.

I'm much more comfortable now; I can routinely be seen huffing around the city in t-shirts and polo shirts. A big part of the comfort increase is just the fact that I no longer stick out in a crowd or on the street as being especially fat; I'm about as big as a random, slightly overweight guy you might pass on the street.

[Saoirse]

... I'm about as big as a random, slightly overweight guy you might pass on the street.

...with really nice hair.

[Guest Snake McClain]

; I'm about as big as a random, slightly overweight guy you might pass on the street.

...with really nice hair.

agreed. he does have nice hair.

[Guest Snake McClain]

first. this is hilarious to me.

second. not mocking him because "looking good isnt even good enough anymore". mocking the physique because it is not one that is strong. it is not balanced. it is purely aesthetic.

third, chairohkey...your avatar photo...you're a f***ing monster.

[RaeVynn]

I'm a bit beyond the demographic of women that most of you guys are interested in attracting - but I've always been attracted to the nice, open smile, and slightly cuddly/teddybear-ish types. Not fat, not really "chubby", but a bit of soft covering the muscles.

As Dave Barry said, paraphrased, "Fat is good. It keeps bones from knocking together during sex"

[dshale]

you missed the point of that article so much it hurts :/ the big difference is in context and intent; those marines were mates who'd been through hell together, and they were trying to keep their spirits up by sparring and joking. images like that brad pitt one are made to be derogatory, and to ridicule that body shape (and people who aim for that body shape). they are not made to support the struggles of men trying to lose weight, or get fit, or even get strong. they're made so a bunch of other men who buy into a certain training ideal can feel superior and laugh at everyone else.

ironically, fight club towed the same line (see bus scene: is that what a man looks like). but it was meant to be a satire that took the piss out of hyper masculinity and male culture in general.

Have you ever been on a team? You will always get someone to push you a little harder (or a lot) by comments that can be harsh. I am only getting a little bit of that now and not near as often as I need. I am suffering because of it. We have all become hyper sensitive and afraid of pissing someone off or hurting their feelings that men are becoming too soft. If all you hear is how great you are doing then you will never live up to your potential. It's a fine line letting them know when they have done something good and pressing more out of them.

I really wasn't directing my comment toward that whole Brad Pitt not good enough thing as much as a comment about being a guy.

I would like to add that the biggest things most of us have problems with are the hand we were dealt. Be it body hair, height, lack of hair, etc. We know we can change weight and build (to a point) but that other stuff is just there unless we pay someone to fix it for us. I would love to be 6'2" and weigh a very solid 225 but that was just not in the cards.

[Jcannon98188]

You know, I think the people who are making fun of him for not being strong, are ignoring something rather big here. One of the number 1 reason that many people come to NerdFitness to do it to "Look Good Naked". Many are tired of being overweight/underweight/outofshape and want to look better. Personally, that is the boat I am in. I don't want to be able to lift 350lbs (Ok that would be cool, but it's by no means my goal) I just want to make myself look good. I think that the body type that Brad Pitt has in this picture looks good, especially since I am a skinny guy myself. It doesn't matter if you lift 350lbs or 250lbs, only thing that matters is if you are happy with where you are at this current time. People who are making fun of him are saying that they are somehow better than him? Or that their way is right. Hate to break it to you, you are not any better than Brad Pitt is. You are not any more of a man, you are just different than him. If you can't figure this out, then it is you that is the asshole, and not Brad Pitt (Ok, I don't really know Brad Pitt, he could be an a-hole but you get my drift).

I like how this thread was talking about body issues with men, and people starting making fun of people's body types. Cool story.

[chasely]

Have you ever been on a team? You will always get someone to push you a little harder (or a lot) by comments that can be harsh. I am only getting a little bit of that now and not near as often as I need. I am suffering because of it. We have all become hyper sensitive and afraid of pissing someone off or hurting their feelings that men are becoming too soft. If all you hear is how great you are doing then you will never live up to your potential. It's a fine line letting them know when they have done something good and pressing more out of them.

I really wasn't directing my comment toward that whole Brad Pitt not good enough thing as much as a comment about being a guy.

Since your original reply was in the context of the Brad Pitt photo, I'll agree with azsf's original point, but I'll address the points you made in the above quote.

I agree that everyone tends to be far more politically correct than they need to be. We'd all be better off if we were more frank with each other. However, I don't understand what you mean with men becoming "too soft". It seems as you're assuming that all men benefit from the same types of encouragement or motivations. The valid point that azsf was making about the Brad Pitt pic is that it's just a way of one community (in this case weight lifters) to feel better about themselves by tearing another community of people down (people that look lik Brad Pitt in fight club and those that find that attractive). I don't see on a man-to-man level how this applies.

Let's say I have a friend who has let himself go in the last couple years. Perhaps he's seen me getting up early and going to the gym. Our conversation goes like this:

Friend: Hey chasely, I was wondering if you could give me some pointers on working out.

Me: Sure. What did you think you wanted to do.

