AAAAAHHH! Why won't they let it DIE!

[CrisciMalosh]

Yahoo news has another story that claims a link between autism and vaccines. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/autism-epidemic-linked-epidemic-vaccine-100000000.html

 

 

AUTISM IS NOT CAUSED BY VACCINES!!! It is genetic in nature. How do I know this? Because my entire bleep bleep family is on the spectrum.

 

And you know what, even if vaccines do somehow trigger something having to do with autism, who the hell cares? I would rather a safe autistic kid than a kid who is dead from, oh let's say whooping cough, or polio, or any other myriad of diseases that used to kill our children at high numbers. 

 

 

GRRR. EGAD!

[insanity]

Yahoo news has another story that claims a link between autism and vaccines. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/autism-epidemic-linked-epidemic-vaccine-100000000.html

 

 

AUTISM IS NOT CAUSED BY VACCINES!!! It is genetic in nature. How do I know this? Because my entire bleep bleep family is on the spectrum.

 

And you know what, even if vaccines do somehow trigger something having to do with autism, who the hell cares? I would rather a safe autistic kid than a kid who is dead from, oh let's say whooping cough, or polio, or any other myriad of diseases that used to kill our children at high numbers. 

 

 

GRRR. EGAD!

 

 

It's not so hard to think that Vaccines (Not all) might do damage when you see that they contain things like formaldehyde, mercury, and aluminum. You inject a load of that into a developing system, the mercury having the bonus of doing damage on a genetic level, and you've got a perfect recipe for disaster...

 

Now, is that what actually causes autism.... I don't know, but to me it's not that far of a leap to think it's at least possible, and worth studying.

 

On top of that, those diseases you mentioned were on the decline when vaccines came around. So we'll never really know just how important they were in getting rid of them.

[CrisciMalosh]

Actually, whooping cough is still a serious threat in our country, and polio was not declining when the vaccine came out.

 

As for formaldehyde, we are exposed to more of it eating a few apples than we are in vaccines. Besides that, we use formaldehyde to make DNA. And aluminum is used as an antacid.

 

As for the mercury, they have been removing it from vaccines for years, with it being a very uncommon ingredient now, and you get more mercury from eating fish than from getting your flu shot. 

 

On top of all of that, my mother was afraid of my childhood vaccines, didn't get them for me, and I still have autism. Kids die every year from this fear mongering. I wish it would stop.

[insanity]

and I'm not saying your wrong, there's other things you can use for whooping cough, and I've seen some evidence that DDT may have caused the polio outbreaks, but until the CDC can definitivly show that vaccines are safe, parents are going to be cautious. It seems like there is more and more evidence mounting against vaccines.

 

Seeing as how you have it and didn't get vaccines, then maybe it's something else in the vaccines, such as MSG, that's also in a lot of food that is the cause. To simply say it's not vaccines, without actually looking into it does a diservice to everyone.

 

As for Mercury in fish, fish also has selenium in it, which is shown to possibly protect against the mercury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2705224/

[CrisciMalosh]

It does indeed. 

 

However, the issue here is that whenever studies like this one, and the poorly written articles that flood the news waves when they come out, turn the focus away from the important aspects of autism and of life in general. Parents should not have to wade through all of the bullshit just to try and make a good decision. Jenny McCarthy and her poisonous words, these studies, all belie the evidence that vaccines, while not perfect, SAVE LIVES. 

 

And as for the polio outbreaks, as far as my research has shown, it is likely linked to indoor plumbing and increased sanitation. DDT was a bad chemical, don't get me wrong. Alas though, chemicals do not create viruses. Viruses exist out in nature, and some intervention happens and they attack. 

 

As for autism, the evidence is pointing more and more towards genetics, and not environment alone. I know everybody wants to find one single cause for autism, point at it and say "Look! There it is! Just stop that and we'll be free!" but that isn't the case. 

