Body image and other social issues for men

[Flex Luthor]

@Daverin2112 I was mainly talking about the powerlifter mentality about lifting big and eating big but you are right. As a society in general, I think there's been a shift towards lean body types like the Brad Pitt/Ryan Reynolds look being ideal. Again you are absolutely right that none of these ideals are wrong. We have to shift our perspective to that of others. Powerlifters don't want to look like Brad Pitt so why should we criticize them for it? Bodybuilders don't want to lift a thousand pounds, so why is it a bad thing if they can't? The only time I will tell someone to change the way they're doing something is if it conflicts with their goals, which will happen sometimes.

[Zorch]

Others have alluded to it here, but I'd like to tackle the issue directly:

One of the most powerful factors impacting body image is our environment - the way we were treated growing up.

It's important to have supportive parents/family. Unsupportive/negative family can definitely have a profoundly harmful effect on one's body image - but conversely, supportive family itself can do little to ensure a positive self/body-image. Ultimately when growing up, while the media is a factor, it's the approval of one's peers - both friends and those in whom one is sexually interested - that have the most profound effect on one's body image. Images in the media have an impact that's primarily indirect - its impact on the behavior/perception of others and their resulting actions is the main pathway through which it affects one's image of oneself.

I'll put myself out there as an example. While I had a supportive home environment growing up, my friends were not always as supportive as they could be, and I didn't have a formal relationship until after college(as I found out after high school, it wasn't due to lack of interest in me, so much as my failure to take advantage of the opportunities that were present). While I was in pretty good, albeit not spectacular shape in high school, I developed a negative body image out of this situation - and it's something that's taken me a long time to deal with(and to an extent, I deal with it even today).

On the other hand, there are plenty of people out there when, looking back, I can see that they were less "attractive" by admittedly somewhat-arbitrary standards of physical attractiveness, but they were much happier and more comfortable in their own skin - and the difference seems to be the level of support they got from their friends, and greater participation in productive relationships in general. While the media has the power to shape others' attitudes, ultimately it is how we are treated by the people around us that forms our image of ourselves, as we come to associate who we are(including what we look like) with being accepted/not accepted. This is sometimes unfortunate, but it's reality.

I think dissociation of "who I am/what I look like" from "how others treat me/what they say about me" is an important part of getting over this - people that surround themselves with supportive, positive people tend to be happier and more successful, regardless of whether they're skinny, carrying a few extra pounds, or somewhere in between.

[Daverin2112]

@Daverin2112 I was mainly talking about the powerlifter mentality about lifting big and eating big but you are right. As a society in general, I think there's been a shift towards lean body types like the Brad Pitt/Ryan Reynolds look being ideal. Again you are absolutely right that none of these ideals are wrong. We have to shift our perspective to that of others. Powerlifters don't want to look like Brad Pitt so why should we criticize them for it? Bodybuilders don't want to lift a thousand pounds, so why is it a bad thing if they can't? The only time I will tell someone to change the way they're doing something is if it conflicts with their goals, which will happen sometimes.

Yep, totally agreed, and I figured you were referencing the powerlifters there.

[161803398874989]

As for the "I can't get big"-issue. I'm going to be an ass and say that's not true. You can if you really want to. Unless you do crap like 2 average man's worth of food in one sitting and then go out for dinner and have a nice steak, you definitely can eat more. I'm not even remotely overweight and I can do that.

Whether you want it or not, that's a second. Maybe you don't want to go through that, if eating a lot isn't your kind of thing. Thing is, if you're skinny you're either not eating a lot or moving around a lot. You can't eat 4000 calories a day while doing virtually nothing and end up staying skinny.

[161803398874989]

As for the "I can't get big"-issue: that's not true. Unless you daily do crap like 2 average man's worth of food in one sitting and then go out for dinner and have a nice steak, you definitely can eat more. I'm not even remotely overweight and I can do that.

Whether you want it or not, that's something else entirely. Maybe you don't want to go through that, if eating a lot isn't your kind of thing and that's perfectly okay. Thing is, if you're skinny you're either not eating a lot or moving around a lot. You can't eat 4000 calories a day while doing virtually nothing and end up staying skinny.

So, please, stop saying "I can't get big". You can. It's just hard work.