F: I'm not sure. I'm getting sick of being unhealthy and am looking to lose some weight

M: Well I've found that weightlifting mixed in with sports has worked for me. I've got these resources you could look at.

F: Thanks, I'll look at those and see if I have any questions for you.

Frankly, I don't know how else that conversation can go. Should I tell my friend "Yeah, you've really let yourself go." I could, but he already knows that, and up until this point he didn't seem to have the motivation to seek out on a path of lowing weight. In my view, no one will do anything unless they have the internal motivation to do so. I don't see where demeaning or insulting each other helps with motivation, unless you explicitly tell someone that that's what you need for motivations.

As a general rule, I've found that guys will be mean to each other but not mean it. Girls will be nice to each other and not mean it.

[chairohkey]

All men should aspire to be strong, healthy, and happy regardless of what Hollywood, society, and especially the internet says. With that said if you still either look like or want to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club wake up and please go eat and lift something.

[Daverin2112]

Like I said, if you genuinely feel it looks good, then more power to you, because it is you who needs to be comfortable with how you look. I, myself, have always been a "form follows function" type of person, and that physique just screams of too much concern with being skinny, and not enough with being at a healthy weight and then hopefully also being otherwise fit. However, I have not been skinny for a good few years now (I hate you metabolisn), so I probably have forgotten how much that distinction can blur for those who are naturally highly metabolic and quite skinny.

[azsf]

not mocking him because "looking good isnt even good enough anymore". mocking the physique because it is not one that is strong

mocking the physique because it is not one that is strong

mocking the physique

in a thread about male body issues. what the hell is wrong with you?

Have you ever been on a team? You will always get someone to push you a little harder

Sure have, and there are two types of people on a team. The ones who who motivate each other, and those that tear each other down. You can motivate someone by 'being mean', but you need to have a close bond with that person for it to work. telling someone to push harder, work through the pain, don't quit now, that's motivating. calling someone skinny or drug-fucked, mocking their body shape OR their goals, that's tearing them down. one makes you a man, the other makes you an asshole.

With that said if you still either look like or want to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club wake up and please go eat and lift something.

Why? because being lithe is so freaking terrible? I'm a tall, skinny dude who focuses on bodyweight training to supplement parkour and capoeira, i have no need or desire to go bear mode. i look smaller than brad pit in that photo in almost every way (except height i guess) but i can squat over my bodyweight, deadlift 1.6, do handstand pushups, cartwheel both sides, muscle up, precision jump 3+ meters, run 10k, swim, cycle, rock climb, kickbox, dance, and fuck. in what way does the size of my biceps make me less manly? less healthy? less happy?

TLDR: if you make fun of someone for their body shape, or their desired body shape, you are an asshole.

[PGurung]

This is not the NF community i know. Let's stop with the hate, even if someone's goal is to look like Brad Pitt they'll still be healthier than majority of people in America.

[chasely]

even if someone's goal is to look like Brad Pitt they'll still be healthier than majority of people in America.

This is what I thought when I heard someone say that Crossfit makes women look great and makes men look like women.

[Leimanu]

What is it you guys say about what I'm doing? /lurking? Well...lurk lurk.

Pretty interesting conversation here. Especially into see where's everyone at in the fitness journey and how it's changing their worldview, even if this is a conversation about personal appearance.

And just to throw something in from the fairer sex....a great personality goes a long way, and that's what people really see

[Guest Snake McClain]

You know, I think the people who are making fun of him for not being strong, are ignoring something rather big here. One of the number 1 reason that many people come to NerdFitness to do it to "Look Good Naked". Many are tired of being overweight/underweight/outofshape and want to look better. Personally, that is the boat I am in. I don't want to be able to lift 350lbs (Ok that would be cool, but it's by no means my goal) I just want to make myself look good. I think that the body type that Brad Pitt has in this picture looks good, especially since I am a skinny guy myself. It doesn't matter if you lift 350lbs or 250lbs, only thing that matters is if you are happy with where you are at this current time. People who are making fun of him are saying that they are somehow better than him? Or that their way is right. Hate to break it to you, you are not any better than Brad Pitt is. You are not any more of a man, you are just different than him. If you can't figure this out, then it is you that is the asshole, and not Brad Pitt (Ok, I don't really know Brad Pitt, he could be an a-hole but you get my drift).

I like how this thread was talking about body issues with men, and people starting making fun of people's body types. Cool story.

i stand corrected and now feel like an arse. apologies to anyone out there that i upset.

seriously i wont dog on anyone who may look different or have different goals.

[dshale]

in a thread about male body issues. what the hell is wrong with you?

Sure have, and there are two types of people on a team. The ones who who motivate each other, and those that tear each other down. You can motivate someone by 'being mean', but you need to have a close bond with that person for it to work. telling someone to push harder, work through the pain, don't quit now, that's motivating. calling someone skinny or drug-fucked, mocking their body shape OR their goals, that's tearing them down. one makes you a man, the other makes you an asshole.