 

Just this year I have read that too much folic acid in pregnancy, not enough folic acid in pregnancy, power lines, pollution, living in the country, vaccinating, not vaccinating, eating fish, not eating fish... that all of these are linked to autism. It would seem to me that living on Earth is linked to autism. Until there is definitive scientific evidence, THAT IS REPRODUCIBLE, linking any of the environmental conditions to autism, I don't want to hear their hypotheses. I don't want to hear their fear mongering. It will continue to irk me, and it will continue to make me want to rant out loud (or out typed as this case may be). Do your science following the Scientific Method, or stop trying to scare us into not wanting to live for fear we might cause our kids to have autism. Autism is all bad anyway.

 

Perhaps I am more aware of the positive effects vaccines can have, as my father was a child during the Polio outbreak, and had a friend that he visited every chance he got until the year that he died, that had to remain in an Iron Lung until he finally died last year. I have also seen what happens to a high school senior that gets meningitis (vaccine preventable) or a young child that gets whooping cough and breaks her ribs from coughing. 

 

Vaccine preventable illnesses will always be more evil to me than any list of chemicals or natural occurring compounds (like MSG, yeah not scary) that might be lurking in them. I trust the scientific evidence that tells me that vaccines are safe, and that they are not likely the only, if at all, cause of autism. 

 

And insanity, I am the mother of an autistic child. You do me a great disservice by suggesting that I have not looked into every far fetched study, every supposed cause, every supposed cure, and done my research. I have spoken to geneticists, natural medical doctors, developmental pediatricians, biochemists, cultural anthropologists, and neurologists. I have listened to what they had to say. I have asked questions. I asked for their sources. I wanted to know what I had done wrong, how I fucked up. And guess what? I still question everything. I read that study in its entirety. It will not be reproducible. It will be like the now discredited study blaming the MMR vaccine for autism. 

[CrisciMalosh]

I do want to thank you, for the invigorating discussion. It really helped my frustrations and stress levels drop. =)

[insanity]

It does indeed. 

 

However, the issue here is that whenever studies like this one, and the poorly written articles that flood the news waves when they come out, turn the focus away from the important aspects of autism and of life in general. Parents should not have to wade through all of the bullshit just to try and make a good decision. Jenny McCarthy and her poisonous words, these studies, all belie the evidence that vaccines, while not perfect, SAVE LIVES. 

 

I agree here, and unfortunatly those people that poison the waters aren't going to go away.

 

And as for the polio outbreaks, as far as my research has shown, it is likely linked to indoor plumbing and increased sanitation. DDT was a bad chemical, don't get me wrong. Alas though, chemicals do not create viruses. Viruses exist out in nature, and some intervention happens and they attack. 

 

Regarding DDT, I haven't done a ton of research on it and a relationship to polio, but knowing that scientists can also be comprimised and seeing the charts and the idea that the 1952 outbreak hit all 50 states at roughly the same time in the summer, the symptoms of DDT exposure being similar to polio... it's enough to make me question things. Now I won't be screaming it from the rooftops simply because I'm not going to muddy the waters any more than needed.

 

As for autism, the evidence is pointing more and more towards genetics, and not environment alone. I know everybody wants to find one single cause for autism, point at it and say "Look! There it is! Just stop that and we'll be free!" but that isn't the case. 

 

Just this year I have read that too much folic acid in pregnancy, not enough folic acid in pregnancy, power lines, pollution, living in the country, vaccinating, not vaccinating, eating fish, not eating fish... that all of these are linked to autism. It would seem to me that living on Earth is linked to autism. Until there is definitive scientific evidence, THAT IS REPRODUCIBLE, linking any of the environmental conditions to autism, I don't want to hear their hypotheses. I don't want to hear their fear mongering. It will continue to irk me, and it will continue to make me want to rant out loud (or out typed as this case may be). Do your science following the Scientific Method, or stop trying to scare us into not wanting to live for fear we might cause our kids to have autism. Autism is all bad anyway.