[Zima]

I do not understand complaints from skinny guys, especially those over 6ft. First of all, height is what women want, and it gives people the illusion of power, maturity, etc. There's a reason the average CEO is taller than the average person.

Second, being skinny is ideal, unless you want to look like a powerlifter(which you won't). For you, low body fat is a given. Eating below maintenance is not fun, and that's what people with average genetics have to put up with to look "shredded". All you have to do is eat plenty of food to acquire some muscle mass. Also, clothes generally fit much better on people with skinny builds.

And finally, this doesn't really matter, since I'm a guy, but I find slim figures more aesthetic and elegant. There's a reason models are tall and skinny and girls drool over the fightclub Brad Pitt. I think you should try to appreciate your own genetics.

This is coming from a guy who's 5'8 with average genetics - I'd take tall and skinner than average over my genetics any day. Or even skinnier than average by itself.

[cianalas]

We may be talking about different versions of "skinny." here. I'm willing to bet that most of us skinny people looked more like Christian Bale in The Machinist than Brad Pitt in Fight Club. That type of skinny has plenty of self-esteem issues put on-top of it.

[Zima]

We may be talking about different versions of "skinny." here. I'm willing to bet that most of us skinny people looked more like Christian Bale in The Machinist than Brad Pitt in Fight Club. That type of skinny has plenty of self-esteem issues put on-top of it.

That's what I'm referring to, actually. Tall and skinny as all hell is still a pretty sweet deal. The road from Christian Bale in The Machinist to Brad Pitt in Fight Club or even Christian Bale in American Psycho is simple, and filled with lots of food. However, even without that added muscle you'll still be considered attractive by a good bunch of people ie twilight vampire guy, various "alternative" models, etc.

The road from average joe to single digit body fat, however, is a tedious process filled with self-denial.

[azsf]

I do not understand complaints from skinny guys, especially those over 6ft.

grass is always greener i guess. seems like you think that being tall is the 'ideal', so you think that anyone who is tall fits that ideal and therefore doesn't have any problems? sadly, that's just not the case.

[Zima]

Well, it's not ideal "to me." It's the single physical factor women generally agree on as far as how attractive a man is - plenty of research has been done on this subject. There's also the statistic of average CEO being 6 ft tall rather than 5.10. There's also the statistics showing that taller men wind up with less insecurities and associated issues. Ever hear of the Napoleon syndrome?

I'm not saying tall people don't have problems - even the most beautiful people can be insecure, and plenty of unattractive people seem to be doing just fine. I'm just pointing out that from the standpoint of society and the average person, they actually have an advantage. If anything, my post is a reminder of that.

[azsf]

It's the single physical factor women generally agree on as far as how attractive a man is

Go back a page or so and read that girl's post on guys feeling short. the average girl is smaller than you, so you'll still be taller. 'tall' is essentially a subjective thing. a 6ft CEO is more than half a foot shorter than me, i don't consider that to be tall at all. I'm at the point where the difference between 5'10" and 6' is unnoticeable.

oh and this:

I'm not saying tall people don't have problems

is directly contradicted by this

I do not understand complaints from skinny guys, especially those over 6ft.

Please remember that this is a thread about body issues, and everyone has them. rather than coming in and trying to say "stop complaining, you're tall and that's statistically better than being short" maybe just say "being tall would be great because of these statistics". saying "stop complaining" or "i dont understand tall/skinny complaints" makes you sound like you're trying to belittle other peoples issues and make yours the most important. and that just turns people off entirely and is against the idea of this thread.

it's also a main signifier of short man syndrome. food for thought.

[Zima]

Go back a page or so and read that girl's post on guys feeling short. the average girl is smaller than you, so you'll still be taller. 'tall' is essentially a subjective thing. a 6ft CEO is more than half a foot shorter than me, i don't consider that to be tall at all. I'm at the point where the difference between 5'10" and 6' is unnoticeable.

oh and this:

is directly contradicted by this

Please remember that this is a thread about body issues, and everyone has them. rather than coming in and trying to say "stop complaining, you're tall and that's statistically better than being short" maybe just say "being tall would be great because of these statistics". saying "stop complaining" or "i dont understand tall/skinny complaints" makes you sound like you're trying to belittle other peoples issues and make yours the most important. and that just turns people off entirely and is against the idea of this thread.

it's also a main signifier of short man syndrome. food for thought.

