Questions on Energy Level, Soreness, and Recovery

[MegaCarp]

So after this last challenge, I found several new things about myself, the most daunting being the impatience I had as a teen has reared its ugly head. This killed me in working out, diet-wise, and even sleep. So I have several questions:

1.) Been doing Paleo 2 months now, only exception I make is my heavy cream into my coffee every morning, and notice that most days I feel like I'm dragging energy-wise. I've been trumping this up to inconsistent protein levels, and real low carbs, but could I be over looking something? This has caused me to want to sleep quite a bit lately to the point where a hour nap, becomes 3 or 4 hours.

2.) Soreness I know is generally a good thing, but I have to wonder if I'm pushing myself too hard because I tried to maintain my workout regimen, but many days there was pre and post soreness for me. Generally after an off day I felt a bit stronger and okay, but achy. Am I pushing too hard?

3.) Recovery, this kind of links into #2, but honestly, what recommended ways do you recover from your workouts either immediately after, in the short term (few hours), or long term (next day or so)?

[Gowaduv]

What does your daily calorie intake look like? If it's too low, that will take care of #1. That or not enough sleep, which will help with all 3. Are you

eating enough fat?

What are you doing pre/post workout? I mix 8 oz of drip coffee into my protein shake before working out and also take a couple of regular-ass aspirin. Caffeine opens your blood vessels and aspirin thins your blood, both of which I've heard help move oxygen to your cells and toxins away from them. After a workout I eat as soon as I can: meat and sweet potatoes if I can get it. I work myself to literal exhaustion and am fine within an hour or so (I collapsed onto a bench while finishing a set of body-weight squats last night and it took a minute before I could push myself to stand back up). I'm a little sore today, but I'm functional and my energy levels feel good.

You can add in massage, hydrotherapy, those high-density foam rollers (which is like massage) and stretching- all of which help to keep the lactic acid moving out of your muscles. The other thing you can do is simply cut back on your workouts. If you're constantly tearing your muscles down you aren't giving them a chance to recover. Sometimes less is more.

[MegaCarp]

Gowaduv, If you reference my challenge, this will answer your nutrition questions

http://nerdfitness.com/community/showthread.php?2146-Rcarper-s-Challenge-moving-those-chains

Honestly, I think its in my pre/post workout where I'm suffering. Before starting the gym about 6 months ago, I just did my martial arts and stuff, and had no formal cool down. I did do stretching, but I admit I really never carry it over to the gym as I think working the arc trainer/elliptical gets me warmed up decent. Obviously I'm wrong. My right calf is telling me that for certain. I use a protein shake occasionally (GNC Whey Protein Isolate 28. I'd gladly take suggestions on better options), but use it as a protein filler.

[Gowaduv]

I'm just gonna parrot what Robb Wolf might say in his podcast Your carbs look a little low, maybe try to get closer to 100 per day...? How did you feel on the 21st and 26th, your highest carb days? Calories look generally low, too. I think I would die if I had a day with less than 1700 calos. It's interesting that your higher carb days are also your lower calorie days. Post work out I would try to add (another?) sweet potato to your meal. Get the goods carbs up and get fuel to the liver so it can pass the refined energy on to the muscles.

how are you sleeping?

[MegaCarp]

Actually I felt kind of beat up on the 26th (I don't recall the 21st), but I worked out, re-arranged the apartment, but was just feeling dead around 5 pm. Of course the next day, I felt like a freight train and was high energy most of the whole day. I didn't eat any sweet potatoes, but might try slipping it in. Yea, I'm not sure why I was below 1800 some days (I admit I was probably just feeling slightly okay or just run down, but wasn't too hungry), but I need to correct that. I guess I wanted to keep my carbs low to get into ketosis and then start losing extra weight. I might be stressing my body too much because of it though. I dunno.

Sleep, hmm well when I'm not napping (my naps go awesome), but then at night I'm struggling to shut the mind down and get settled in. The last few nights have even been worse due to overall soreness though. Still trying to get some consistency there too and avoid the afternoon drop off. Honestly though I get from 5-7.5 hours, mainly more to the higher end. Weekends I sleep until I just can't.