 

I agree, I've read plenty like that myself... hell I just got done reading an article with the CDC saying they were wrong about salt. While it may be genetic, there are thing that can cause damage on a genetic level... so who knows.

 

Perhaps I am more aware of the positive effects vaccines can have, as my father was a child during the Polio outbreak, and had a friend that he visited every chance he got until the year that he died, that had to remain in an Iron Lung until he finally died last year. I have also seen what happens to a high school senior that gets meningitis (vaccine preventable) or a young child that gets whooping cough and breaks her ribs from coughing. 

 

I'm not saying vaccines aren't good... they do have a purpose. But I can turn around and say I've seen none of that in my family and we've rarely gotten vaccines. Hell I haven't had a vaccine since I left the miltiary 10 years ago...

 

Vaccine preventable illnesses will always be more evil to me than any list of chemicals or natural occurring compounds (like MSG, yeah not scary) that might be lurking in them. I trust the scientific evidence that tells me that vaccines are safe, and that they are not likely the only, if at all, cause of autism. 

 

Cocaine used to be sold over the counter too. Until we realized it was bad. Plutonium is a naturally occuring element...

 

 

And insanity, I am the mother of an autistic child. You do me a great disservice by suggesting that I have not looked into every far fetched study, every supposed cause, every supposed cure, and done my research. I have spoken to geneticists, natural medical doctors, developmental pediatricians, biochemists, cultural anthropologists, and neurologists. I have listened to what they had to say. I have asked questions. I asked for their sources. I wanted to know what I had done wrong, how I fucked up. And guess what? I still question everything. I read that study in its entirety. It will not be reproducible. It will be like the now discredited study blaming the MMR vaccine for autism. 

 

Never said you didn't do your research, it's good that you're doing your own and I wish there were more like you. I'm just saying that for us as a society to simply say "No, it's not vaccines" does a disservice to any generation further down. We're just now starting to realize that things like cholesterol actually have benefits and not all fats are bad... how many people have died because scientists have said "No Cholesterol"? How confident do you think they were at the time?

 

I'm also not saying we have to investigate every single thing for the cause of any diseases or condition. Just that if there's enough concern, throw a legitimate, key word there, study at it, and see what we get. No need to study the effects of meteors on autism...

[insanity]

I do want to thank you, for the invigorating discussion. It really helped my frustrations and stress levels drop. =)

And people say I'm not kind...

[Thrillho]

See, this is an issue I'm torn about. 

 

Vaccines have been positively identified as the root trigger of my son's JIA, and seven years later he's still learning how to run. 

 

I don't think vaccines are a CAUSE of autism, but there's ample evidence that they can exacerbate a condition that was already there.

 

Herd immunity is important, so I don't feel bad for not undertaking what are arguably voluntary and nonessential vaccinations for my kids, given the universally negative experiences we've already had with our kids, with my own childhood and my wife's childhood.

 

In general, I am pro-vaccination. I also think they are taken too far in a lot of cases, and not far enough in others.  

 

...

 

I AM FOR AND AGAINST EVERYTHING.

[CrisciMalosh]

And there is nothing wrong with that stance at all Thrillho. I personally do not get my flu shot, because it always makes me bleed... I do get it for the kids though, as they don't even get a fever from it. I just shudder at the renewed interest in avoiding vaccines for a lot of kids from studies like this, that make blanket statements without all of the evidence, and how that will affect herd immunity. 

[wideeyed]

Three of us in this house are on the spectrum, one is teetering.  I got pregnant with the second right as the first was being diagnosed.  They've both been vaccinated.  The evidence is just not conclusive enough FOR autism.  It's pretty clear with some mitochondrial and AI disorders.  I can understand how parents would be concerned, but the polemic drives me nuts, and the rhetoric is often based on fear and not science.  All parents make choices all the time.  They should be educated choices.  But that education should present both sides of the story (or all 8 sides, etc). 

