Relative strength, strength endurance, and muscle size

[mightstone2k]

Is relative strength or strength endurance a product of muscle size? Specifically, should I care about bulking/cutting or is simply eating clean and working out sufficient?

I'm frustrated. I've been working out for several years and the last two have been almost exclusively bodyweight. Despite that, I can't seem to break my pushup or pullup plateaus (20ish and 6) and I'm not progressing to any of the "elite bodyweight exercises" (one-arm pushup/pullup, handstand pushup, pistol squat). I have heard the "if you want to get better, just keep doing it" advice many times, and greasing the groove, Pavel's Ladder, and even 3/week sessions with a specific exercise have all failed. I'm starting to wonder if I need to be particularly anal about my macronutrient ratios and nutrient timing to start progressing (which means I could follow Leangains, or Robb Wolf's advice, or... etc.).

In case this helps, I am following Ross Enamit's beginner plan from Never Gymless, with some modifications. It's 3/week strength training with core+conditioning on the days in between.

Day 1

Pushup (goal 20)

Pullup (goal 8)

Weighted squat (goal 25)

Band hamstring curl (goal 10)

Pike press on chair (goal 8)

Day 2

Jump rope 30w/30r for 12-14 rounds

Core

Day 3

Band chest press (goal 8)

Band high pull (goal 10)

Close squat (Convict Conditioning - goal 20)

Band good morning (goal 10)

Overhead 1-arm band press (goal 8)

Day 4

Jump rope 30w/30r for 12-14 rounds

Core

Day 5

Diamond pushup (goal 15)

Chinup (goal 8)

Weighted lunge (goal 25)

Hamstring curl (goal 10)

Weighted dip (between 2 chairs - goal 8)

Day 6 - optional

Jump rope 30w/30r for 12-14 rounds

Core

Weighted exercises means I hit the progression standard for unweighted; all goals except close squat come from Never Gymless. And yet, I haven't hit progression standard for pushups or pullups, and I can feel another stall coming down the pike. Why? Because I can never seem to get to 10 pullups, or past 20 pushups, or progress anything.

I apologize for the rantiness of this thread; any and all constructive comments will be appreciated.

[brian d]

I do not know about muscle size v. relative strength. I think there are too many variables out there, and it is really complicated. I know people with bigger muscles, and I'm stronger than them, but I also know people with smaller muscles who are stronger than me. I suspect this would be the case for most of us.

I am a little surprised that you say you've been working on bodyweight exercises for years and are stuck at 20 pushups and 6 pullups. I suppose the limiting factor could be your diet, as that directly relates to your own bodyweight. If you started on the heavy side and have stayed there, it could be extremely difficult to push past your numbers.

However, most people can make excellent progress following a program. You mention you're on Ross Enamit's right now, and you also mentioned a few others. How long do you follow these programs? They should all deliver results for you if you follow them correctly. Even the most basic programs (like the 100 pushup program or Pavel's ladder pullups program) bring tremendous results. If you really follow them. And many really good programs could last a person for years.

If your weight is limiting you, then definitely work on nutrition. If you've got your weight dialed in, find a program that speaks to you and stick with it for at least 6 months. A good program won't have you testing your maxes all the time, so just get comfortable putting in the reps day in and day out. Then test every 6 weeks or so.

The elite bodyweight lifts are just that, elite. It can take 5 to 10 years of extremely consistent practice to even get close to elite in anything. I have good pushup and pullup numbers (or what I think is good for me), but I am nowhere close to elite. I know a lot of people have made great strides toward those goals by following Convict Conditioning, so that could be a good one to check out.

[Kishi]

I don't know much about bulking and cutting myself. As a martial artist, you're what Lyle McDonald calls a mixed athlete. You're neither a strength athlete or an endurance athlete. You're a little bit of both, and as such the conventional rules of bulking and cutting don't really apply to you.