[Alethea]

You need more calories. You are eating what *I* would if I had your activity level, and I'm 4 inches shorter, lighter, and female.

Your personal caloric range (which we figured out, thankfully!) is 1800-2300 if you are fairly sedentary. You haven't been. You've been hopping like a bunny. Near as I can tell, you've been burning somewhere between 300 - 600 calories extra a day (I suggest you track this. It's easy to drift off target), and you need to eat for that. How do you feel on your higher calorie days? Because that is close to the minimum you should be eating as a general rule.

I second the sleep. 6 is the minimum. 7 is better. 8 is usually best.

Also, eat a banana every once in a while. The potassium is awesome for muscle recovery.

[Alethea]

Also, you figured this out, but proper warm-up and dynamic stretching, and proper cooldown with dynamic and static stretching. A lot of muscle soreness is due to toxins lingering in the muscles. Stretching and cool-down flushes them out.

[MegaCarp]

Alethea,

Yes, I'm ever so lucky to learn on the caloric range. Thank you. Yea, I've been far from 'chilled'. Of course, I never know whether to trust the actual value that the cardio machines generate for warm-up/cool down (cause the arc trainer isn't in Daily Burn), but yea I guess beyond that I can put the rest in. As for the feeling thing, I think I better start 'journel-ling' that to gage how I'm headed.

[Brometheus]

I'd say more fat in your diet That and check your vitamin D levels. I find that winter kills me. 10,000 i.u.'s a day and I feel great...plenty of energy. However, I also consume 2200-3000 calories a day and don't think about it. Helps with the whole energy thing.

[MegaCarp]

How active are you Bear? Where do you nab all of your i.u.s (assuming dietary supplement)? I only ask because the ultimate goal is to get under 200 pounds for me this year. (Currently 230 taunts me as it teases me here and there)

[Brometheus]

Yeah, I grab them through supplements (Kirkland Signature D3 vitamin 2000 i.u. -- from Costco). Not much sun in seattle right now...more like rain, snow and grey clouds. Here's an interesting post on supplementing it.

I work 8 hours a day on my feet. I'm a cashier lifting 50 pounds on a regular basis, moving all sorts of stuff, and it's a lot of work. I then do kettlebell swings or other sets for 15-20 minutes 4 days a week. I'd say reasonably physically active. Not athlete status, but maybe one day I wore a bodybug to work for several weeks and was clocked at 3k-4k worth of calorie expenditure every day. If you put any faith in that calorie in calorie out nonsense

If you're having lots of issues with soreness and the like, it might be a lack of amino acids. That or maybe seeing an active release technique specialist might help. I've been seeing one for about 5 sessions now and my recovery period is a lot less, and I feel great. Pain free, no issues with any joints, soreness or tightness...though it's weird to walk, stand and lift weights differently than before. That and some focused stretching, good protein/fat after a workout (eggs + some sort of meat + cooked in bacon grease or butter) and 7-8 hours of sleep are my fight against fatigue, overall crabby nature and possibly (hasn't happened for a while) being sore after a workout. Though to be honest, I don't exercise to failure. I think it's counter-productive...

[kahn265]

Yeah, your calories appear too low. Carbs and fat are WAY low.

Check Steve's posts on calculating calorie needs. My research supports what he has written.

As to muscle soreness -

1. Drink LOTS of water all the time.

2. Stretching as others have mentioned.

3. Be SURE to take your rest days. If you are training hard, you need 1 day off for every 3 days on. THOSE recovery days are when you will get stronger.

On the "bright?" side, your symptoms LOOK TO ME (I am NOT a doctor, nor do I play one in D&D) like classic overtraining. Excessive soreness, exhaustion, low calorie intake....

When I have a ton of soreness (and there are times my wife teases me that I'm walking like an old man) I usually have to take some Ibuprofin and drink about 44 oz water.

I don't know your take on this, but I understand that BCAA supplements CAN minimize this. However, they are 1. Costly, 2. Not even remotely paleo, 3. a supplement which has MINIMAL regulation covering what it needs to be - e.g. who knows what else is in it other than your 4 aminos. I have not tried these and so I cannot yet recommend them.