 

As for Jenny McCarthy - unless she's willing to donate every pennny of the book she wrote claiming her son was "cured," to provide all of those expenisve services to other autistic kids, she can shut the hell up.  There is no cure.  There is adaptation to a world that doesn't make sense (and when you listen to my son question things, he's right.  A great number of things make NO sense.  Like war.)  So, Jenny - how about putting an iPad in the hands of every nonverbal autistic child so that they can learn to communicate in SOME form? 

 

Whatever.  I can't stand her. 

 

So I'm an advocate who preaches acceptance vs. tolerance.  And I'm grieving, because they just found the 11 year old autistic boy who has been missing here in CA.  His 16 year-old half brother killed him. 

 

I should go exercise now and burn this off.

[wideeyed]

OMFG.  I just clicked through to the article. Then I read the study, which basically says, "Hey, Autism and Type I diabetes are both prevalent in similar populations, and Type I diabetes has been linked to the HiB vaccine, and Autism has autoimmuine components, and therefore, vaccinations are also implicated in autism."

 

FMGWACS.   Think Heather's  You'll get the acronym.

 

It's a short study.  They didn't actually DO research, just correlated data, which is always suspicious, because you can manipulate data.

[Thrillho]

That's my wife's favorite line from her favorite movie. <3

 

But yes, seething with rage.

[CrisciMalosh]

It is a truly disgusting conglomeration of fear mongering, isn't it?

 

I grieve for that poor misunderstood boy. I think all of us affected by the spectrum do. 

[cline]

Be very careful. Most of this stuff is crap "science". Look at population studies and random control trials. And yeah, I'm an expert on the subject.

[CrisciMalosh]

That is exactly my point. Articles like these are full of crap that people believe. People will see this study and think that it somehow proves something, when all it does is show a very weak correlation.

 

It irks me no end.

[Krisis]

Shrug.  We delayed vaccinations because in 2008, they hadn't yet come out and specifically said that autism is NOT caused by vaccines.  I was nervous about putting all that crap into my son's tiny, premature little body.  My mom was furious with me.  But we caught Toby up and he's entering kindergarten fully vaccinated and mildly autistic. 

 

I still think the chicken pox vaccination is a load of crap.  But since we're not really singling out vaccines here, I think it's smart to delay them (or stagger them so they are given one at a time over the course a long time) if you are concerned about the chemicals and yuckies in the vaccinations.  In my case too, I knew we weren't going to be traveling or really going anywhere super germ infested, so I wasn't concerned about Toby getting polio. Probably should have been, but I wasn't.  

 

I'm probably the least concerned, least over protective first time mother you'll ever meet  

[CrisciMalosh]

See, I got the chicken pox in a very private area, as well as in my blood vessels... my sons got that vaccine too. The vaccine also should help protect them from shingles, which are very unpleasant too.

 

But Zander was showing signs within the first weeks of life that he had something going on, before he ever got his first shot. And living in Wyoming, we are a lot more likely to see the scarier of the illnesses... Whooping cough is very prevalent (we get outbreaks every year, and it often shuts down the university for at least a week at a time), and who knows what might come over with the foreign students at the University.

 

I also believe that my kids benefit from the flu shot every year, because the flu can become very serious very quickly... and seeing Zander through 1 bout of flu related pneumonia was bad enough (he was too young for the flu shot)

 

And by making a choice that differs from what doctors want and advise, you were being an overprotective mother in your own right, Krisis. You did what you felt was right for your family, and be damned what other people thought. That takes super mommy protective skills =)

[Rostov]

In the UK there's been a major scandal about an entirely bogus health "scare" about a link between the MMR vaccine (measles, mumps, rubella) and autism and some bowel disorders.  Essentially it was caused by media misreporting of a small study which turned out to be incorrectly carried out, and it's led to a rethink and a fair bit of soul searching about the quality of coverage of health/science issues by the media.  As a result of all this nonsense, there were outbreaks of measles and children died.