Regarding push ups, one of the things I found really helped me bust the ~20 plateau was training them like they were a strength lift. Waldo was good enough to show me this chart from Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength... which my computer apparently doesn't want me to upload. But he basically reminded me that the body responds to all resistance the same way - it doesn't distinguish between iron and gravity. So there's no reason not to use training guidelines that barbell trainers use for strength if the muscle will respond the same either way.

Using a rep-range of 5-8/set as my guideline, the progression went push ups -> diamonds -> un-even -> declined one-arms, which is where I'm hanging out now. Incidentally, I've become able to do 44 push ups in a minute, so I consider that plateau to be pretty busted.

With pull ups, the only trick I've found that works is increasing the overall volume. Enamait does list several protocols in that book for addressing this; Art of Manliness also has an excellent post about this. So does Jason Ferruggia.

Hope this helps.

[mightstone2k]

@brian d

I suppose I should clarify that my question relates to post-workout nutrition specifically. My diet overall is very clean, but the issue that bugs me re: nutrition is whether I should be very precise about my macro ratios post-workout. As far as training goes, weight is not my limiting factor (6', 176 lbs). I admit that I have only done Ross's beginner program for a little over a month. I have no intention of switching from it, but having a couple workouts in a row where my numbers slip a bit really frustrates me when they are so low. I can't even do the conditioning workouts that require doing pushups because pushups are a "maximal exercise" for me right now. Why haven't I progressed beyond 20 pushups? I suspect its because I don't have the faintest clue what I'm doing when it comes to assessing my progress. All I can think of is "add reps. Train 3/week. Pick an arbitrary number. When I can do that many, allow myself to advance." If the program didn't give me three different workout plans, I'd probably be doing the same exercises every session.

I also admit that I have program-jumped frequently. The most anything lasted was six months of You Are Your Own Gym. But... doing pushups is doing pushups. Why am I still sitting on 20 when I've been doing pushups for years? Does the macro-structure really matter that much when I do pushups roughly 3/week regardless of the "program" I'm on?

@Kishi

Regarding push ups, one of the things I found really helped me bust the ~20 plateau was training them like they were a strength lift. Waldo was good enough to show me this chart from Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength... which my computer apparently doesn't want me to upload. But he basically reminded me that the body responds to all resistance the same way - it doesn't distinguish between iron and gravity. So there's no reason not to use training guidelines that barbell trainers use for strength if the muscle will respond the same either way.

Using a rep-range of 5-8/set as my guideline, the progression went push ups -> diamonds -> un-even -> declined one-arms, which is where I'm hanging out now. Incidentally, I've become able to do 44 push ups in a minute, so I consider that plateau to be pretty busted.

Can you elaborate on this please? From what I understand, you did pushups until 5-8 was easy, moved up to diamonds, then uneven, then declined one-arms?

[Kishi]

@Kishi

Can you elaborate on this please? From what I understand, you did pushups until 5-8 was easy, moved up to diamonds, then uneven, then declined one-arms?

Yep. Well, actually, as I recall it, I was working some with Convict Conditioning at the time for the strength training, and the requirement for advancement there is to be able to do a couple sets of 20-ish push ups, then onward to diamonds and so on. I changed it at the point that I was able to do diamonds, and my progressions have typically worked out to where I'm doing 3x8 of a variation before I up the difficulty.

Does that answer your question?

[mightstone2k]

It does. I'm committed to hitting 3 sets of 20 basic pushups before advancing on Ross's beginner plan. So after that, doing 3 sets of 8 would be a benchmark for advancing harder pushup variations, if I'm understanding you.

The funny thing is, I'm already doing diamonds per the plan. Saturday I was able to knock out 3 sets of 10. Heh.

[rtalencar]

How long do those workouts take? I don't do bw work much so I don't know the specifics of the program, but it seems your volume is a bit light.

I have rep goals primarily for my squats and overhead presses.

Lets say I want to hit 225 for 25 reps on squat.

I can do sets of 5 pretty easily, so first I'll do 5 sets of 5 with 1 minute rest in between.

Then 5x5 with 45 seconds, then 30 seconds.