I said things in a way that would console ME if I were in such a position. If I said I was insecure about a particular feature of mine, and someone told me "You know, that's actually not something to complain about. Statistically speaking, that's actually a very good feature to have, and most people, myself included, find it to be a positive thing. Also, something you may be unaware of - that feature actually makes getting a fit looking physique less difficult. Basically, many people would say you've hit the jackpot in that regard," - if someone said that to me, I might think - "Well, I still don't like it, but at least other people apparently do, so that's good."

I understand you interpreted this in a much more negative way because I did not have word it in a way that appeals to you, but I hope you can see that my intentions were good. You're also completely missing the fact that being skinny, not necessarily tall, was one of my core points. But of course, you can easily point out anecdotal evidence from this thread where someone said they prefer guys with some fat on them, therefore somehow my point would be invalid and I'm being a bad person by suggesting such a thing.

[Saoirse]

As a woman, this conversation has been really interesting. I just wanted to pipe in (yes, again) and mention that I, as a woman, actually prefer a man closer to my own height. My husband is 6'2", a good 8" taller than myself, and it can make some things...ummm...err...interesting. I do wonder sometimes if the logistics of certain activities would be less difficult if my mate was closer to my height. i also relate better to people who aren't towering over me. So if "women want me" is the standard for your ideal, rest assured that women have quite a variation of tastes.

Also: it sucks when our insecurities are dismissed, even if the person doing it means well.

[azsf]

I understand you interpreted this in a much more negative way because I did not have word it in a way that appeals to you, but I hope you can see that my intentions were good.

Actually i can't see that, as i stated above. Because you come across in a very different light due to how you phrase your posts. And you coupled almost every mention of "skinny" with "tall", so saying i missed the point doesn't exactly ring true. Anyway, if you weren't trying to be offensive, then i wont hound on you; just please stop telling people to 'stop complaining' or that something is 'not something to complain about'. everything else is fine, but this sort of phrasing sets you up to come across as being negative and makes the 'compliments' come across as backhanded.

But of course, you can easily point out anecdotal evidence from this thread where someone said they prefer guys with some fat on them, therefore somehow my point would be invalid and I'm being a bad person by suggesting such a thing.

you're not 'being a bad person' for suggesting that being tall or skinny has its advantages. you're 'being a bad person' by telling people they can't complain about their body issues in a thread about complaining about body issues. I understand saying things the way you would like to hear them, but that's not always going to work in a public environment. so to reiterate, the way you phrase yourself makes you sound like you are trying to belittle other peoples issues, please stop.

[PGurung]

I am an 5'7" and happy. Your genes are what they are, there is no point in wasting time complaining about it. You just have to make the best of what you have.

[Flex Luthor]

I do not understand complaints from skinny guys, especially those over 6ft. First of all, height is what women want, and it gives people the illusion of power, maturity, etc. There's a reason the average CEO is taller than the average person.

Second, being skinny is ideal, unless you want to look like a powerlifter(which you won't). For you, low body fat is a given. Eating below maintenance is not fun, and that's what people with average genetics have to put up with to look "shredded". All you have to do is eat plenty of food to acquire some muscle mass. Also, clothes generally fit much better on people with skinny builds.

And finally, this doesn't really matter, since I'm a guy, but I find slim figures more aesthetic and elegant. There's a reason models are tall and skinny and girls drool over the fightclub Brad Pitt. I think you should try to appreciate your own genetics.

This is coming from a guy who's 5'8 with average genetics - I'd take tall and skinner than average over my genetics any day. Or even skinnier than average by itself.

Let's clarify there is a gigantic difference between, well defined and skinny. When I was a sophomore in high school (when I began my journey) I was 5'8" and about 120lbs. A strong wind could have blown me over. Guys have to deal with body image issues from the media just like women do, they're just different issues. Women are supposed to be skinny and men are supposed to be muscular (according to the media). This is why I felt absolutely horrible about myself even when in reality there was nothing wrong with me. That's the root of men and women's issues. We aren't "ideal" (while still healthy of course) so there is something wrong with us.