 

People are drawn to a narrative about one lone doctor or a small team of maverik scientists, taking on the establishment with their vested interests and hidden agenda.  They side with the underdog, and remember all the times in the history of science where what's now accepted as fact was once held by only a handful of ridiculed people. Unfortunately, they forget all the cranks who were rightly ridiculed for being cranks.  People are right to be suspicious of big pharma, but that doesn't mean that everything is a conspiracy or that everyone who criticises them is right.

 

A big problem with the media coverage of all this was that few people actually understood the issues, and in response went for "balance" and reporting the controversy.  This meant interviewing an anti-vaxxer and a proper scientist, thus giving the entirely false impression of a split scientific community and of disagreement among experts.  Getting people with opposing views to debate an issue is fine for some subjects, especially where there is genuine controversy, but you wouldn't get a Professor of Astrophysics to debate with some lunatic from the Flat Earth Society, because whether the earth is flat or not is not a subject for debate.

 

Incidentally, there has been loads and loads and loads for research about vaccines and autism, and found no evidence at all for a link.  Problem is that it's hard to prove a negative - if there was a link, you could prove it.  If there isn't, all you can say is that you haven't found one.  This means it's easy to muddy the waters and call for more research and give the impression that the jury is still out, when it really isn't.  Incidentally, there's been no reserach to the best of my knowledge about the link between bananas and early onset male baldness.  Science has never shown that there's not a link.  I call for more research.  Buy my book "The Truth about Banana Baldness".

 

With the usual cavaets and cautions about wiki articles, here's the wikpedia article on the MMR "controversy" in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy

[wideeyed]

My husband works for Yahoo!  He is disgusted with them for what they post as "news," so we investigated.  Essentially, the article was self-written, and was posted in the finance section because the author runs a business as a "vaccination advocate."  The study was also self published via Open Source, and not peer reviewed.  To his credit, his original work on the HiB vaccine and Diabetes Type I were published in reputable journals.  Note that the research ONLY inolved the HiB vaccine and diabetes.  Essentially, the study boiled down to, white people get more Type I diabetes.  People in Finland who got the HiB shot had a higher rate of Type I diabetes.  White people also have higher rates of autism.  Therefore, vaccines cause autism. 

 

This is what makes me so fucking angry.  This isn't science.  This is someone trying to sell snake oil for a profit. 

 

In the not so far future, perhaps we'll have genetic testing that indicates whether an infant has a genetic tendency to an auto-immune disorder or mitochondrial disorder that is routinely performed.  THOSE babies, should not be vaccinated.  But if the REST of their peers are vaccinated, they will still be much safer. 

 

Whooping cough is no joke for certain people.  In CA, they recently required all middle and high school students to get a booster.  My son was in 6th grade at the time.  We got on a plane to visit Grandma.  Evan got whooping cough, but was not diagnosed.  His grandmother, who has Crohn's disease and was on immunosuppresant therapy at the time ALSO got whooping cough.  She wound up in the hospital, because she had no immune system to fight it with.  Poor Evan.  He wound up having to get the shot anyway.  He's got Asperger's.  It took four of us to hold him down.  But after taking life science this year, and learning about how vaccines work, he gets his flu shot like a champ

[Thrillho]

I got scarlet fever last year.

 

ME.

 

SCARLET FEVER.

 

AGE 31.

 

Some things will slip through, sadly, and it always causes a panic.  My son has been on immunosuppressants since he was four, and no-one EVER tells us when their kids are sick until after they've all hung out together, despite everyone knowing about my son's weekly injections. It gets very frustrating.

[CrisciMalosh]

Sadly, scarlet fever doesn't have a vaccine yet... and is caused by your simple annoying strep throat bug.

 

I have an aunt that I never visit, because she is on immune suppressants, and I am a strep carrier =/ People should totally respect the immunosuppressant therapies going on