Then I'll either drop down to 15 seconds of rest or I'll switch to 2 sets of 10 and 1 set of 5 with a minute rest.

Then a set of 15 and a set of 10.

And so on.

Just work towards it. In the case of pushups your goal is 3 sets of 20. Why not do 6 sets of 10 and then start cutting down on the rest between sets?

[brian d]

Hey mightstone2k,

It does sound like you've got your diet and weight dialed in nicely. We're about the same size, so I highly doubt that is your limiting factor. I also doubt post-workout macro nutrients are limiting you in your pushup progression.

If it were me stuck on pushups, I would do just what rtalencar wrote: multiple sets that are doable. I'd probably shoot for something around 60 percent of my set max. If that is 20, then I'd do sets of 12. However many I could comfortably. I would work on adding numbers from there. It might look something like this:

5 x 12

4 x 15

5 x 15

4 x 17

5 x 16

Or thereabouts. Whatever enabled me to make a jump in either total workout volume or set volume. I would also not worry too much about making progress on every workout. If you get to 5 x 15 and that feels tough, repeat it as many times as you need to. Hitting the same numbers still allows you to make progress. It is like putting pennies in the bank. Before you know it your one set max will go way up and you'll probably be banging out sets of 20.

Also, I would do the same thing with pullups. If you can do 10 as a max, shoot for sets somewhere around 4 to 6. Whatever lets you get a lot of sets in without killing yourself.

Again, I can only say this is what I would do, and I've done it. And it has allowed me to make great progress on a variety of lifts. That said, there are a number of different ways to up your numbers, and no single right way. I know it is frustrating to be stuck on a plateau, but in my experience some extra volume will help push you through that in most cases. The exception would be too much volume that is wearing you out and keeping you at the plateau, but it doesn't look like that is your issue.

Good luck.

[Waldo]

It sounds like you are doing low volume (3 or less sets) of low intensity (>10ish reps per set).

Progress will come from high volume, high intensity, and/or a mixture of both.

Instead of 3x20 why not 10x10? For higher rep stuff, count total reps and try to grow it, and total time and try to decrease it. Reps per set and set count are pretty malleable. Testing your single set (high rep) max shouldn't be an every workout thing, doing so really hurts your efficiency. Grow your total volume and your single set max will come along for the ride.

Likewise progress can come from low reps of super hard exercises. For a strength progression there is rarely a point to working past 8-10 reps. Don't be afraid of 1-2-3 reps to failure, this is where you will make the fastest progress. Don't be afraid of subpar form with bodyweight exercises either. Always be trying to improve, but high level BW stuff is distinctly different than weights in that you have to work through poor form; lacking an external load it isn't nearly as dangerous, and there is simply no other way to learn it (form progression is an important form of progression).

[Woodsrider]

You are working out 6 days a week with about 15 different exercises. In my opinion, that's too much.

You mention the 'elite bodyweight exercises'. I'm no expert so take it at that, but I've only been able to do those by lifting some actual iron to build the strength to do those exercises.

[mightstone2k]

The primary takeaway points I'm getting are:

1) Increase volume by increasing sets and doing a smaller percentage than max (ex. 10x10);

2) Take pushups out of the circuit (implicit point) - frontload the workout with pushup training (do the same with pullups once I hit pushup goal)

3) Do pushups 3/week instead of doing three different chest/tricep exercises 1/week each (implicit point)

Am I correct in inferring 2 and 3?

If so, thank you all for your help

If not, please correct me.

[brian d]

Those changes look good. If you went with those, I really feel you would see some results come in a little while.

Oh, and I don't think you need to split your pushup and pullup goals. They could work together. Pushes and pulls really balance each other out.

Give us an update after a month or two of pushup focus. I'd be really curious to hear about your results.

Cheers,

brian d

[Waldo]

Are you working on endurance or strength? These really are competing goals, work on one and you'll likely backslide on the other.

Circuits should only be used for endurance work. If you wish to get stronger you need the rest between sets to fully recharge your strength, which will take 3-5 minutes, longer as you get stronger.