[cianalas]

That's what I'm referring to, actually. Tall and skinny as all hell is still a pretty sweet deal. The road from Christian Bale in The Machinist to Brad Pitt in Fight Club or even Christian Bale in American Psycho is simple, and filled with lots of food. However, even without that added muscle you'll still be considered attractive by a good bunch of people ie twilight vampire guy, various "alternative" models, etc.

The road from average joe to single digit body fat, however, is a tedious process filled with self-denial.

It's a simple-ish road with the right training. Unfortunately, the exercise programs that are tailored for the majority of people actively work against ectomorphs, since the cardio aspects kill any chance of growth we've got. So after spending years trying these different programs with no real change in body mass is still a tedious path filled with plenty of frustration. It's just a different one than most people have. And usually complaining about not being able to gain any weight just gets us shunned as not having real problems since everyone else in today's society is trying to lose it.

While I really don't have any body issues from being really thin for a while (6'1" and 135 up until about a year and a half ago), I can completely see where people can develop them. And it really doesn't help when everyone mentions that you'll snap like a twig when trying to do really anything semi-strenuous, or when you get told to eat more as a solution to just about everything as if it's some magic trick you obviously aren't trying.

[SusieBlu]

It's a simple-ish road with the right training. Unfortunately, the exercise programs that are tailored for the majority of people actively work against ectomorphs, since the cardio aspects kill any chance of growth we've got. So after spending years trying these different programs with no real change in body mass is still a tedious path filled with plenty of frustration. It's just a different one than most people have. And usually complaining about not being able to gain any weight just gets us shunned as not having real problems since everyone else in today's society is trying to lose it.

While I really don't have any body issues from being really thin for a while (6'1" and 135 up until about a year and a half ago), I can completely see where people can develop them. And it really doesn't help when everyone mentions that you'll snap like a twig when trying to do really anything semi-strenuous, or when you get told to eat more as a solution to just about everything as if it's some magic trick you obviously aren't trying.

Alright another female point of view. I had the "I need to gain weight problem." It was the one problem everyone wanted. Complaining about being skinny is a valid thing. Sometimes being skinny is a health issue. Guy or gal being told that you shouldn't doing something because you are skinny because skinny equals weak is annoying. So yeah as a lady I complained about being skinny and my inability to gain weight. I can see very well why this would be an body issue for guys especially when you have people that are "the only reason you are skinny is becuase you aren't trying hard enough to be big." A part of it is genes. Just as some people have "fat" genes some of us have "skinny" genes. A blessing or a curse depending of point of view but the main thing it is a valid body issue.

[Daverin2112]

The funny thing is, for what it is worth, I am mostly comfortable with my body image; I could stand to lose a couple of pounds, and I wouldn't mind a bit more bulk here and there, but as far as how I appear, I am actually not far off from the type of body I find appealing (whether or not one begets the other, I haven't really felt like thinking about.) I also would not mind being a couple of inches taller; thank you, however it was, who informed us that they average is, in fact, greater than 5'8" for men. It explains why I see so many people taller than me.

But, it is exceedingly easy for me to understand where others are coming from. I used to be extremely skinny and short, along with a nice bevy of other problems. Now, I am only slightly short, most certainly not skinny, and more or less comfortable with my appearance. But it probably has left something of a scar on my "performance", for lack of a better word. I've always hated feeling weak (and quite honestly, being such when younger.) So even though the social issues didn't drive any real body image insecurities, it has driven me to want to become stronger. I will always feel the need to be able to exert more might than those around me.

I say this to remind people this is about body image and other social issues. Not that anyone actually was saying otherwise. I just wanted to make sure people felt open to discuss what made them feel insecure, body image or no. And indeed, I can't help but notice that insecurity drives alot of issues of divers fields. (no, divers is not a misspelling, btw.)

[realbrickwall]

Yeah, looks aside, strength is one of those social issues that a lot of men and women face in different ways. Men often face mockery when they are unable to do a physically demanding task, even if that task may be above the average man's capability. On the other hand, women who are capable of even average physical labor are often called "mannish" (as if that were an insult) if they don't at least pretend it's difficult.

This is one of the things that's always on my mind when I train. I feel like I'm expected by society to meet certain standards of fitness, even though I know that the standards I hope to meet are a good deal above the societal average. My brain tells me that I'm supposed to be able to run a 5K. My brain tells me that I'm supposed to be able to easily lift and carry up to 200 lbs. I honestly know only a couple people who can do either of those things, but my brain persists.