Why? because being lithe is so freaking terrible? I'm a tall, skinny dude who focuses on bodyweight training to supplement parkour and capoeira, i have no need or desire to go bear mode. i look smaller than brad pit in that photo in almost every way (except height i guess) but i can squat over my bodyweight, deadlift 1.6, do handstand pushups, cartwheel both sides, muscle up, precision jump 3+ meters, run 10k, swim, cycle, rock climb, kickbox, dance, and fuck. in what way does the size of my biceps make me less manly? less healthy? less happy?

TLDR: if you make fun of someone for their body shape, or their desired body shape, you are an asshole.

Congratulation on your accomplishments. I am not attaching the very lean nor equating size to strength. You should be proud.

I'll take a step back and hope to get this thread back to a more cordial discusion. I am a bigger guy. I get the "grip of death" a lot. Especially with salesmen. I had surgery about a decade ago I have never fully rehabilitated from. Because of that I have had three separate hernias and about a dozen scars. I have pain issues that is starting to affect my posture. I work my butt off just to get a setback from the surgical mesh inside me pulling my insides causing pain that lasts for days or even weeks. So yes, I know a thing or two about this subject. I have gained a lot of weight and now I am trying whatever it takes to get myself back. I can tell you thing, if I could eliminate the pain the rest would be easy. It affects every aspect of my life.

[Wolverine]

I have issues regarding my size. I'm not skinny but I am a shorter guy (5'7") and being bombarded with "man = big and burly" messages gets pretty damn old.

[161803398874989]

All men should aspire to be strong, healthy, and happy regardless of what Hollywood, society, and especially the internet says.

I concur.

With that said if you still either look like or want to look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club wake up and please go eat and lift something.

...but that's just what I think. I'm not even going to bother to try and convince anyone shouldn't look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club, because they won't listen anyway. And honestly I don't give the slightest of shits about what anyone else thinks or wants.

[Daverin2112]

This is not the NF community i know. Let's stop with the hate, even if someone's goal is to look like Brad Pitt they'll still be healthier than majority of people in America.

All too true, and a much more important fact than anything regarding what we think of what looks good!

[Waldo]

The Brad Pitt in Fight Club thing to me is a lot like the toning thing and really nothing personal.

There are a lot of misconceptions out there when it comes to bodies, goals, and recomposition. Toning as it is usually used is one of those misconceptions. The most egregious are younger women who lose a lot of weight then think a week or two with some pink dumbbells will tone them up. Here it is to the point where people don't use the T word since it basically implies some screwed up misconceptions that are so far out of whack that it is better to ditch the whole toning concept entirely instead of correcting the misconceptions.

The whole thing against Brad Pitt in Fight Club isn't so much the body image in particular, it is a reaction against the illusion of strength created by leanness. Many people have a difficulty discerning whether the quantity of muscle is low or high and if they are strong or weak when shown a lean individual; no matter how strong or weak they are, the muscles all clearly show. You see other facets of this illusion in action in the BBing world, where many will purposely avoid any ab/core work to have as small of a waist as possible in order to make their V shape more prominent, a smaller waist makes the upper body look bigger. That image would be less an object of ridicule if people didn't think that he looked strong.

Jabbing that Brad Pitt image is similar to heavy lifters making fun of pink dumbbell toners. In the end the heavy lifters and the pink dumbbell toners have the same goals. For the most part those who would train to look like Pitt in that photo would end up training the same as those who mock it, the ones who are being mocked can't see through the strength illusion that leanness creates thus would end up training totally wrong to achieve that look.

But by periphery a lot of people take it personal when that look is mocked, even though it isn't the look per se but the illusion it creates that is poked fun at.

[CyningaDena]

(1) I've found that when I start throwing vitriol at a certain group of people (e.g., curlbros), at root it comes from a certain amount of body-image jealousy and insecurity. It's like I have to constantly point at his calves because omg those delts make me feel so tiny. That's my experience, anyway. Other people may rag on folks they've never met for different reasons.

(2) azsf for president. I'm glad we defused the confrontational direction the thread might have been heading, and props to everyone who de-escalated like true gentlemen, but I think his points are absolutely germane and important to address in this very thread. For reasons that I kind of tried to address in point #1.

(3) In fitness communities in general, and to a certain (much less asshatter) extent in the NF community, there seems to be an underlying assumption that "real men" lift bigger every day and get huge. It's probably related to the culture-wide phenomenon that considers it more masculine to occupy more space, and feminine to occupy less. (Wider area of gesturing, sitting with legs splayed, shoulders back, booming voice, etc.) When I'm at the gym, I often look at the Warrior-type guys and have to remind myself: His body is not my body. His goals are not my goals. His sweat is not my sweat.

(4) My first celebrity crush was Tom Selleck; I would clothesline housewives to get at Mike Rowe. It hurts me inside that it's become the vogue to wax down every man like he's a swimmer. I wish I had a full Colt-model V of hair instead of just the Batman symbol up top with a trail.