Are you trying to do lots and lots of pushups, or are you trying to do one arm pushups?

You say you are working on elite bodyweight stuff, yet where is the low rep work? I think that you've fallen into the common problem that is Convict Conditioning is mind poison. So much of that book is flat out dead wrong. Close squats are a complete waste of time at best. Progression standard is a silly useless concept that will just lead to dead ends when you get past the beginner stage, elite BW exercises are so complex you have to be able to figure out your path on your own (your weaknesses and strengths are unique to you).

Set a small number of specific goals, 3-5 of them, and work toward those goals almost exclusively.

[jimmie65]

My personal experience:

Diet is not the main issue. I don't eat great (which is why I'm still overweight) but have managed 100 push-ups.

Repetition is the key. I used the online 100 pushups program - in a nutshell, 3 workouts a week split into 5 to 7 sets and only maxing out your last set.

Rest, rest, rest. Take a day off between strength workouts. And put whatever your focus is at the beginning of your workout.

[aj_rock]

I would also hesitate to say that as a mixed athlete that he cannot bulk or cut. You CAN, you just do it in the off-season (a la me )

The ONE thing I can say about endurance training though (which is definitely what you're up to) is that you NEED to eat to support it. Endurance training is highly energy intensive, and if you don't have the energy, you won't be able to progress well.

[mightstone2k]

Are you working on endurance or strength? These really are competing goals, work on one and you'll likely backslide on the other.

Circuits should only be used for endurance work. If you wish to get stronger you need the rest between sets to fully recharge your strength, which will take 3-5 minutes, longer as you get stronger.

Are you trying to do lots and lots of pushups, or are you trying to do one arm pushups?

You say you are working on elite bodyweight stuff, yet where is the low rep work? I think that you've fallen into the common problem that is Convict Conditioning is mind poison. So much of that book is flat out dead wrong. Close squats are a complete waste of time at best. Progression standard is a silly useless concept that will just lead to dead ends when you get past the beginner stage, elite BW exercises are so complex you have to be able to figure out your path on your own (your weaknesses and strengths are unique to you).

Set a small number of specific goals, 3-5 of them, and work toward those goals almost exclusively.

Well... progression standard a la Convict Conditioning was a fairly key part in my routine. My goals are twofold: (1) be able to pass the Air Force PT test, and (2) work toward elite bodyweight exercises. Once I hit the progression standard, I was planning on alternating between strength and endurance each exercise session; so it was the measuring stick that determined when I could move up to the next level of difficulty on an exercise. I take it that CC's progression standards are fairly arbitrary? "Leading to dead ends" certainly sounds familiar right now...

That leads to a further question: is training maximal strength and strength endurance in an alternating format viable or counterproductive? According to Never Gymless, it is feasible and beneficial to alternate between strength qualities in each workout session, although Ross tends to focus on maximal and explosive strength.

Format

Week 1: M/E/M

Week 2: E/M/E

Repeat

[Waldo]

Take for example the easiest of the hard exercises, the pistol squat.

What is standing between where you are now and doing pistols? Balance? Mobility? Pressing leg strength? Holding your other leg up? Form? Likely a mix of some of them. If strength, where is the weak point? Deep in the hole? Transitioning past parallel?

Since everyone has a unique mix of issues, using a linear progression just doesn't make sense. On top of that, many people's legs will each be different. What one leg needs, the other may not. You have to figure out what is holding you back, and plan your own progression accordingly.

Now I used pistols as an example because the progression path can be inordinately complex for how easy of an exercise they are. Get past the exercises in Convict Conditioning and get to some of the really tough bodyweight exercises, and there are no progression standards for the most part. There are sometimes guidelines on the main path for an exercise, but you will start needing a lot of assistance exercises to progress the main path as you get further and further. A planche is an example of an insanely complex nonlinear progression.

[mightstone2k]

So it's a matter of figuring out my weak points for the exercises and trying to address them, once I hit that point. Gotcha. Thanks for the help, everyone!