Of course, I am perfectly happy to be getting stronger and more fit. That's not exactly a bad thing. But I don't think I should feel pressured by society to do it. It should be my decision.

[Waldo]

We may be talking about different versions of "skinny." here. I'm willing to bet that most of us skinny people looked more like Christian Bale in The Machinist than Brad Pitt in Fight Club. That type of skinny has plenty of self-esteem issues put on-top of it.

Bale in The Machinist was clearly a person that lost weight, including muscle mass, for the role. Compared to guys naturally that skinny that have never been bigger, there is a noticable difference, his muscles are bigger in areas (for example he has noticably larger lats than a typical naturally skinny person would have, and his upper arms are a good bit more built than a naturally skinny person's).

But yes that is a better example than Pitt for one who would have self esteem issues over their skinniness.

Though it is said in that picture, there is no way Pitt is 150 lb in that shot, he looks a lot more like someone in the mid 160's @ 6'0".

Naturally skinny:

That's what I looked like all through HS and most of college (pic is not me, just a shot found on google).

[dshale]

We may be talking about different versions of "skinny." here. I'm willing to bet that most of us skinny people looked more like Christian Bale in The Machinist than Brad Pitt in Fight Club. That type of skinny has plenty of self-esteem issues put on-top of it.

Apparently I need to watch more movies to be able to follow. I have seen neither.

[Tocho]

Apparently I need to watch more movies to be able to follow. I have seen neither.

The Machinist skinny:

Fight Club skinny:

But you should still watch them, they're great movies.

[Zima]

Actually i can't see that, as i stated above. Because you come across in a very different light due to how you phrase your posts. And you coupled almost every mention of "skinny" with "tall", so saying i missed the point doesn't exactly ring true. Anyway, if you weren't trying to be offensive, then i wont hound on you; just please stop telling people to 'stop complaining' or that something is 'not something to complain about'. everything else is fine, but this sort of phrasing sets you up to come across as being negative and makes the 'compliments' come across as backhanded.

you're not 'being a bad person' for suggesting that being tall or skinny has its advantages. you're 'being a bad person' by telling people they can't complain about their body issues in a thread about complaining about body issues. I understand saying things the way you would like to hear them, but that's not always going to work in a public environment. so to reiterate, the way you phrase yourself makes you sound like you are trying to belittle other peoples issues, please stop.

I said it once(not counting when I tried to paraphrase my statement to clarify it, which obviously didn't help), and I only said it that way because if it was said to me, I wouldn't interpret it as being backhanded. It goes without saying that I'll "stop telling people" this, because, as I said, I was trying to say something positive. The reaction you had was not something I intended to happen, and I had no way of predicting it because the way I think is obviously a little different. Perhaps I'm used to more harsh language(and I'm not saying that's a good thing or my way of thinking is better). The only thing I'm guilty of here is having poor communication skills, which I'm well aware of and I'm trying my best.

I hope you realize that I'm explaining all this to you because I want you to know that my intentions weren't bad, *not* because I want to argue with you. If I just said "sorry, I'll stop," and left it at that, it would imply that I actually did mean it in a backhanded way.

Anyway, to put it simply and in a way that hopefully won't offend anyone - I think tall slender people are amazing looking. Yes, it can be a bit too extreme, but some heavy lifting and eating giant amounts of food(which I am super envious of) will get you looking spectacular.

[illuminatus]

Just to add something to this conversation. I'm not that tall, at all, though I'm taller than my mother and father. My younger brother is taller than I am and has a skinnier build. I'm about 5'5", so not that tall, and have always had extra weight. At my skinniest, through basic training and my time in the army, I weighed 153 lbs. When I got out, I spiked back up to 210 lbs at my heaviest. As you can imagine, being 5'5" and that heavy can cause some serious body image issues and health issues. I've always been self conscious of my weight, and always will be, even when I was 153 lbs, I still worried. I'm finally down again the 190 range, been busting my butt to get there, thanks in part to this site. But strangely, my height has never bothered me. I'm perfectly comfortable being 5'5", in fact I like being shorter. That's my body image issue anyway. trying to work around it, become healthier and slim down, because I'll be damned if I'm going to let the Zombie Apocalypse beat me