[MegaCarp]

Yea, I think I over did it. I've taken 3 days off, and except for a calf strain. Now I've been pretty chilled out today, and had my calories down. Course my carbs were in the 90's, but that was okay. My energy levels felt really solid. I think I do need to supplement my diet with better supplements. Also, I didn't know the 3/1 rule as sometimes I would push for 4 straight, and maintain those regular caloric values you saw. Now I just need to get settled with my stretching.

Gowaduv, what Protein supplement do you use?

[Plex]

If I can jump in here?

I use body fortress whey isolate. Its pretty much pure whey protein plus some BCAA's they talk about goobedly gook. I am more just looking at the protein aspect being the majority and practically the sole thing in there. I haven't nipped online to find the pure pure stuff yet, although its on my to do list (The aforementioned one I find at my local Walmart for about 20 bucks a 2lb bucket)

[Gowaduv]

I bought a tub of DotFit FirstString (vanilla) from the Gold's Gym I joined. I think my body is starting to reject it, though. I looked at the container before my workout today and started feeling nauseous... It's a whey protein drink and ingredient #1 is maltodextrin (a corn sugar that's usually used to thicken beverages, like malted milk shakes). It has a vitamin blend, but the totals are pretty low compared to a daily vitamin, and there's no "magic" ingredient like some powders.

[spezzy]

i wouldn't consider it overtraining.

i would consider it undereating.

for on/off days:

the 3 on one off thing is a rule some people use, but not an actual rule.

i don't take a recovery day every 3 days, and i train hard. i've trained every day without rest before with no issue. (i usually work on a 4 on/1 off or 5 on/one off schedule)

if you're eating and sleeping enough to match your training level, there will not be an issue. i only ever feel sore when my nutrition and sleep is off (for example, i was sore sunday after i trained hard saturday, skipped dinner, went out drinking and had late night chinese food).

the most important thing is listening to your body. when my body says take a day off, i take a day off. i've gone to the gym and left 10 minutes in before because i guessed wrong when i woke up.

for protein and recovery:

I always drink a protein shake immediately after my workout. Always. Then about an hour later I eat some meat.

Make sure you're eating enough meat. Protein shakes are good, but it cant beat the meat. ()

i currently using muscle milk and dymatize iso-100. I love both of these. Muscle milk mixes and tastes better than no other, and you can find it at Target. The dymatize iso-100 has a better ingredient list, but doesn't taste quite as good (but is still quite tasty).

I used optimum nutrition 100% whey for a long time, which is the 'standard', and and liked it for the most part, but sometimes I'd get entire tubs that were just bad. The ISO-100 is more expensive but worth it, I think.

I used Body Fortress when I first started out lifting. IMO it's crap, but hey, it is cheap, and it really is whatever works for you

I've never tried DotString so can't give an opinion there, but looking at the ingredients list - like you mentioned - it's kind of scary.

Oh, and like everyone else said. STRETCH. stretchstretchstretchstretchstretch!

[Gowaduv]

If a protein shake could beat the meat, I'd never leave the house...

I think the trainers at my gym must get a commission from selling the DotFit products: they're all over the gym and the trainers recommend a pre and post workout shake, which seems a little excessive. I suppose the other option is that the trainers are stuck on the USDA food recommendations mindset which must think 45g of sugar before AND after working out is ok (90g of carbs within, what, 2 hours? Should I maybe just have a Snickers bar?). Not one of them has heard about paleo ("you mean Atkins, right?" is what they say) and last night my guy tried to tell me that I need to eat two cups of brown rice or a large baked potato with dinner- mid bench press, so it was hard to get the bar back up because I was laughing at him. I've been doing a shake about an hour before my workout, but may switch to immediately after since it's taking well over an hour to get home and strap on the feedbag. I mean realistically I wouldn't be drinking it at all and would have a 100% whey protein drink, but I paid $60 for the tub so I'm gonna get through it At least it's only whey and maltodextrin, so it's not like I'm pumping in some hinky voodoo with every glass...

Spezzy- can you post pictures of the nutrition labels for the Muscle Milk and ISO-100? I think it might be useful to start a new thread where people can look at the ingredients in these products. I tried to get the nutrition info off of the Muscle Milk site but it's both in Flash and super tiny.